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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
warmCabin wrote:
A 1-byte checksum? It's free real estate!
I'm not sure I fully understand this, though. Was a checksum collision not necessary before to get the game to load a corrupted file?
It was not, due to the way the game decided to save. The game saves different chunks of data, and notably separates party data from the main data. And after saving every chunk of data, it proceeds to calculate the full checksum and write it every time... which already appears to really bad. Then it gets worse when you realize that after the main data is saved, the game proceeds to save box data (which is not checksummed) before saving party data... which leads to haha nice 4 frame window for corruption humans can trivally hit.
CasualPokePlayer's explanation is slightly incorrect (and only explains the general idea). The game does checksum current box data, however the issue is that current box data is copied twice during the save process. First, the game copies current box data (as well as other data, but not party data), then checksums the entire save. Then, the game copies current box data AGAIN (and checksums the entire save as well, but that part is irrelevant). Since the current box data is already in the save, the save's checksum will never change since it's copying the exact same data, which gives a reasonable window to reset during saving. A more detailed explanation can be found here.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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The new RTA route which I created (known as FTL) does not break any of the TASVideos 100% rules. The main glitch involves using an invalid Game Corner which reads the prizes from RAM which we can easily modify to give ourselves any Pokémon. If you look at the function which gets the list of prize menus here, you can see that it derives which prize menu to use from the sprite index of the sprite which opened up the prize menu. Using an invalid sprite index will cause the game to read the prize and cost pointers past the end of the list. I've dumped all the invalid game corner prizes and prices in this pastebin. The invalid game corner I use is Game Corner 59, as it is the only game corner which reads its prizes from an item underflow quantity.
As for whether the current FTL route is considered optimal for a TAS, there are a few things to consider. The current route does not use Save Corruption. In Gen 1 Glitched speedruns, save corruption is generally banned due to legacy reasons. It was previously thought that you could not achieve item underflow without corrupting Pokédex flags, and as such it was banned. However, a while ago, gifvex discovered that you could corrupt the number of box items, allowing you to withdraw a []j. x0 and achieve item underflow with that. There are also other considerations. Party Overflow with 255 Pokémon would allow you to access the entirety of WRAM, or more specifically, addresses from $d16b to $fd3f (due to Echo RAM, this is equivalent to accessing $c000-dfff), the caveat being that it is difficult to manipulate single values at a time. One could imagine a setup where you'd swap Pokémon in order to get an NPC with sprite index 59 and with a text pointer that points to the Game Corner byte. Interestingly enough, the fact that Party Overflow cannot access SRAM is actually relevant here. For Game Corner 59, the prices pointer points to SRAM, and thus requires additional setup in the RTA route to set it to a low enough value to buy all remaining Pokémon. This type of distinction points to an issue in what counts as arbitrary memory corruption. Sure, this glitch can access the entirety of WRAM, but it can't access HRAM or SRAM, so it can't corrupt every memory address. This type of ambiguity has generally left me unsatisfied with the Gen 1-2 glitched rules, mainly because I have been unable to resolve it.
If we assume that Save Corruption would be banned, then there isn't much to improve for a TAS. Other than getting perfect RNG, these would be the following potential improvements:
- Use Charmander instead of Bulbasaur: I chose Bulbasaur for the RTA route since getting Brock Through Walls with it is much easier, and I didn't expect anyone to grind the category out seriously. Using Charmander to get BTW is faster as it doesn't require catching a Pidgey. I can't remember off the top of my head if there are any changes to the route if Charmander was used instead of Bulbasaur.
- Missingno Backsprite corruption: In the RTA route, you're supposed to intentionally crash the game in order to set $a7ce (the price of the Game Corner prize slot which you buy from) to a low enough value such that you can buy every remaining Pokémon. There's a hypothetical strategy I've thought of, which involves viewing Missingno's backsprite. Missingno's backsprite can corrupt memory to $a7ce. The problem in an RTA run is that Missingno's backsprite reads from VRAM. Under normal conditions, VRAM is only readable at certain periods per scanline (known as HBlank and Mode 2). This means that getting a good backsprite corruption would rely on "VRAM RNG". While a manipulation may be possible, I don't have the knowledge to create manips, and I wasn't even sure if it was possible to get a value of 0 (the desired value) into $a7ce. For a TAS, such a strategy is worth exploring to see if it is doable.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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FractalFusion wrote:
I found out about this ever since I tried to figure out exactly why memory was being filled with FFs during the glitch. What gets me the most is not that my TASes are invalid, but that as far as I know, in the 8 or so years that this category had been extensively studied, nobody made any attempt to raise this issue.
