In double mode，only two players are able to deal with BOSS，do double damage with one knife.
BUG2.
In double mode，the screen Y-axis speed will increase.
BUG3.
Use death to get to your destination faster.
Weakness of double mode
The delay is very serious. When there are many enemies, you need to give up moving acceleration to avoid the generation of lag.
Stage by stage comments
STAGE1
1-1
Solve boss faster with double cooperation.
1—2
There is no optimization on the route. There are too many double lags.
1—3 ,1—4
Without promotion, the original works are already excellent enough.
STAGE2
2-1，2-2
There is no optimization on the route. There are too many double lags.
2—3
2p uses BUG2 to end the battle faster.
STAGE3
3-1
Use double death to get to the destination faster.
Boss war, use BUG2, 2p to end the battle faster.
STAGE4
4-1
There is no optimization on the route. There are too many double lags.
4—2
Use BUG2 and double death alternately to reach the destination faster.
PS：I wasted most of my energy and time here. I repeated the best route I chose many times. Don't tell me that there is a better plan. I don't want to do it again.
4—3
The most gorgeous kill of all time.
STAGE5
5-1
Use BUG2 and double death alternately to reach the destination faster.
5—2
The Final Mission!
Use BUG2,the lift moves very fast!
Other comments
Conclusion
Thanks to Xipo and Klmz, who are the two most contributing players in the game's fastest record.
arkiandruski:Alright, I believe this thread has reached a consensus now. While there are known improvements, there is no evidence that they will save a significant amount of time or be easy to implement, nor has anyone mentioned that they are actively working on or have any desire to make an improvement. Based on that, the movie is acceptable for publication.
While I asked about making a branch in the thread, after looking at the movie I don't think it differentiates itself enough from a single player movie, especially since a big strategy in the run is killing off one character when 2 players aren't needed to avoid lag.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Thank you for the encode, EZGames69!
What a great run. The single-player run is already a lot of fun, but the crazy resource management of this run is even better. I'm also glad that the 3rd boss and the 5-2 autoscroller are so much faster now.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
I have a couple questions I would like to have clarified.
First: What is the reason for the time losses in the early levels? Is there an inherent disadvantage to 2 players that would explain the difference? It seems a bit much to be explained entirely by lag.
Second: If two players have an inherent disadvantage, does this mean it's not a fastest completion? Should I be judging this as a new branch or an obsoletion?
I will be looking into this myself, but I want to hear opinions from other people as well.
I have a couple questions I would like to have clarified.
First: What is the reason for the time losses in the early levels? Is there an inherent disadvantage to 2 players that would explain the difference? It seems a bit much to be explained entirely by lag.
Second: If two players have an inherent disadvantage, does this mean it's not a fastest completion? Should I be judging this as a new branch or an obsoletion?
I will be looking into this myself, but I want to hear opinions from other people as well.
Hi baby. If you have such questions, it means you don't know the game very well.
We all know that jumping attacks can speed up movement. But in places where the number of enemies exceeds 3,the lag comes too much,jumping attack will be slower, so a lot of time has to be lost.Therefore, it is necessary to make up for the disadvantages with the advantages of 2player.
Yes,this run is not gorgeous on the surface.There is no gorgeous POSS -SHOW after killing Boss. But the operation of each frame is valuable and The strategy has been optimized over and over again.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
dragonxyk wrote:
Hi baby.
:DDDDDD
Yes vote!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Quite interessting strategy using the deaths.
submission wrote:
In double mode，only two players are able to deal with BOSS，do double damage with one knife.
Player 1 can double hit enemies in odd RAM addresses, while player 2 can double hit enemies in even RAM addresses, which is all bosses. And you can't hit an enemy with both players at the same time.
I have only skipped over and spotted the author didn't hold odd-rule over level transitions or sometimes comes to a halt after landing without boosting or getting odd rule before boosting. And it seems he didn't optimized the frame-rule either, it's possible to save up to 16f after each boss by optimizing lag throughout the levels before. (create lag frame without sacrificing position, and vice versa).
I haven't looked in detail if the author used other tricks and have no motivation to waste another 2 years on it.
And I don't get why he compares against my run, when xipo and klmz have a faster run.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
dragonxyk wrote:
Hi baby. If you have such questions, it means you don't know the game very well.
Judges are not required to know every game very well. If it was required, we'd never have enough judges on the site. It doesn't mean they are babies though. They have enough competence to learn things whenever that is needed. And to know if it's needed, they ask questions first.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 231
Location: Lonely City
TASeditor wrote:
Quite interessting strategy using the deaths.
submission wrote:
In double mode，only two players are able to deal with BOSS，do double damage with one knife.
