For (almost) all speedruns of Dead Cells, timing stops on entering the fountain in the Throne Room level after the boss fight with the Hand of the King.
In an RTA speedrun, we usually have the option “Skip cut scenes” enabled, since for a Fresh File speedrun, there are up to 6 places (depending on the game version) that this option saves 50 frames per skipped cutscene (saving up to 5 seconds). But one of these cutscenes is also the credits sequence that plays after killing the King and prior to entering the fountain...
Personally, I want to have the credits play at the end of the TAS rather than have it be skipped. If the credits played after entering the fountain (which would happen for an any% NG+ run), then there wouldn’t be any issues. However, for a Fresh File speedrun, credits play after killing the King and before entering the fountain, meaning we would lose about 40 seconds to the credits (on top of the up to 5 seconds lost throughout the run to other cutscenes that are skipped manually instead of automatically).
Here are two encodes that displays the scenario with the credits as well as the movement that plays after the credits:
Does not play credits, skips all cutscenes elsewhere in the run
https://youtu.be/yqoPXEgKW8g
Plays credits, does not skip any cutscenes elsewhere in the run
https://youtu.be/XuPtzwQy9H8
One final note is that we still skip a portion of the credits in the second encode; after the "Special Thanks" section, the game procedurally generates fake credits until the player holds B to continue.
This leads to a few questions:
1) Would having credits play out like this be a valid speed/entertainment tradeoff? Or would it be best to skip all cutscenes to save the 45 seconds? (I’m not concerned about Moons/Vault tiering, since I’m working off of the assumption that the end TAS will be entertaining enough to warrant a speed/entertainment tradeoff like this, but I’d be fine if that assumption is wrong.)
2) What would count as the final input for TAS timing for a Fresh File TAS? The moment we kill the King? or do we default to entering the fountain as the final input as we would for an RTA run? Can we count the movement after the credits as “post-completion input”? The relevant portion of the rules suggests that “Extra input does not change the resulting ending”, which is true, but it also suggests that “Extra input is trivial to execute for anyone replaying the movie”. Is holding B to leave the credits, holding right, pressing A once, and pressing R1 to enter the fountain sufficiently trivial?
For a PC game, can a settings file be provided for an option that is permanently set on first startup, not modifiable from within the game, and not tied to save data?
Iconoclasts has a flag in its data directory called settings, which contains a flag to know if this is the first time you've opened the game. This is used to allow players to skip an intro cutscene before the title screen that is unskippable otherwise, guaranteeing that the player will see it during their first time booting the game. Once the player has selected New Game, and enters a game, this flag is permanently set. Since iconoclasts uses manual saving otherwise, you don't need to save your new game at all (you can essentially close the game right away and generate no save data while still keeping the first_time flag).
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R30hedron wrote:
1) Would having credits play out like this be a valid speed/entertainment tradeoff? Or would it be best to skip all cutscenes to save the 45 seconds? (I’m not concerned about Moons/Vault tiering, since I’m working off of the assumption that the end TAS will be entertaining enough to warrant a speed/entertainment tradeoff like this, but I’d be fine if that assumption is wrong.)
Speed/entertainment trade-offs aren't banned from Vault (as long as you don't go out of your way too much). I think people usually prefer seeing credits if it's an option. But if you opt to skip them as well as all other cutscenes, the game still reaches the proper ending, so it's not a problem.
R30hedron wrote:
2) What would count as the final input for TAS timing for a Fresh File TAS? The moment we kill the King? or do we default to entering the fountain as the final input as we would for an RTA run? Can we count the movement after the credits as “post-completion input”? The relevant portion of the rules suggests that “Extra input does not change the resulting ending”, which is true, but it also suggests that “Extra input is trivial to execute for anyone replaying the movie”. Is holding B to leave the credits, holding right, pressing A once, and pressing R1 to enter the fountain sufficiently trivial?
Doing stuff after credits is indeed post-completion input. The rule says "We always prefer full movies" so it won't be counted against your record in any situation. I personally think completeness and less hassle is better than aiming for digits for the sake of it, especially when the actual ending doesn't happen sooner to reflect those digits.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
ikuyo wrote:
For a PC game, can a settings file be provided for an option that is permanently set on first startup, not modifiable from within the game, and not tied to save data?