I'm not sure of the history of the save corruption glitch, but my guess behind what happened is that nobody had really known how save corruption worked other than the results. So when the first TAS was made, it was assumed that the only prerequisite was to be on a New Game, and it was just a lack of interest or motivation that nobody bothered to actually look into it.
I actually took the time to properly figure out how Save Corruption works back in April. The reason it works is due to the save routine being improperly structured in its copies. The explanation is as follows:
The modified portions of the savefile when saving through the Start Menu, in order, are as follows:
- Player Name
- "Main Data"
- Sprite Data
- Party Data
- Current Box Data
- Tileset Type
- One Save Checksum encompassing all of the save data listed here
With no savefile, these would basically be whatever SRAM was when selecting New Game (filled with $FF after a clear save).
The game calls three routines to save data. These are:
1. Copy Player Name, "Main Data", Sprite Data, Current Box Data, and Tileset Type to SRAM, then checksum all of this data.
2. Copy Current Box Data (again) to SRAM, then checksum all of this data.
3. Copy Party Data and Pokedex Data (Pokedex Data included in "Main Data") to SRAM, then checksum all of this data.
The issue is due to two aspects of these routines. Firstly, Party Data is never copied to the Save File, yet the game will checksum the entire save, thereby treating the uninitialized Party Data as valid. Secondly, Current Box Data is copied again. As the Current Box Data will never change between copies, the save file between the first and second copy will be the exact same, thus the checksum will always be valid during the entirety of the second copy. This gives a large enough window (2 frames) for a TAS with frame input windows (as well as a human) to hard reset.
A potential solution for the save corruption TASes would be to allow an SRAM state that can be generated by a "clear save option", although I don't know if this would cause any more controversy.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Excellent work, Yes vote!
From what I can understand, you did this for comfirming the validity of the glitch execution, right? If that's so, then there is no need to do it for the submitted movie, since it's up to the Judges to check if a glitch used is legit or caused by emulation inconsistences. It's more something that an RTA attempt would need, for proving the validity of the run. I apprecciate the attempt to make the glitch setup less questionable, but it should be rather provided as an auxiliary movie file, in the submission text.
The setup only works if (large portions of) SRAM is filled with $00s. Clearing save data does this action, otherwise the glitch would rely on uninitialized SRAM, which can have multiple non-deterministic values.
It's also important to note that BizHawk fills SRAM with $ff by default. A collision which aims for $ffff is possible, but would require a different strat to achieve.
The specific comment by gifvex is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the "validity" of the Pokémon Gen 1 Save Corruption TASes on a real cartridge with uninitialized SRAM, but I won't get into that discussion here.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Would it be possible to resync this movie for removing the part in which you clear the save data, or is that necessary for the specific glitch setup you used? In the first case we could replace the movie file in this submission, while in the second case the submission would have chances to be accepted as it is.
I'm not sure how resyncing works in TASes, but I know that all of gifvex's TASes are botted out, so it would simply require re-botting the TAS without the steps to clear save data anyway. However, as I mentioned, not clearing save data would mean relying on uninitialized SRAM and would need a different setup altogether for the collision.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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grassini wrote:
Lucky, do it in GEN2 next please!
Gen 2 would be slightly more substantial and would require actual routing, although it would still make heavy use of this mass farming glitch (although not as fast as LWA), which obtains four Pokémon Eggs with internal IDs that do not correspond to key items or mail (which can be found here). Pokémon that correspond to key items or mail would use a slower setup that shifts move IDs into the species byte. As the glitch isn't as fast, some Pokémon would still be obtained through normal catching means, although it's unknown which Pokémon would be caught over farmed. Regardless, there are many more "unobtainables" in Gen 2 than Gen 1, thus requiring more mandatory farming. Note that the video does not go over some preparation, including getting and duplicating the hybrid Egg/Sentrets, and hatching the Eggs.
Also, while I did do the majority of the routing for this TAS, gifvex was the one that implemented the TAS into an input file, using his scripting TAS setup for Pokémon Red/Blue. As mentioned in the submission comments, gifvex chose not to be listed as an author "because Pokémon is primarily routing-based and LWA is [luckytyphlosion's] creation".
Fortranm wrote:
If this movie gets rejected, it's probably better to make the coop diploma run obsolete the Gotta Catch 'Em All branch, as it has lost its meaning at this point.
This is probably the best outcome for this submission (although this still might qualify for Vault). The TAS was mainly made to highlight the absurdity of Catch 'Em All as a speedrun. MrWint had said it well in his response to this TAS.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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ais523 wrote:
I'm interested in how you managed to get a different Pokémon to be caught each time with the glitch. Where's the species number being read from?
Species number is read from the Master Ball count, and the custom mart buffer overflow copies it to wEnemyMonSpecies2.
ais523 wrote:
Anyway, this reminds me of previous April 1 submissions in which the player has edited a cheat engine into the game using Arbitrary Code Execution and used it to complete a non-any% goal. In this case, the glitch family used is Arbitrary Memory Corruption, not Arbitrary Code Execution, but the end result is fairly similar. These sorts of glitches are often looked for to exploit non-game programs, and so quite a lot of effort has been put into mitigating them; in particular, most modern home computers now ban executing RAM altogether by default. However, it turned out not to stop ACE-like bugs, because AMC is normally just as powerful (just harder to use). This run is a demonstration of that general principle.
This actually isn't an instance of AMC, as the destination of the buffer overflow is fixed (although the source is arbitrarily specifiable, making it a lot easier to utilize unlike earlier capture glitches such as Cooltrainer which use a screen tile buffer as its source). There are indeed ways to obtain AMC without ACE using Item Underflow, though.
ais523 wrote:
At this point, I don't think the category is meaningful unless you ban memory corruption altogether (i.e. buffer overflows and similar effects that can cause a RAM address to be written to by code that isn't meant to write to it). I'm not sure if the goal is still possible under those circumstances, but it might be, e.g. the Old Man glitch would probably still be legal (as although the memory addresses involved are being written with one purpose and interpreted as another, they're still being used for their intended purpose in both cases).
It is possible, but the amount of glitches allowed would be very minimal. Off the top of my head, the only glitches you'd be able to use would be Trainer-Fly, Safari Zone WTW, and Old Man glitch. You wouldn't even be able to encounter Missingno., as its sprite overflows into Hall of Fame data, and its seen Pokédex flag erroneously sets the 7th bit of the 6th item's quantity in the inventory (causing the well-known item duplication).
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Patashu wrote:
EDIT: Also, while I'm thinking about it. If an additional restriction was added, disallowing catching pokemon outside of starting a battle (and thus banning the glitch used in this TAS), would the run still be trivial?
Off the top of my head, no. Even by using "out of battle" glitch items, the item cursor would still be reset and you'd have to scroll down to the item quantity which corresponds to the caught Pokémon, which would probably be slower than catching wild Pokémon (although it would still beat out some other catch methods).
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
BizHawk 2.2.2 does not support subframe inputs, which are used to bootstrap multiple bytes in a single frame from controller input. I'm also not sure how one would go about replaying subframe inputs to a console.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Great job on the new TAS! Although I was too late to vote, (I did anyway) I really liked the new discovery to get to the Elite Four without any badges.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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You could always death warp from a Pokemon from the Route 7 Grass instead of Fainting from Poison.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Actually, missing a Poke Ball, then catching it does not duplicate the Poke Balls twice. You still need to use an in-Battle item to get 255 of an item.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Why am I not the slightest bit surprised that someone actually made another PI TAS?
FractalFusion wrote:
On the way to Lavender Town, there is a Poke Ball you can pick up, but since we're getting X Attacks, it is better to do so at the Mart.
The city's name is Violet City, not Lavender Town.
In all honesty, the TAS wasn't that interesting to me. It's a little fun, but isn't that entertaining. Meh vote for me.
I'd like to see an "Executes arbitrary code" TAS to make Mew appear under the truck. That would be very interesting to see.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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First of all, welcome to the forums!
Now, there are problems with the route you chose.
The big thing is you can't use it, because the only reason the Coin Case glitch works is because of a translation programming error.