Player 1 can double hit enemies in odd RAM addresses, while player 2 can double hit enemies in even RAM addresses, which is all bosses. And you can't hit an enemy with both players at the same time.
I have only skipped over and spotted the author didn't hold odd-rule over level transitions or sometimes comes to a halt after landing without boosting or getting odd rule before boosting. And it seems he didn't optimized the frame-rule either, it's possible to save up to 16f after each boss by optimizing lag throughout the levels before. (create lag frame without sacrificing position, and vice versa).
I haven't looked in detail if the author used other tricks and have no motivation to waste another 2 years on it.
http://cheatpig.github.io/TAS/TASeditor1.png
"two players " here means palyer 2/the second character,it is a clerical error since his poor English.This is not a reason to query the author.Why do you think author hasn't known these ancient rule in 2020?I agree with you:this run can be optimized more,but I even believe that:Easier said than done.Who can guarantee that his works are flawless?Had you optimized this work before submitting it TASeditor's NES Shadow of the Ninja in 09:45.29?Be tolerant to yourself and harsh to others?I don't think there is big problem in the work.It's a nice run,I vote Yes.Now I have a question,as a Editor / Expert player on this site ,TASeditor,since you have said so much,What's your point of view?Vote Yes/no,this work should be published/rejected.I am looking forward to your comments.Please forgive me for being direct,since I am a frank baby.By the way,"baby"is a Neutral Words in our region.You can read it as sir/lady/man/boy/girl.
Edited by feos: unembedded the wide image
Quite interessting strategy using the deaths.
submission wrote:
In double mode，only two players are able to deal with BOSS，do double damage with one knife.
Player 1 can double hit enemies in odd RAM addresses, while player 2 can double hit enemies in even RAM addresses, which is all bosses. And you can't hit an enemy with both players at the same time.
I have only skipped over and spotted the author didn't hold odd-rule over level transitions or sometimes comes to a halt after landing without boosting or getting odd rule before boosting. And it seems he didn't optimized the frame-rule either, it's possible to save up to 16f after each boss by optimizing lag throughout the levels before. (create lag frame without sacrificing position, and vice versa).
I haven't looked in detail if the author used other tricks and have no motivation to waste another 2 years on it.
http://cheatpig.github.io/TAS/TASeditor1.png
"two players " here means palyer 2/the second character,it is a clerical error since his poor English.This is not a reason to query the author.Why do you think author hasn't known these ancient rule in 2020?I agree with you:this run can be optimized more,but I even believe that:Easier said than done.Who can guarantee that his works are flawless?Had you optimized this work before submitting it TASeditor's NES Shadow of the Ninja in 09:45.29?Be tolerant to yourself and harsh to others?I don't think there is big problem in the work.It's a nice run,I vote Yes.Now I have a question,as a Editor / Expert player on this site ,TASeditor,since you have said so much,What's your point of view?Vote Yes/no,this work should be published/rejected.I am looking forward to your comments.Please forgive me for being direct,since I am a frank baby.By the way,"baby"is a Neutral Words in our region.You can read it as sir/lady/man/boy/girl.
Edited by feos: unembedded the wide image
Bruh.
I know he has poor Enslish, that's why I clarified it in my own wording, since I know about the difference between Player 1 and Player 2. I didn't intent to make him look stupid, but you pull it again. The author has known about the differences between Player 1 and Player 2, but hasn't shown to know about other tricks of the game (frame-rule, odd-rule holding; you can see here: #5130: TASeditor's NES Shadow of the Ninja (Japan) in 09:30.41).
No one can guarantee a TAS is perfectly optimal, but it should be at a certain standard. I don't think this is the case here, since he missed out on tricks that were publicy written in the submission text for the current fastest 1 player TAS. Had I optimized #4521: TASeditor's NES Shadow of the Ninja (Japan) in 09:45.29? It was faster than the previous submission and utilized all tricks from the previous submission, but I failed to look at other websites than tasvideos for a TAS of this game. There was a faster run elsewhere so I decided to cancel my run and make a new one. Was #5130: TASeditor's NES Shadow of the Ninja (Japan) in 09:30.41 faster than the fastest run on the internet and did it utilize all tricks known? I would say yes.
Do you know how harsh I'm to myself when it comes to optimization? Probably yes. You know that I didn't give up on doing one stage over and over again to tick over the frame-rule or remove some lag frames. Question: Did you supervise his TAS? If so, how doesn't it utilized the tricks from the 1 player run, "you made"? And another note, the author hasn't made a submission since 12 years, so he might not be up to date with todays standards, I don't think he used TAS Editor or lua scripting. He needs to get to todays standards before he is able to make a good TAS. While it's true that there isn't a big problem with his run, there still are small things that need to be worked on, I think it might be possible to save a second or two, if he tries.
