Post by feos

Posted: 5/26/2021 4:33 PM

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

Yes, we need to tell everyone about it, but without stepping on the Freenode's staff toes.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 5/26/2021 4:34 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Nach wrote:

So I don't know what to make of that.

The IRC protocol does not notify you in any way if your message has not been delivered, or has been delivered to only some people in the channel. And yes, that can happen because the protocol has no countermeasures against it; your line will appear in the chat log immediately, but when and whether it will appear to the users in the channel is up to the IRC network, TCP ACKs won't help you there. ICQ had a similar problem, and it pissed people off all the time. That was one of the main reasons people have been more than happy to move to chat applications with guaranteed two-way acknowledgment.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 5/26/2021 4:37 PM

Quote

Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

moozooh wrote:

The IRC protocol does not notify you in any way if your message has not been delivered, or has been delivered to only some people in the channel. And yes, that can happen because the protocol has no countermeasures against it; your line will appear in the chat log immediately, but when and whether it will appear to the users in the channel is up to the IRC network, TCP ACKs won't help you there.

Thanks, good to know! I'm just now wondering if the Freenode staff are actively filtering discussions about moving away from Freenode in some way. We should probably assume networking issues over anything, especially since my connection has been acting up all week, but with what DeHackEd pointed out about Freenode staff going nuts, I'm starting to wonder what else may they be doing?

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 5/26/2021 5:35 PM

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Pokota

He/Him

Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779

And it's behavior/incidents like that that lend credence to the departing staff members' side of the story in the eyes of the layperson.

Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?

Posted: 5/26/2021 8:21 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Nach wrote:

I'm just now wondering if the Freenode staff are actively filtering discussions about moving away from Freenode in some way. We should probably assume networking issues over anything, especially since my connection has been acting up all week, but with what DeHackEd pointed out about Freenode staff going nuts, I'm starting to wonder what else may they be doing?

Realistically, it doesn't help to spend the time wondering why the message didn't come through, especially considering that it's IRC and it never explicitly guarantees that any message does. This time is much better spent repeating, reiterating, and duplicating the message in ways available to us to ensure that it does, in fact, come through to every remaining active #tasvideos user on Freenode. We need to expedite the process because we (you in particular) didn't take a decisive enough course of action when we saw the writing on the wall several days ago. So now we have to do it under the threat of a channel takeover, which is much less convenient but no less urgent. Among the staff, you're the most staunch IRC supporter and the one who de facto took it upon himself to handle the IRC affairs. Do what needs to be done, Nach. Help people migrate ASAP.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 5/26/2021 11:46 PM

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DJ_Incendration

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/1/2016
Posts: 295
Location: Cornelia Castle

It's really a shame IRC was moved... I understand that a policy was updated to have less bans, and hey, less bans... actually a good thing! Nobody would use hate speech in this kind of community, or talk about unlawful activities, so that is a good thing they removed the ban for those things. If they think certain things are cancel culture, fine. They can think that. Mocking and punishing the staff is not fine, though. That's one thing that makes me support the move. However, it's ok if they aren't open to criticism. Sometimes, even I struggle with taking criticism. I've found impersonations before, and I've been ok with them. However, the intent was not good. I just think that with less bans, it could be a better time. I do understand the reasons why the migration is happening, but I just wanted to put my view out here.

DJ Incendration Believe in Michael Girard and every speedrunner and TASer!

Posted: 5/27/2021 12:04 AM

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BrunoVisnadi

Editor, Skilled player (1345)

Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil

DJ Incendration wrote:

policy was updated to have less bans, and hey, less bans... actually a good thing! Nobody would use hate speech in this kind of community, or talk about unlawful activities, so that is a good thing they removed the ban for those things.

If it's true that 'nobody would use hate speech on IRC', you won't get 'less bans' by stopping banning people for hate speech.

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVoUfT49xN9TU-gDMHv57sw Projects: SMW 96 exit. SDW any%, with Amaraticando. SMA2 SMW small only Kaizo Mario World 3

Posted: 5/27/2021 1:07 AM

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DJ_Incendration

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 4/1/2016
Posts: 295
Location: Cornelia Castle

Oh, I didn't realize that...

DJ Incendration Believe in Michael Girard and every speedrunner and TASer!

Posted: 5/27/2021 1:22 AM

Quote

DeHackEd

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player

Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833

In many places hate speech is already illegal. Removing "hate speech" as against the rules when they already list blanket "illegal activities" as against the rules seems reasonable, if a bit strange when reading the diff by itself.

Posted: 5/27/2021 1:26 AM

Quote

Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2240)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California

Regardless of their actual stance, explicitly removing that section carries the implication that they are suddenly allowing it, and not only do I have yet to personally see a statement from Freenode disputing that fact, but I have seen Freenode purists defending the action as if Freenode were in fact allowing those sorts of things. No matter how you slice it, it's a bad look for them, and I'd rather err on the side of "we're taking misinformation seriously" as opposed to "we're treating something serious as misinformation".

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky

warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 5/27/2021 1:29 AM

Quote

EZGames69

He/They

Publisher, Reviewer, Expert player (4464)

Joined: 5/29/2017
Posts: 2762

DJ Incendration wrote:

Nobody would use hate speech in this kind of community

You must have missed this

[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing

Posted: 5/27/2021 9:36 PM

Quote

Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4126)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Samsara wrote:

Regardless of their actual stance, explicitly removing that section carries the implication that they are suddenly allowing it, and not only do I have yet to personally see a statement from Freenode disputing that fact, but I have seen Freenode purists defending the action as if Freenode were in fact allowing those sorts of things. No matter how you slice it, it's a bad look for them, and I'd rather err on the side of "we're taking misinformation seriously" as opposed to "we're treating something serious as misinformation".