Read more about it here.
http://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php/topic,6716.0.html
The box names are also for RTA gold glitched, which would take longer than the current TAS route (you would need to buy x specials in Goldenrod, use them, go back to goldenrod and then go to the poke center)
Running on Japanese Games would take away the entertainment because some people wouldn't understand what the text would say and running Japanese versions for faster text is not a good notion to hold.
Also, since Japanese characters have different hex values than the english letters, you would need to write a whole new program.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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MrWint wrote:
I havn't routed this myself, yet, but you seem to require a lot of wild encounters to boost your EVs. Maybe going for Special EV of 0x136 instead of 0x236 is faster (ways to save EV are e.g. catching a wild as EV drain and/or losing to rival).
Then you would fight a wild Weedle, a Pidgey later, and catch a Clefairy to deal with the Rocket you need to fight. It may be faster, but I don't count on it. Switching also takes too long.
MrWint wrote:
Other smaller route variants are probably not that important for now, first you need to make sure the code execution works at all. There are so many things that may screw up your code execution, some of which I didn't even mention in my submission text (like the position on the map is not arbitrary). At least you'll likely need a different means of manipulating register h than me, the name I chose to do it was dependent on the register values and they are probably different. When you have the conditions for the code execution figured out, then you can start routing with these constraints in mind. Also, my way of getting the byte where I wanted it is surely by no means the only one, maybe looking for a different code execution approach (maybe with less setup time) is worth while.
I was thinking that it may be would be faster to directly execute the Hall of Fame. I may look into it.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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MrWint wrote:
I'm not sure what your conclusion is here, but my values are definitely correct, I checked the RAM after beating the trainer.
I guess I read the exp values wrong.
Since it isn't possible to defeat the Bug Catcher anymore, the EV spread Charmander goes through would be (first number is amount given in each fight, , second amount is the amount Charmander has right now:
Da Jerk Rival: 50|50
Level 2 Rattata: 25|75 (Fighting a wild Pokemon before the Weedle Fight allows you to jump from Level 6 to 8, which allows you to get ember one level earlier. Level 2's are easier to defeat, and Rattata is required for the correct EVs)
Weedle Bug Catcher (Weedle): 20|95
First Bug Catcher on Route 3 (Caterpie, Weedle, Caterpie): 20, 20, 20 (60)|155
Shorts Guy (Rattata, Wraphax Ekans): 25, 40 (65)|220
Lass (Rattata, Nidoran-M): 25, 40 (65)|285
Done Like Dinner Bug Catcher (Caterpie, Metapod): 20, 25 (45)|330
Level 5 Spearow (Needed for its odd Special Value of 31): 31|361
Paras x2 (Again for their special value): 110|471
Rocket in Ether room (Zubat, Ekans): 40, 40 (80)|551
Half a Geodude (Switch out from Charmander to Mew and use Water Gun): 15|566
The Route would look something like this:
1. Use the same route until after delivering Oak's Parcel.
2. Defeat a Rattata for Exp. and Special EV.
3. Defeat Weedle Guy.
4. Buy one Poke Ball (For Mew)
5. Fight the First Bug Catcher, get Ember one Level Earlier.
6. Defeat all mandatory trainers and fight the Lass instead of the Bug Catcher. The special EV of Charmander should be 330.
7. Defeat a Level 5 Spearow for Special EV.
8. Pick up TM12 and Blackout Trainer Fly on the Bug Catcher. It should be a Level 10 Zubat with 0 DV Speed (so Charmander can hit itself in confusion first).
9. Defeat 2 Paras to increase Special DV.
10. Defeat Rocket in Ether Room and pick up Ether. Special EV increases.
11. Encounter a Level 12 Clefairy with 21 Special, and run away.
12. Catch Mew
12.5. Teach Mew Water Gun.
13. Encounter a Geodude, switch to Mew, use Water Gun.
14. Walk to the green ladder here
15. Swap Mew with Charmander and defeat 3 Geodudes. Mew should be Level 10 by then.
16. Fight the closest Rocket, use Transform, Raticate uses Hyper Fang but doesn't defeat Mew.
17. Swap Tackle with Hyper Fang, have Raticate make Mew faint, switch in Charmander, have Raticate make Charmander faint, death warp to Poke Center.
18. Deposit Charmander and walk back into Mt. Moon.
19. Win.
Or another route, with these minor changes.
- In Pewter Poke Mart, buy a Poke Ball and an Escape Rope
- Don't pick up TM12
- After you get Mew, switch Mew to the front, encounter a level 8 Geodude in B1F, switch out to Charmander and defeat it with Ember.
- Defeat 3 Level 12 Zubats.
- Escape rope out.
- Deposit Charmander
- Fight the Clefairy Lass, use Transform, swap first and third move.
- Defeat Clefairy.
- Use Cooltrainer move.
- Win.
If anyone knows any possible route improvements (other than these), don't hesitate to suggest.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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MrWint wrote:
You miscalculated slightly, the correct values are
7C 00 00 00 00 07 07 78 6A 00 00 00 2E 5E 00 02 D9 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 98 88 1E 00 00 00 09 00 1D 00 0A 00 10 00 0B 00 0A
There is a problematic D9 (reti) byte, seems the trainer must be avoided.
The Caterpie and Weedle lines are in the Medium Fast Experience Group, not Medium Slow, despite being a 3-Stage Evolutionary line. Ironically, the Medium Fast Group takes longer to grow from Level 1 to 68 than the Medium Slow group does.
You're right about the Speed and Special Stats. Generation 1 keeps getting me confused about stat order.
Also, I was wondering if using a wild encounter for the arbitrary code would be faster than using Charmander, because after fighting all mandatory trainers and a Pidgey/Rattata before the first Bug Catcher (the small exp. from Pidgey allows to jump from Level 6 to 8 after the first Bug Catcher), Charmander is 121 short from 566 (0x0236). Would it be faster to use a different Pokemon as the boxed Pokemon, so Charmander's DVs could be manipulated to be higher? Having 54 (0x0036) for the special EV can be easily achieved by fighting two Paras and switching out to split the special EV into 27.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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FractalFusion wrote:
A wild Pokemon that can poison the player. Weedle (Silver, day time), or Spinarak (Gold, night time).
Death warping will be interesting, but the only place I can think of is from Falkner's Gym to the Violet Pokemon Center.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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BioSpark wrote:
i don't think you understand. by executing arbitrary code, he can do just about anything with the game. it would probably be easy to set bellsprout's attack and speed to some ridiculously high number to fight red.
I already know he could, but this was like an alternative in case he couldn't make a program to edit values of a Pokemon. He also has restrictions (assuming using the same code in the TAS) with his bootstrapping code which are: 1. You can't produce bytes ending with 0xF (0x1F, 0x2F, 0x3F etc.) and 2. the program can only be 256 bytes long.
If you were to change Bellsprout to defeat RED's team, you would hack Bellsprout to have 188+ speed (faster than any Pokemon of RED's team), change its level to 100 and either change his moveset to Horn Drill with one PP up applied or change its attack to 999 and hack away with cut.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Chamale wrote:
While this would work, Geodude would have to go up all 99 levels individually. Zanoab is right, it's faster to glitch one of your Pokémon to a higher level anyway.
I guess so. I was thinking about glitching a Geodude if it wasn't possible to change the species index and level of a Pokemon, which then you could use the Celebi Egg glitch a level 1 Geodude/Other Pokemon in the Medium Slow Experience group Egg.
FractalFusion wrote:
I'm doing a test run right now, so I'm just using Gold. However, I had the idea that Silver might be faster based on an event that can be done during day time in Silver, but requires night time in Gold (which takes longer to set). It depends on if there are any other factors that depend on time of day.
What event are you talking about?