Iconoclasts has a flag in its data directory called settings, which contains a flag to know if this is the first time you've opened the game. This is used to allow players to skip an intro cutscene before the title screen that is unskippable otherwise, guaranteeing that the player will see it during their first time booting the game. Once the player has selected New Game, and enters a game, this flag is permanently set. Since iconoclasts uses manual saving otherwise, you don't need to save your new game at all (you can essentially close the game right away and generate no save data while still keeping the first_time flag).
Some systems, such as DOS, expose separate parts of the operating system and/or the game to the user. You are not allowed to manipulate these files except as is normally necessary to play the game, such as "installing" it.
[...]
That means no renaming/copying/deleting/replacing/editing files that affect gameplay. However, editing environment settings or utilizing standard third-party tools in order to get a game to load is allowed as long as the game runs as it's supposed to.
We allow applying cosmetic tweaks via in-game options in PC games, but otherwise it should look like it's the first time you're launching the game, because:
The movie must play the game from the beginning wrote:
Giving yourself a headstart is not allowed. The game must start from a common starting point, which is the very beginning.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Hello judges!
Based on the recent rules change, I'd like to request a rejudgement of #5893: c-square's DOS Mario Teaches Typing "maximum score" in 25:57.78. I can attest that developing and tuning the lua scripts to tas it optimally was certainly not a trivial task.
Also, I was very (happily) surprised to see the rule change. If you're able to share, what was the catalyst that prompted a second look at the blanket 'educational'-title restriction?
I can attest that developing and tuning the lua scripts to tas it optimally was certainly not a trivial task.
Movie Rules wrote:
If a run consists of executing a trivial strategy where the only challenge is having to do it over the course of several rounds, it will still be judged as trivial.
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c-square wrote:
I can attest that developing and tuning the lua scripts to tas it optimally was certainly not a trivial task.
It's impossible to check how hard it has to be to write a sufficient script. It's also hard to compare writing it with just using frameadvance+rerecords. In theory, for any trivial game a script can be arbitrarily complex, and for a hard game it may be impossible to make a tasing script. What we can try comparing is what can be achieved with just trial and error (manual tasing), and how greatly the result varies once you understand the mechanics.
This manual TAS matched in final time with a fully botted run. With highly RNG based games, especially on a hard to set up emulator, getting to try to tas it is already non-trivial, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game provides enough room for an optimization competition (making the record meaningful).
Might still be a good idea to unreject and rejudge it, to see how it stands against the updated rules.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Thanks CasualPokePlayer and feos for your responses. I would appreciate the opportunity make my case on the submission and have it be judged on its merits given the new ruleset.
EDIT: Saw the submission was reopened. Thanks again, feos. I've added my reasoning for publication in the submission comments, and await the judges' feedback/decision.
I have recently made a Family Feud TAS and, since there's a published Family Feud TAS on the site, I'm wondering if this TAS is publishable.
Thanks in advance.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2823
Location: Northern California
It could obsolete the currently published run, but since it's a playaround, obsoletion comes entirely down to audience opinion. The only way anyone's going to know whether or not that would happen is if it's submitted, though, as that's going to put the most eyes on it and allow the most feedback to come in.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I'm going to comment here that while "submit it" is indeed the most direct way to gather significant amounts of feedback, it needs to be realized that for such a movie, making it to publication is still very much an uphill task.
Playarounds very rarely get obsoleted, nor do they get published together if they share the same goal. Obsoleting a playaround requires having a very definite mark of improvement over the previous movie in terms of creativity (or technicality in some cases).
In this particular case, the submission would be weighed against a TAS with a Star, a Recommended for Newcomers flag, Innovative and Funny TAS awards, which is still considered a highly rated, great creative piece of work. That is a very high bar to be measured against, and if you want to contest against it, you need to be sure that you bring a peak product of creativity to the table.
And honestly, as soon as I saw this video posted here, I noticed that it was not up to par (in terms of creativity and humor). But it was submitted anyway, and (quite predictably, tbh) the thread became a bit of a mess. I would have recommended against submitting it, but alas, I was too late.