Now what did I vote for this run. Should this run be published? But this isn't the question the poll is asking, it asks if I find this run entertaining. It also doesn't ask if it is well optimized. It's up to the judge or the author what happens with this run.
Ok now, did I find this movie entertaining: I haven't found much joy watching TASes recently, so I simply stopped watching them. I didn't properly watch this run either, so I simply didn't vote on it.
And too scared to provide context with your image?
the author hasn't made a submission since 12 years, so he might not be up to date with todays standards, I don't think he used TAS Editor or lua scripting. He needs to get to todays standards before he is able to make a good TAS. While it's true that there isn't a big problem with his run, there still are small things that need to be worked on, I think it might be possible to save a second or two, if he tries.
You have great insight.Exactly,But it's not accurate enough.I haven't made a submission only since 2019 years.
My last submission is "Chip and Dele 2-2 players"in 2019 before this run.If you open this FM2 with TAS Editor, you can see that I really used the TAS Editor.
As a matter of fact，I made this run twice.What's the time it takes to complete the first time is 8：35. Yes，you are right .No one can guarantee a TAS is perfectly optimal.So, I TASed it again.Did a lot of detail optimizationand ，and there's 10 seconds faster tan the first time.
I've used all the techniques presented in 1-player runs.It's just that my English is too poor to express it in my submission.
I agree that it can be possible to save a second or two if we just optimize the details.But if we want to improve the run again, we need not only details, but also more optimized tactics and bugs , right?
I did a small test because I wanted to see if the game was hex friendly at all. I delayed the last hit on the first boss enough to lose a frame rule, then pushed the rest of the input forward to match the lost time. The resulting run managed to get all the way through the second stage and most of the way through the third before desyncing, so saving those frame rules might be a viable quick fix. TASeditor: do you remember any of the specific places where it can be done from the watching you did?
Barring that, while it would be nice to have those techniques implemented in the run, I'm not sure that the possible time save that would come from them is enough to justify outright rejection.
Doing stuff with the frame-rule aren't quick to fix, and 2 players make a difference in lag too. But it should save some time. I would reject only based on that, maybe he didn't understood what my submission meant.
Other small improvements are: Holding R during level transistion to keep 25 speed and delaying release of R at frame 13416 to not come to a stop for a frame.
Level by level encode between this and 1 player run could reveal some of the time lost in earlier stages.
I did a small test because I wanted to see if the game was hex friendly at all. I delayed the last hit on the first boss enough to lose a frame rule, then pushed the rest of the input forward to match the lost time. The resulting run managed to get all the way through the second stage and most of the way through the third before desyncing, so saving those frame rules might be a viable quick fix. TASeditor: do you remember any of the specific places where it can be done from the watching you did?
Barring that, while it would be nice to have those techniques implemented in the run, I'm not sure that the possible time save that would come from them is enough to justify outright rejection.
I really appreciate that you did a test for this purpose, and I believe that you can change a lot of your previous opinions after you did this test.
But some one exaggerate some trivial things. I don't know if he is deliberately avoiding some things.
Anyway, I believe that you'll have your own judgment.
I'm not trying to exaggerate little things, my point is these things should have been implemented when you stated you used all tricks from 1 player run. And these things could have been avoided by an experienced player. I mean not loosing a frame from stopping, etc. But it's still important to focus on the little things.
And in the end improving these things might not even matter, unless the frame-rule is also improved.
And the frame-rule is a thing on its own. It's not just a case of being faster. It would be much effort to redo the run. I'd say it's something for someone to improve in the future, but I'm no judge.
2-players run is just the beginning.There will certainly be many improvements in the future.This is certainly not the fastest run.
Maybe my understanding is wrong.
There are unique bugs in 2-players mode.
1:Yes and only 2p can do double damage to BOSS.
2:Velocity acceleration in longitudinal coordinates.
3:Use Left-Right glitch to skip auto moving horizontal screen(1-1BOSS,2-1snake,3-1BOSS,5-2elevator)
That's the meaning in 2-player run.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
TASeditor wrote:
And in the end improving these things might not even matter, unless the frame-rule is also improved.
And the frame-rule is a thing on its own. It's not just a case of being faster. It would be much effort to redo the run. I'd say it's something for someone to improve in the future, but I'm no judge.
This all sounds like the entire run will have to be redone to even know if the improvements you mentioned will help.
TASeditor wrote:
Doing stuff with the frame-rule aren't quick to fix, and 2 players make a difference in lag too. But it should save some time. I would reject only based on that, maybe he didn't understood what my submission meant.
What if they don't save time in the end? Unreject? That's not how the site works. If the potential improvement is hard to implement and it doesn't certainly save significant amount of time, it's left for the future, as you said too.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