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Since the new TAS won't reach RED (Rival) in Cerulean, I've decided to break down the data of the level 9 Metapod. (4th Pokemon of one of the Bug Catchers)
Index No. - 7C
Current HP value - 00 00
??? - ?? (It doesn't say on datacrystal)
Status Effect - 00
Type 1 - 07 (Bug)
Type 2 - 07 (Bug)
Catch Rate - 78
Move 1 - 6A (Harden)
Move 2 - 00 (None)
Move 3 - 00 (None)
Move 4 - 00 (None)
Trainer ID - 2E 5E
Total Experience - 00 01 A3
HP EV - 00 00
Attack EV - 00 00
Defense EV - 00 00
Speed EV - 00 00
Special EV - 00 00
Attack/Defense IV (Combined as one byte) - 98
Speed/Special IV (Combined as one byte) - 88
PP of Move 1 - 1E
PP of Move 2 - 00
PP of Move 3 - 00
PP of Move 4 - 00
Level - 09
Total HP - 00 1D
Attack - 00 0A
Defense - 00 10
Speed - 00 0A
Special - 00 0B
As raw data:
7C 00 00 ?? 00 07 07 78 6A 00 00 00 2E 5E 00 01 A3 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 98 88 1E 00 00 00 09 00 1D 00 0A 00 10 00 0A 00 0B
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Zanoab wrote:
luckytyphlosion wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
Fishaman P wrote:
This is where we differ. Console runners require Red, so the TAS should too.
I agree, but only because it'll make the commenters on Youtube stop saying "now make a run that beats Red" or something. :P
If you really wanted the TAS to beat Red, you could always glitch a Level 1 Geodude and underflow it from level 1 to 100 (yes Experience Underflow works in GSC too).
You still are beating RED, it's just that the battle ends instantly because you don't have any Pokemon in your party.
Why bother with a geodude? You could literally modify bellsprout into anything you want.
Geodude gets Rollout, which doubles its power after every use, up to 5 turns. Eventually, it turns from a 30 base power to a 480 base power move.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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jlun2 wrote:
Fishaman P wrote:
This is where we differ. Console runners require Red, so the TAS should too.
I agree, but only because it'll make the commenters on Youtube stop saying "now make a run that beats Red" or something. :P
If you really wanted the TAS to beat Red, you could always glitch a Level 1 Geodude and underflow it from level 1 to 100 (yes Experience Underflow works in GSC too).
You still are beating RED, it's just that the battle ends instantly because you don't have any Pokemon in your party.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Warp wrote:
With one participant, sure. With two participants, if they cooperate or make a deal that only one of them inputs moves, sure.
With 50 thousand participants? Theoretically possible, but I'd rather have something more interesting happen in anarchy mode than the stream spending weeks at one place and the viewership dropping to single-digits, after which nobody else is interested anymore.
There's something paradoxical about your logic.
If the stream gets too boring, people will start to leave, but then due to decreased viewer count, people will actually cooperate better and the stream will get popular again.
I can't comment much on the stream anymore since my computer can't handle the lag anymore, but the democracy/anarchy argument isn't really needed. The creator of the stream added it because he thought it would be better, and when he realized it wasn't as good, he slowly made it so democracy mode wouldn't be used as much, and it went to the point where democracy mode is rarely used now since it is only activated once every hour and if the majority of people don't want it on, they can just vote "anarchy" and the stream changes back to anarchy (if anarchy is the highest voted option).
Warp wrote:
But it got me thinking about a more interesting project: A bot that uses some heuristics to try to beat the game. Something like pre-programmed intermediate goals that the bot should try to achieve (ie. like "reach this point", "do this", and so on), and then it uses semi-random movements that prefer movements that go in the particular direction of the next goal. (Just purely going to that direction isn't going to work unless it has a full path-finding algorithm and other logic that would be quite complicated.)
This would, in fact, kind of simulate TPP.
It would resemble a very slow Let's Play more because the bot ignores real world factors (stream delay, lag, messages being eaten etc.)
jlun2 wrote:
Well....
http://www.twitch.tv/rngplayspokemon
This managed to beat Johto E4, so I'm sure complete anarchy would eventually be able to beat the game as well, just that it might take a while...
But that stream was played at 3500% speed, so it would take an extreme amount of time to complete, assuming you use only anarchy.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Posts: 34
Location: Canada
You have 3 options.
1. Find another DS and do a Trade Evolution.
2. Catch one in Twist Mountain or Clay Tunnel in dust clouds, although they are only accessible after beating the E4.
3. Send Pokemon from this server http://www.pokegts.us/Default.aspx into your game using the GTS by manually specifying the DNS address.
Too bad the trade evolution glitch doesn't work anymore.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.
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Joined: 3/2/2014
Posts: 34
Location: Canada
When I saw the submission for Gold glitched, I thought it used the any% glitched route, until I realized that you rerouted the whole "game" with a faster route.
Yes vote for me.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game.
Meh vote.