On top of the lack of dispute, the direction freenode is steering towards is made especially clear with their choice of operators for their official channels, and their messages posted in their official feedback channel. (Content warning: transphobia, bigotry, slurs, on top of other things). There can hardly be clearer signs that anybody with a shred of common sense should be dissociating and removing themselves from this network as fast as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 5/29/2021 1:47 AM

Quote

Acumenium

He/Him

Banned User

Joined: 6/11/2020
Posts: 73

DJ Incendration wrote:

It's really a shame IRC was moved... I understand that a policy was updated to have less bans, and hey, less bans... actually a good thing! Nobody would use hate speech in this kind of community, or talk about unlawful activities, so that is a good thing they removed the ban for those things. If they think certain things are cancel culture, fine. They can think that. Mocking and punishing the staff is not fine, though. That's one thing that makes me support the move. However, it's ok if they aren't open to criticism. Sometimes, even I struggle with taking criticism. I've found impersonations before, and I've been ok with them. However, the intent was not good. I just think that with less bans, it could be a better time. I do understand the reasons why the migration is happening, but I just wanted to put my view out here.

Cancel culture is a weird way of saying "I don't want to be personally responsible for what I do or what I say". It deflects blame for the actions of one on everyone else.

Posted: 6/3/2021 7:15 AM

Quote

Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4126)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

(mod note - several off-topic posts have been split out)

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 6/9/2021 7:04 PM

Quote

Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4126)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Update: a few days ago, TASVideoAgent (and the Discord relay bot) were ported over to Libera, so now everything is available there. That means the transfer is now complete.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 6/10/2021 10:50 AM

Quote

Memory

She/Her

Site Admin, Skilled player (1557)

Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1766
Location: Dumpster

In security news in regards to freenode: https://twitter.com/dave_universetf/status/1402743978483585026

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 6/10/2021 3:35 PM

Quote

Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4126)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands

Memory wrote:

In security news in regards to freenode: https://twitter.com/dave_universetf/status/1402743978483585026

As always, a healthy reminder not to reuse passwords between different services. All it can take is a single instance where it gets compromised for hell to start. Good thing I already dropped my freenode account weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 6/15/2021 2:44 AM

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DeHackEd

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player

Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833

So this came in about 2.5 hours ago to users on freenode. There's been some serious netsplits without reconnects so you may not have seen it even if you were connected.

-keitwo- [Global Notice 1/3] We are moving past legacy freenode to a new fork. The new freenode is launched. You will slowly be disconnected and when you reconnect, you will be on the new freenode. We patiently await to welcome you in freedom's holdout - the freenode. -keitwo- [Global Notice 2/3] If you're looking to connect now, you can already /server chat.freenode.net 6697 (ssl) or 6667 (plaintext). It's a new genesis for a new era. Thank you for using freenode, and Hello World, from the future. freenode is IRC. freenode is FOSS. freenode is freedom. -keitwo- [Global Notice 3/3] When you connect, register your nickname and your channel and get started. It's a new world. We're so happy to welcome you and the millions of others. We will be posting more information in the coming days on our website and twitter. Otherwise, see you on the other side!

I'm just gonna sit here and laugh.

Posted: 6/15/2021 2:53 AM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Wow, so they deleted all of the "old" nick and channel registrations? With only 2.5 hours of warning?

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 6/15/2021 2:55 AM

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DeHackEd

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player

Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833

I don't know. I assume they're starting over with a blank services database and have essentially built a new IRC network. All the netsplits today are probably servers being disconnected from one network and being joined into a new one, piece by piece. 2.5 hours ago was just when this broadcast message was received as I wasn't paying attention to that IRC window.

Posted: 6/15/2021 3:32 AM

Quote

Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2240)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California

That notice is a goldmine.

We patiently await to welcome you in freedom's holdout - the freenode.

"Freedom!", cried the Freenode, immediately silencing anyone that even remotely disagrees with them.

It's a new genesis for a new era.

Oh sick a new Genesis, finally I can play Comix Zone™.

Thank you for using freenode, and Hello World, from the future.

"Hey Steve..." "Yeah Mark?" "I'm writing the thing. Y'know, the warning thing, the one about, like, how we made a new Freenode and how we're gonna kick everyone and make 'em reconnect." "Why not just go the route we normally do and force people to do what we want without any warning, and ban anyone who says anything other than glowing praise?" "That gets old after the first 60 times! Look, I need something... Catchy. Like, like a good zinger line. Something really evocative of the current time." "And you don't wanna use the new motto?" "No, Steve, we can't use the motto again. These are nerds, they don't know that much about cars and transmissions anyway." "Fine... How about a phrase that originated in the late 60s, when we were kids?" "Are you sure?" "Put 'from the future' after it to make it modern." "STEVE, I COULD KISS YOU RIGHT NOW, BUT I'M NOT A F-" *Mark gets a promotion for his expertly timed usage of a slur*

freenode is IRC.

"Old, outdated, and full of illegal activity."

freenode is FOSS.

"Oh, sorry. FOSSILS. Freenode is FOSSILS. We're old."

freenode is freedom.

"And if you say anything otherwise, we will hunt you down and force you to think the same way we do."

It's a new world. We're so happy to welcome you and the millions of others.

M I L L I O N S

O F O T H E R S

Otherwise, see you on the other side!

*points to an arrow-shaped sign reading "Libera"*

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky

warmCabin wrote: