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Posted: 8/2/2006 1:14 PM
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Chef_Stef
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Tompa wrote:
Oh, have forgot that you are using Save&Quit warps. Aren't there a lot of places where you could have saved time that way?
S&Q warps you to the outside of the cave or room you last exited.In most cases, this is impractical, either taking me back too far or putting me in a place I don't want to be.
Tompa wrote:
Your progress looks fine. But is it really faster to go right instead of left when you shall go and get the honey? Seams longer to me...
Going right allows me to dash in better places; screen directions right/up/up/left/up are convenient for some careful dashing. But I still don't see what you mean by "going left"...
Posted: 8/2/2006 4:49 PM
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Tompa
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Well, going up+left, hehe. And then continue the way to the honey=). Did you understand my dungeon 6 route?
Posted: 8/2/2006 5:57 PM
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Chef_Stef
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Okay, I see what you mean. I'm not sure it's faster, but it might be. I'll check on that. And yes, the dungeon 6 route clears things up a bit.
Posted: 8/2/2006 7:37 PM
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Tompa
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You should use S&Q after obtaining the Key 4, so you can skip the stupid owl.
Posted: 8/3/2006 2:45 AM
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Chef_Stef
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Do you mean the angler's key, or the face key? I tested and your up/left way is faster by maybe 200 frames. I also made the Tarin part and the part up to animal village more entertaining... I'll post a WIP once I get a bit more done.
Posted: 8/3/2006 4:02 AM
Post subject: yay
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pirate_sephiroth
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yeah! yeah! wip!
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.
Posted: 8/3/2006 4:36 AM
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Chef_Stef
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Newest WIP, it's up to about the same place as before: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1516/Through%20Marin%202.vbm I can't believe how the little things add up... I redid some places where I could adjust my position better while charging the boots. The new version is 417 frames (7 seconds) faster. The part with Tarin is entertaining :) I am still in dashing state when talking to Tarin, so Link has his sword out while watching Tarin run around (You'll notice I cut a patch of grass when turning to watch him automatically). Also note that I am still running in the same direction after Tarin leaves, so I dash "backwards" into the tree to knock the honeycomb down.
Posted: 8/3/2006 5:45 AM
(Edited: 8/9/2006 9:49 PM)
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Tompa
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Looks very good. I hope you are able to use the "double bomb" glitches and kill the Angler's Key boss. You can kill him with either 2 bombs, 2 arrows or 8 slashes with the sword. A bomb does 5 damage and an 4. But if you aren't able to kill him with "a" double bomb you can use one bomb, one charge with the sword and one regular hit. Bombarrows would have been the best thought... I need to change some things in the bomb/arrow using then. EDIT: Bah, I have forgot to add one thing to my bomb/arrow using. I've totally missed the last bombwall you blow to get the last key in Key Cavern. Have to change some more things then. Let's see... EDIT 2: Have updated it again. Here is the new use:
(20) Bombs and (20) Arrows at start. The (19) is how many you got left. Overworld = 1 bombarrow (19 bombs 19 arrows) for pig. Kanalet = 4 arrows for Bomb Enemy (15) 1 bombarrow and one arrow (18 bombs 13arrows) for hidden knight. 2 arrows(11) for ball%chain enemy. D3 = 3 bombs(15) for mini boss. 1 bombarrow(14 bombs 10arrows) for knightmare key. 1 bomb(13) for Clock Bombs here you will get three new bombs(16). One bombarrow for wall (15 bombs 9 arrows). Overworld = Set a bomb(14) and kill the moldorm with sword. D4 = 1 bombarrow(13 bombs 8 arrows) to blow bombblock. D5 = Tactic for Skeleton Master: Phase 1: Lay bomb, slash him into it, shoot an bombarrow and lay another bomb. Phase 2 and 3: Lay bomb and slash him into it and lay another bomb. Phase 4: Lay bomb, slash him into it and two bombarrows. 1 bomb refill that you shall take. Just one room away Left-Up-Right from second Skeleton Knight. (12 bombs and 5 arrows left.) D6 = Bomb(11) switch (If it's faster with hookshot glitch, use that instead) bombarrow(10 bombs 4 arrows) wall, bombarrow moldorm and lay a bomb for the wizzrobes (8 bombs 3 arrows) use Hookshot glitch so you don't need to bomb switch again (Not needed but if it is faster you shall do it) , arrow and bombrefill (18 bombs 13 arrows). When you lift the jar to open the door, take one bomb (19). 2 bombarrows (17 bombs 11 arrows) to kill wizzrobes to get a key, use hookshot glitch to take a shortcut through the dungeon and skip the miniboss. 2 bombarrows for rabbits (15 bombs and 9 arrows) 6 bombs (9) to kill the mini mini boss. Go and get the nightmare key and jump down to get the key from the chest then teleport back to start. Go left and back to the switch room, continue to the room with the arrow refill and Wizzrobes, take the arrows (21). Go back to the right and up the stairs. Do the Hookshot glitch again to get down to the jar and horseheads. Go right and continue to the boss room. Kill him with 5 bombs (4). Overworld = 1 bombarrow to get into Flame cave (3 bombs 20 arrows) D8 = 1 bombarrow (2 bombs 19 arrows) for switch room. Shoot the switch with an arrow (18) 2 bombarrows (0 bomb 16 arrows) needed for walls. 1 arrow(15) for statue to get key. Go down and get the bombs/arrows refills. (10 bombs 25 arrows) D7 = 2 bombarrows (8 bombs 24 arrows) to get to the last pillar. D4 = For the boss you can use three bombarrows to kill him really fast (5 bombs and 21 arrows). Last boss = 16 arrows (5 arrows left)
Another thing that I started to think about: Have you calculated how many enemies you shall kill to get a PoP where you need it most? I haven't given this so many thoughts...
Posted: 8/3/2006 1:22 PM
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Chef_Stef
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Tompa wrote:
Looks very good. I hope you are able to use the "double bomb" glitches and kill the Angler's Key boss. You can kill him with either 2 bombs, 2 arrows or 8 slashes with the sword. A bomb does 5 damage and an 4. But if you aren't able to kill him with "a" double bomb you can use one bomb, one charge with the sword and one regular hit. Bombarrows would have been the best thought... I need to change some things in the bomb/arrow using then.
I think I can charge my sword, drop a bomb above me using the glitch, and jump in spinslashing. That shouldn't be too much trouble, I hope...
2 bombarrows (17 bombs 13arrows) for hidden knight.
I only used one bombarrow for the initial blast (to get the knight un-hidden), then I used one regular arrow. It's hard to see, but I'm pretty sure I do save one bomb here. Does this affect your counts in any way?
Tompa wrote:
Another thing that I started to think about: Have you calculated how many enemies you shall kill to get a PoP where you need it most? I haven't given this so many thoughts...
The way I do it, I just kill any enemies I can reach as I complete the game in the TAS. When I find out which gives a piece of power, I can either quit killing enemies and save it for an opportune moment, or I can revert back 2-3 enemies so I can kill the best one for the piece of power. So far, this has happened in different ways for the 2 PoP's: 1) The moblin boss. I knew I had to get one eventually, so I just made sure to kill any enemy in the forest I could reach, as you probably noticed. It just happened to work perfectly on my first try. 2) 3rd dungeon. In the first version, before I redid dungeon 2, I found that the knight by the crow with the golden leaf gave me the piece of power. Therefore, I just avoided him and "saved" the PoP drop until dungeon 3, although avoiding him actually lost me time. In the new version, I planned out the drop better and killed the "best" enemy for the drop in dungeon 3, as you can see.
