Talk with input files.

"...research existing runs to avoid rather obvious mistakes..." isn't that an input file already?? i was actually refering to my submission file with this.

Meaning "upload a userfile demonstrating what you're talking about." Words mislead, actions don't, and you yourself were impressed by optimizations made in the demo movie that sound like they would benefit the submitted run.

i was actually refering to my submission file with this. in a way i always feel insulted whenever someone posts a "new" file that even includes mistakes that i tried to avoid in my run and i even tried to explain some of them in my maxed out videos description and my subtitles... so don't tell me i play the big mystery card here, i basically showed most of my knowledge already, but im also glad if someone wants to hear more. and to name some examples, this is what bugs me the most and it's not even a TAS related fact, only basic game knowledge that could easily be obtained just by casually playing the game, it's no secret at all, which makes it even more outrageous for me:

You're right that people should learn from what you submit so future work can benefit from improvements you make. Although you need to describe what those improvements are.

the very first candle of the game has to be destroyed! because this candle triggers another additional candle to spawn in the next screen, the second last that contains a 1UP. and while it technically doesn't matter too much to leave the first candle (it's even better because of less lag caused by the whip action), if you leave it you will have to deal with additional lag from the the other candle that you purposedly spawn. and the 1UP candle that spawns isn't just a similar case than the one at the start, because the location is right next to a rope that you will have to climb up. and since climbing is super slow you will spend a lot of time on that screen before you can get out of sight from the candle, which in return means it does NOT save time to leave this candle there while you climb the rope. so by leaving the first candle alone and seemingly saving the action of whipping it, only causes you to be forced to still use a whip move on the second candle, so even if both actions were equally time consuming (which they aren't, since the location favours the first candle over the 1UP candle), you would still have half of a screen movement more lag before you can even reach the 1UP candle to destroy it... so no matter what, spawning that candle only costs time in my eyes. unless someone can proof me wrong with a detailed explanation that convinces me that i missed something... the same problem goes for level 3 and level 4 as well. (at least level 2 was somewhat fixed in the last video here). in level 3 you have to destroy the 3rd candle of the level to not spawn the first one in the horizontal scrolling section with a crystal ball in it (which i explicitly explained in my video, so idk why people point at me from all sides, but whatever...). and in level 4 im not super duper sure if it could somehow be worth to ignore it, but i think unspawning any object sounds like a good idea... at the start of level 4 you have to destroy the last candle of the low ground section where the knights are, that candle contains a heart and if you leave it, it spawns the second candle in the next screen which contains a blinking heart. (but guess what, i explained that candle spawn too in my video...)

This is terrific info! Thank you for sharing it! This kind of thing typically goes into submission notes so people know how you improved a run and can learn from it. The only thing I got out of this run's submission notes is that you made decent use of a pause glitch.

why is every time such a drama here, i just wanted to enrich your lifes with my work, but instead i kinda feel like i did something wrong when i made my run :(

You did nothing wrong by making your run. I for one appreciate it.

sorry if i did, my only intention was to push the game further than ever before...

The more you elaborate on important things you did is helpful so we can learn from it. Generally people aren't going to know about it otherwise. Unless you tell them to notice something, they probably won't.

Now, on the actual movie. On the surface, this wouldn't be a very entertaining movie - a lot of the enemies are missing, and Simon or Christopher or Juste or whoever doesn't move very fast. But taking this movie at face value misses a very important point - the enemies are missing because of liberal use of Pause Delay, taking a notoriously difficult game and trivializing it in a new and interesting way. Since I more or less know what's happening and why, I'm willing to vote Yes. Mazzin: As Nach mentioned, the submission notes are... not especially descriptive. Aside from Pause Delay, do you have a breakdown of how this differs from previous submissions for the GB version?