I guess the bottom line is: trying to get a playaround published (either alongside or obsoleting an existing one of the same category) is really hard. In this case, it might even be practically impossible. The published TAS has a few flaws of jokes that haven't aged well, but coming up with something better is still an enormously difficult task.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/2/2014
Posts: 71
Location: Colorado, USA
Hey, so, I have question. I've been working on a NG+ run of Phoenix Wright, but I was wondering if a clean sram run would be acceptable. What I worry about is triviality. One thing that makes the NG+ run non-trivial is that your inputs have to be spot on for every single text box to maximize speed, but in any%, this is gone, so it does become about speed reading.
My personal opinion would be it's *technically* submittable, only because it's got a definite end, and the interactive parts do require precision to get perfect. Much like a game with copious amounts of cutscenes. Yes, the bulk of the game may be cutscenes, but you still need to play fast in the parts where there aren't, which makes it a legitimate, if boring, speedrun.
No game is perfect, Everything can be broken. - Whoever was on the couch with dwangoAC and Weatherton at AGDQ 2014.
Joined: 8/30/2020
Posts: 43
Location: United Kingdom
Hey, I was just wondering whether the Professor Layton series (or specifically in my case, the fourth game Last Specter) would be eligible to be submitted to the site?
Joined: 4/17/2010
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weils wrote:
Hey, I was just wondering whether the Professor Layton series (or specifically in my case, the fourth game Last Specter) would be eligible to be submitted to the site?
While we're waiting for someone who knows the game, why wouldn't it be acceptable?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
yep2yel wrote:
Hey, so, I have question. I've been working on a NG+ run of Phoenix Wright, but I was wondering if a clean sram run would be acceptable. What I worry about is triviality. One thing that makes the NG+ run non-trivial is that your inputs have to be spot on for every single text box to maximize speed, but in any%, this is gone, so it does become about speed reading.
My personal opinion would be it's *technically* submittable, only because it's got a definite end, and the interactive parts do require precision to get perfect. Much like a game with copious amounts of cutscenes. Yes, the bulk of the game may be cutscenes, but you still need to play fast in the parts where there aren't, which makes it a legitimate, if boring, speedrun.
First of all, it has to be entertaining for NG+ to be published.
Regarding NG, if it's challenging to route and execute, at least in some parts, it's not trivial, and therefore it's acceptable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/30/2020
Posts: 43
Location: United Kingdom
feos wrote:
weils wrote:
Hey, I was just wondering whether the Professor Layton series (or specifically in my case, the fourth game Last Specter) would be eligible to be submitted to the site?
While we're waiting for someone who knows the game, why wouldn't it be acceptable?
Well, I was asking cos for the past couple of days I've been working on this: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/74341255269432343 (very much still a WIP, got 8 more chapters to go), and I'd be interested to know whether an assessment as to this movies eligibility could be made based on what I have?
Joined: 8/30/2020
Posts: 43
Location: United Kingdom
weils wrote:
feos wrote:
weils wrote:
Hey, I was just wondering whether the Professor Layton series (or specifically in my case, the fourth game Last Specter) would be eligible to be submitted to the site?
While we're waiting for someone who knows the game, why wouldn't it be acceptable?
Well, I was asking cos for the past couple of days I've been working on this: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/74341255269432343 (very much still a WIP, got 8 more chapters to go), and I'd be interested to know whether an assessment as to this movies eligibility could be made based on what I have?
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Because of the recent rule changes, I'm a little concerned that my work on an existing TAS will be rejected for reasons which makes it incomplete.
With Bolderdash, there are 5 levels of difficulty with 16 screens each. If you change the level of difficulty, the same screens are presented with variations that make it slightly more difficult...as you increase the level.
What I am currently working on is the hardest level. So I'm not exactly sure if this means I should start with the easiest and progress through to the hardest.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Were the higher difficulties accessed via password? If not it should still be the same.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Memory wrote:
Were the higher difficulties accessed via password? If not it should still be the same.
No, they are a selection at the title screen.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Memory wrote:
If not it should still be the same.
Are you referring to a situation like my Alien 3, where I chose the hardest? With that game, the levels are all the same. The only change is the frequency of alien spawning.
Bolderdash doesn't have an increase of speed or more moving obstacles to avoid, its just differen patterns that forces a route change and different strategies to apply. Does that make the difference?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Does it automatically increment difficulty every loop?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
feos wrote:
Does it automatically increment difficulty every loop?
Yes.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