Posted: 8/3/2006 1:31 PM
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Tompa
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Oh, totally missed that you didn't use one more bomb on the knight, shall update my post right away. Ok, I will change to your version and calculate the bombs/arrows again:). EDIT: In dungeon 6... you can use the hookshot to press the first switch if that is faster. It saves a bomb and with that I may figure out a better route for them. EDIT 2: Ok, the route is now updated a bit more. EDIT 3: Haha, found a new bug. I got two Angler Keys http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1521/Two%20Angler%20keys.vbm When the text that said I had got the key disappeared the key fell down. I still got the key in my inventory, but there is still one more. If you are able to it you can do so in your run, that the key falls down after the text. Another edit: When coming back to Angler's Cavern; you can use three bombarrows to kill him really quick. Two bombarrows can hit him before he starts to speak, hehe.
Posted: 8/4/2006 4:43 AM
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Chef_Stef
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Through getting the ballad of the wind fish: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1527/Testrun3.vbm Notes: For the Angler Key boss, I dropped a bomb, spinslashed, and slashed once to kill it. I switch to feather so I can jump one frame before collecting the key and thus be in midair :) This keeps me from moving up and the key from falling down. That way, I can S&Q warp back to the village. Also, S&Q from getting the Ballad is 200 frames faster than just walking back to the warp hole.
Posted: 8/4/2006 6:55 AM
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Tompa
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Very good. Let's run like crazy to dungeon 4 :D. EDIT: One thing just come up in my head... You can skip the text in the beginning of every dungeon by pressing start. Like in dungeon 2 you could have pressed start in the beginning and switched to the powder, this earns some sec.
Posted: 8/6/2006 5:07 AM
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Chef_Stef
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Through the Mambo: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1536/Testrun3.vbm Tompa, can you explain to me why it's a good idea to leave dungeon 4 incomplete until later? I've been wondering...
Posted: 8/6/2006 9:31 AM
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Tompa
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Because the ghost won't appear then. That's why you shall take the boss later. Your segment looks good. Only thing that you could to faster is the bug I made when getting the Mambo (If you watch my 100% you'll see...) You can float in the air while they are dancing so you get closer to the exit. Be in the air when start talking to them, swing you sword to the left and press left. (I think it's something like that anyway, hehe.)
Posted: 8/9/2006 3:07 PM
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Chef_Stef
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Quick question: I am able to beat the master skeleton relatively quickly saving an extra arrow using this strategy: Charge sword, switch to bombs/arrows, drop a bomb while spinslashing, bomb explodes, bombarrow, drop another bomb and let that explode. Is it worth it in the long run (like, could I save extra time on a future boss by having more arrows) to save 4 extra arrows, or is it better to just use them for bombarrows on the master skeleton?
Posted: 8/9/2006 5:01 PM
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Tompa
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The tactic I have so far on the skeleton is: Slash with sword before he starts to talk, shoot bombarrows so he has one hit left, and on the last hit you lay a bomb instead of a bombarrow. And so far that I know so isn't there any bosses that you can save time on... The only thing that works on buss 5 is the sword, so far I know. The Face Key boss need a total of 12 arrows, and you won't earn that many. And there are no enemies either I think...
Posted: 8/9/2006 9:28 PM
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Maur
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Would probably be better to lay the bomb before he comes down and hit him into it. Also, be sure to time the difference between killing him and letting him get up + jump away. I did the latter to save arrows, you're saving one already. I haven't been keeping up with this run because I simply don't like l+r. I'll watch it once it's finished, but... yeah. I stopped trying to make my own because I went on vacation and, when I got back, I knew I'd never catch up with you. Best of luck, chef.
Posted: 8/9/2006 9:39 PM
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Tompa
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Good point Maur. Lay a bomb, slash him with sword into it, use a bombarrow and then another bomb. And at the last phase you can lay a bomb first and then two bombarrows. This will be just as fast and you will earn a total of four arrows. Then the two at the Face Key can be skipped taken, as they are losing time anyway. I'll update my bomb/arrow route again. EDIT: He don't need to save more arrows now. Because there is not place, so far that I know, that he can use arrows to save more time on.
Posted: 8/10/2006 2:10 AM
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Chef_Stef
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Tompa, that's what I was suggesting in the first place; bomb, bombarrow, then drop another bomb. Are you saying I should use that strategy?
Posted: 8/10/2006 6:51 AM
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Tompa
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It didn't sound on your explanation that that was the tactic you were going to use... But yes, you should. As long as you hit the 3/2 hits that's neccesary before he comes up again that it doesn't matter what method you are using. As long as it isn't the fast phase. Bomb, slash into the bomb, 2 bombarrows.
Posted: 8/10/2006 1:20 PM
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Chef_Stef
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I'm still pretty confused, so I just made a WIP with the first plan in mind. I think dropping a bomb will waste ~3-4 seconds x3, and I'm not sure that time lost is worth it. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1572/Testrun3.vbm, Let me know if it's really much better to save that arrow... I think it looks awesome to kill the boss this fast using the old strategy of 2 bombarrows, but that's just me.
Posted: 8/10/2006 1:59 PM
(Edited: 8/10/2006 2:08 PM)
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spockybiemmichab
Joined: 3/17/2006
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I liked it. Didn't know that Save&Quit is so much faster than the Mambo. For all who want to watch this: The filename has a comma at the end so you must rename the file to watch it. (just for information...)
Posted: 8/10/2006 2:05 PM
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evilchen
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you still rape the poor link and make him appear to 50% only ;/ ive noticed you run into the keydoor - looks like it slows you down a bit?? does it?
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 8/10/2006 2:25 PM
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Tompa
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If you use that many bombarrows for it your arrows will go out, and you'll have to take a long way to go and get more. And also; for phase 2/3 is only 2 hits neccesary. You also forgot to take the bombs Left-Up-Right from the second Skeleton fight, you need those. You need at least 3 arrows at the end of the dungeon... I can post you a wip on the tactic that I was thinking about. Another thing... Is it possible to skip the enddialog at the skeleton by pressing Start or S/Q? Can you avoid getting hit by the enemy when pushing the block to get the key at start? The caused you to lose time... EDIT: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1574/Skeleton%20Tactic.vbm Here is the tactic for Phase 1. On Phase two you can do the same way, but no arrows this time. Then you don't need to take time and enter the Start menu. And for the last phase you can just shoot 3 bombarrows, or if you like; lay a bomb first. And here is for the second phase, and also the bombs you need http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1575/Phase%20two%20and%20bombs.vbm Another thing that I was thinking about... Someone should make a better version of the Screen Skip version of this game. As you can take the sword faster now. That will save some secs:).
Posted: 8/10/2006 7:09 PM
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Chef_Stef
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Tompa wrote:
Another thing... Is it possible to skip the enddialog at the skeleton by pressing Start or S/Q? Can you avoid getting hit by the enemy when pushing the block to get the key at start? The caused you to lose time...
I hadn't known at the time that you could still push a block while in midair, but this is now fixed. I checked the text-skipping, but I can't skip it...
Tompa wrote:
EDIT: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1574/Skeleton%20Tactic.vbm Here is the tactic for Phase 1. On Phase two you can do the same way, but no arrows this time. Then you don't need to take time and enter the Start menu. And for the last phase you can just shoot 3 bombarrows, or if you like; lay a bomb first. And here is for the second phase, and also the bombs you need http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1575/Phase%20two%20and%20bombs.vbm
I'll watch your videos once I can get to a computer that can download from that site, but is this the route you were thinking of? Phase1: bomb, bombarrow, bomb Phase2: bomb x2, take refill in other room Phase3: bomb x2 Phase4: bombarrow x3; or bomb, bombarrow x2
Tompa wrote:
Another thing that I was thinking about... Someone should make a better version of the Screen Skip version of this game. As you can take the sword faster now. That will save some secs:).
Yeah, I also noticed that Tarin can be talked to from farther down the screen... unless I've got an older version of the video.
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