Ive followed instructions (stage4) and the candle is still there, it makes no difference. (except I lost frames...) The corridor in question has almost no lag past the first ennemy, btw. (I think its 30'ish lag) The only lag present is from the monsters trying to spawn (theres still the logic running in ram) The whole idea that a candle content is lagging the game is just wrong, im not gonna bother to explain in details how ive figured this (HINT RAM WATCH, only when you destroy a candle the game will draw its content...), you can always proove me wrong, in that case, you will also have to proove how its saving any frames (ie show 2 different movie that does showoff the frames saved) Other than that, this is just a sterile talk. (I fail to understand what im suppose to change beyond those 3 candles, and how much im suppose to save overall, I know ive got limited knowledge on the game so if someone else could figure something im suppose to do, plz feel free to call me an idiot) This is also a good reason to have ghost script, and to do the grey tas too, so that there is nothing left to debate or guess. (this is outside considerations for publishing/acceptation/rejection) Edit: on the discord it was mentioned that the trick could be considered as a different category, because it remove all monsters, and pause so often (annoying kinda), I dont believe the game is worth 2 category, but should that happen, the old published run would not fullfill either criteria (it does pause few times...) and I would have to basicly redo a movie where you dont pause at all, thats fine for me as long it is clearly stated in the rejection message here (im not doing a 3rd movie if its uterly pointless, 2 is enough), im begging our overlords for a definitive decision on this matter. Im not even asking about grey vs color version, because this is something that was asked, voted, rejected (!) and published already, so Im assuming/hoping it will stick. We now know that the game has the "double speed" flag set in the code, so it is very obvious the reason the game lag less than grey is this. (thx whoever found that, sry ive forgot your name) There is a jap cart of konami collection (older release date than EU), but in there its not a gameboy color (so it doesnt have the double speed flag) but instead its a super gameboy (so its no longer grey but red... with a border belmont art... its not awesome tho), so theres no point to use that I think (and hope). Edit2: For the record ive voted meh, in a couple of minute while using ram watch ive managed to shave 70 frames from his first room, while I admire the work to figure without ram watch how to remove that many monsters, this is sub optimal at best, later on its about 600 frames saved in stage3 begin.

THANK YOU!!! finally we are somewhat on the same page @aruk! but i think you misunderstood what i said here:

Ive followed instructions (stage4) and the candle is still there, it makes no difference. (except I lost frames...)

as i mentioned, im not entirely sure if that specific case is worth the tradeoff but that the candle spawns is a fact! it's impossible that it didn't work for you without hacking^^ in level 4 you have to destroy the last candle of the line of candles that starts at at the beginning of the level. or in other words, it's the last candle before the boomerang guy. and to verify that you got the right one, i also mentioned the content of that candle which in this case is a heart. and while we're at it:

The whole idea that a candle content is lagging the game is just wrong, im not gonna bother to explain in details how ive figured this

first of all, i wonder why i always have to proove stuff to everyone in form of a file or video, but you are just allowed to claim stuff like that without evidence? i just find that unfair and it makes me feel like my words hold less value than that of other people here... (but whatever, this is not what i was going to get into for now.) back to what you said. i have no file or anything prepared to proove it, but i kinda wanna appeal to everyones rational thought process here. (in addition, ONLY seeing something doesn't necessarily mean you understand it, so i think those calls for proof often sound more like a cheap excuse to ignore an extra step of thinking to me, but im drifting away again.) ok, so lets say the content of a candle would not affect the game at all as you claim. (which is not true, if you believe me or not. because it even matters how fast you grab an item that falls out of a candle in the GB version). this would still not change anything i said because i only really talked about the candles themselves and how they cause lag. and if we only look at an isolated case of only those 2 candles that depend on each other to trigger the spawn, we can just elaborate what in theorie would be less laggy, so hear me out: think of 2 empty rooms with nothing in it. now think of how christopher walks straight through both rooms with no interaction. this will cause a certain amount of lag or emulated frames overall, so just think of this time as a constant measurement. ok now we let christopher walk through both rooms with only jumping once and whipping in the air. this will obviously take more time than just walking. ok so far so obvious. but now we have christopher walk and whip through a room with a candle in it. what will happen? obviously the candle would just add a bit more time to what was previously just an empty room and we did the same actions. easy right? and now we finally come to the actual scenario, we do not whip the candle and walk through the room. will that be faster than whipping it? we don't know yet. so we now only have to compare the amount of time the candle itself costs and what the jump and whip action costs. and if we would know those times, we could already tell what's faster... right? but even without a prooving file, we can still come very close to a likely answer. (and that is what i kinda miss in this whole submission debate thing here, i feel like nobody is used to thinking anymore...) you can even figure that comparison out by that simulation. the first case would be to walk 1/4 of the 2 rooms (the first half of room 1), then whip the candle and walk 3/4 of the whole way (the second half of room 1 and all of room 2) with no interactions. in the second case we would just walk straight through room 1 without jumping and whipping, so the candle will be there for not only half of the time it takes to walk through a room but it will stay for the whole room. but not only that, because we now have not whipped the candle in room 1, we now also have to walk through room 2 with a candle in it. so if we put it all together we have 4/4 of candle lag throughout both rooms in this case but instead we save the jump/whip lag. and now we have both cases and can put them side by side: 1/4 of candle lag + whip action lag. vs 4/4 of candle lag but without whip lag. (we could even cut off the first 1/4 of the walking, since it is the same for both cases, but whatever.) and now tell me, who in this forum thinks that 1 single whip action produces more lag than the combined candle lag for the screen time of 1.5 entire rooms? i for myself, do not believe in this! of course i could still be wrong, but when you played the GB version you will develop a sense of scale for the different lag cases and i even tried to come up with a rule of thumb in the subtitles of my video, where i said that you could roughly say that 2 candles are the maximum of what you can leave on screen when there is no interruption of walking through the room, meaning a flat ground without steps and no ropes or other stuff that makes you spend more time than just walking. oh wait!! if your rule even says that 2 candles is ok, what were you even talking above then?? you still don't use your brains right? ok, let me explain this too... -_- imagine 2 candles above each other in a room. to walk in and out of sight you need 1 full room/screen of movement. but if you have the candles alined horizontally and you only see 1 first and then the next comes into sight after a while, that is more than 1 room/screen of movement but in exchange you will only have a smaller time where both candles are on screen at the same time, so the start and end of that scene only shows 1 candle on both sides. so it is even less laggy than the case with 2 candles on the same vertical position. (sadly i have no comparison for those cases but i assume the longer the screen time takes the worse, meaning the 2 candles in same spot case might be faster than 2 candles in line) so what am i saying? my "rule" says that 2 candles in a line, which i consider the worse case, is not worth destroying any of the candles, but the catch is that the screen time on that case is only slightly more than 1 room/screen that christopher has to walk. so the worst of cases here would be basically what our level 4 secret candle spawn is. a room where you walk by a candle and right when you lose sight of it, the next candle comes into the screen and the same time has to be spend twice until both are gone. and that case is more of an extreme one in my rule of thumb idea, so it kinda doesn't really cover that. and obviously it is not a real rule at all, i just thought that would be somewhat helpful to keep in mind for a very rough estimation of the gameplay choices. there could easily be a case where this doesn't fit, but it also often cannot even be applied because of the circumstances and obstacles on your way, so take this all with a big grain of salt ok, i never meant to claim this to be true or so, it's just like a tool to help watching the gameplay basically. damn, this text is huge... fuck. im sorry guys. well, there is one more thing i wanted to adress: i tried to do that trick in level 3 with the floor and ceiling and i actually got it to work. and the same applies for the knights in level 4, it seems i was just too dumb to pull it off when i made my run. but i also didn't have a RAM watch to help me... im kind ashamed that i didn't manage to find/pull off those parts and seeing them work now makes my run feel very unoptimized in that regard. so i wouldn't mind if you reject my submission since it now actually is not optimal at all in some places. (here is a good example where video proof works, because it is rather obvious that a major exploit saves a shitload of time, but small actions that only save a few frames here and there aren't really obvious, so i don't think that is worth the struggle of making a file or video for them. just my opinion) ok, sorry again for the big text, but i will end this post now before i can sell it as a book... i can help you with some theory stuff if anyone has questions, but i can only tell you what i know and not provide stupid file comparisons and such... in the end the hardcore RAM details and everything have to be tested by whoever wants to publish the next run, i already wasted about 500h on this game, so i think i deserve some rest, thanks for your understanding. (i hope i didn't start a war here by accident now)

first of all, i wonder why i always have to proove stuff to everyone in form of a file or video, but you are just allowed to claim stuff like that without evidence? i just find that unfair and it makes me feel like my words hold less value than that of other people here... (but whatever, this is not what i was going to get into for now.)

Ideally, every claim should be backed by a video and/or an input file. They hold a lot more value than words do. In this case, I'm still way more inclined to believe arukAdo due to his familiarity with TASing the game, and the fact that he's working off of the GBC version (which I would consider the preferred version, personally). It's entirely possible that your candle thing only applies to the greyscale GB version.

back to what you said. i have no file or anything prepared to proove it, but i kinda wanna appeal to everyones rational thought process here. (in addition, ONLY seeing something doesn't necessarily mean you understand it, so i think those calls for proof often sound more like a cheap excuse to ignore an extra step of thinking to me, but im drifting away again.)

A call for proof is... a call for proof. This isn't CVAvideos. We're not all experts in this game, and the technical explanation of whether or not a candle spawns isn't going to persuade us nearly as much as the actual visible gameplay that should accompany that explanation.

oh wait!! if your rule even says that 2 candles is ok, what were you even talking above then?? you still don't use your brains right? ok, let me explain this too... -_-

If you don't want to stir up drama, stop insulting other users like this.

imagine 2 candles above each other in a room.

Instructions unclear, imagining 4 balls at the edge of a cliff.

to walk in and out of sight you need 1 full room/screen of movement. but if you have the candles alined horizontally and you only see 1 first and then the next comes into sight after a while, that is more than 1 room/screen of movement but in exchange you will only have a smaller time where both candles are on screen at the same time, so the start and end of that scene only shows 1 candle on both sides. so it is even less laggy than the case with 2 candles on the same vertical position. (sadly i have no comparison for those cases but i assume the longer the screen time takes the worse, meaning the 2 candles in same spot case might be faster than 2 candles in line) so what am i saying?

"Time works the same way"?

well, there is one more thing i wanted to adress: i tried to do that trick in level 3 with the floor and ceiling and i actually got it to work. and the same applies for the knights in level 4, it seems i was just too dumb to pull it off when i made my run. but i also didn't have a RAM watch to help me... im kind ashamed that i didn't manage to find/pull off those parts and seeing them work now makes my run feel very unoptimized in that regard.

I think this is why you're being scrutinized more than arukAdo here: He doesn't really need to prove anything, his test run (and I do stress test run here) was based off of RAM watch and prior knowledge of the game, whereas all you've really done is overexplained a single technique and casually insulted his knowledge of the game, while also admitting you weren't using all the tools you had at your disposal. That's kind of the thing with TASing: I've said before that all you need to make a great TAS is patience and Google, but the Google part of that is actually really extensive. For example: If you don't know how to RAM search, Google it. More specifically, look up how to use something like Cheat Engine, as it's literally the exact same process but there's bound to be a lot more documentation on it. You're always going to get better results through watching the values than you're going to get through just watching the screen.

so i wouldn't mind if you reject my submission since it now actually is not optimal at all in some places. (here is a good example where video proof works, because it is rather obvious that a major exploit saves a shitload of time, but small actions that only save a few frames here and there aren't really obvious, so i don't think that is worth the struggle of making a file or video for them. just my opinion)

Minor known improvements wouldn't normally get a run rejected unless they should have been implemented in the first place (i.e, they were known ahead of time, in the published run or a faster offsite run). You can always cancel the run yourself if you feel that it isn't optimal enough, especially if you're not going to work on a new one.

btw i don't wanna hurt your feelings again, but i have to get this off my chest: you seriously lack game knowledge! i can easily tell from looking at the gameplay.

As arukAdo mentioned, it was a "test run", meaning that the purpose was just demonstrating a specific better strategy, and not attempting to make a new improved submssion.

why is every time such a drama here, i just wanted to enrich your lifes with my work, but instead i kinda feel like i did something wrong when i made my run :(

I think you're the only one that sees it that way. Don't worry, no one is blaming you for making this submission. This is a genuine attempt and as a judge I appreciate it. We all make mistakes, and no one is expecting you to submit a perfect TAS, even though we all work with that intention. Also, even if a submission ends up rejected, it can still be useful for the site for many reasons, so in many cases it's still appreciated. Our judging system benefits a lot from setting precedents, as these help future judgements and brings new situations to discuss and to figure out. It gives the chance to improve our knowledge and the ability to solve problems. For example, as I wrote in my previous post, I think it's interesting how a more laggy version, while being unavoidably slower, ends up de facto introducing more optimization challenge. I'd like the idea of putting in discussion the definition of how a game version should be chosen.

i appologise if i accidentally insulted anyone or whatever, i just feel disrespected if my improvements get ignored on purpose even when i showed and even explained how they could be achieved...

All right, it's nice to see that the misunderstanding was cleared. But next time, try to avoid assuming bad intentions from other people, and always ask for making sure. By the way, sorry for the late reply, I've been much busy lately... I don't want this post to bring back the discussion, I just wanted to share my viewpoint... Let's move on. Edit: oh, there is another thing that I forgot to say. I also got many rejections myself, but I'm proud of them because they helped the site in a way or another. You can see the list in my personal page: Wiki: ThunderAxe31

ok fuck this... this is the exact same story from last time all over again. what the fuck do you guys even want??? i just don't get it! if you say my run here is not good enough because it could be better, then why on earth is the currently latest published run even accepted in the first place, when it's far worse than my run now while the person who made it had even more knowledge and tools than i used?? this makes no fucking sense to me, im sorry. there will never be a perfect run so what is even the deal? im not satisfied with my own run anymore since i know i screwed up in a few places, so im ok if my submission is being talked down, it's only fair since i didn't try hard enough i guess. but if another movie gets accepted in the future and i can find even a single frame in it that is less optimal than my current run, i can never take this whole site seriously anymore... i only made this run because of the same reason im whining here about other bs: i care for improvement and not for who the fuck made what, that is not how i grew to TASing, im used to everyone supporting each other and improving together. i did even credit arukAdo in my video description because he was the one who found it in the first place. i only wanted to make something more optimal than his latest run (which i did). so if he or anyone else will make an improvement over my improvement, that is completely fine for me, i even encourage everyone to try that. but when out of selfishness the next creator just does his own thing and basically invents the same stuff again instead of using my work as a basis to build upon, that is where i start to get angry. because what is the point of wasting time and progress only to avoid cooperation... it's like a lose lose on both ends. i already had a better run than aruk, even before this stuff here, but it never was about being better for me, only about pushing the game. and then i saw his pause trick in his run and that led me to improve further with his knowledge as a basis. and now that i showed what i did with it, he seems to push it even further by cleaning up my oversights with it. but that's rather easy as he stated himself, because the trick isn't as hard when you have the right tools and knowledge of it. i just hope it also works with the more difficult improvements as well, that involve more intensive planning and thinking. that is everything that scares me. because seeing how he recieved my stuff so far, it doesn't seem as he is acknowledging much of my effort and instead tries to "proof" that he can do everything on his own... (which would be fine if he wouldn't show those mistakes to me everywhere) so all i want is to save him time by providing what i already found out so he doesn't have to find it again! to me TASing is a team sport, so i don't really get why it always sounds like i have to "proof" that i belong to the team... why would you even mistrust anyone that works for the same goal as you?? why would i talk shit to you? what is the point? how would i benefit from that? how would the goal benefit from that?? this is basically my whole confusion here. screw my submission, i don't care, im more about the moral thing of the whole subject. (btw sorry for the slight outrage)

Relax man. If you have a decent submission that cannot be fixed without a lot of work then it will probably be accepted. Freaking out, acting like a jerk, or over reacting will only make you look bad. Just answer the questions.

Relax man. If you have a decent submission that cannot be fixed without a lot of work then it will probably be accepted. Freaking out, acting like a jerk, or over reacting will only make you look bad. Just answer the questions.

thanks. i will try to calm down.

Ok so to make sure about whats happening there. Ive redid stage4 room1 of your movie. By proper use of the pause trick and avoiding candles, ive saved 110 frames in that room. (here) I then tryed to figure whats going on with that unholy candle. This is the result ive got So you might be right, there might be something about that candle, the time saved is as you can see, very minimal, its within 15-20 frames range. For further reference, it costed 4 frames to hit the candle in the first room. Its not like ive not warmed you on discord about everything you are complaining right now, I did multiple times. If I was using hacks, it would be inside the movies too.

As arukAdo mentioned, it was a "test run", meaning that the purpose was just demonstrating a specific better strategy, and not attempting to make a new improved submssion.

Well unfortunatly it is my intention now, provided that he will not run the gbc version, and im not sure if hes whilling to fix the thousand(s?) of frames remaining to be saved in the grey run. The only reason ive submited nothing is because I wanted to investigate things, you can also see now how controversial it would have been, without verifying that the color version doesnt have this candle nonsence for exemple, but im sure we are not yet at the end of the tunnel. MOD EDIT: fixed and resized image link! <3 samsara

I just want to give some words of advice here. TASVideos has always been about working together through research, testing, and other contributions. It’s essentially a collaborative effort from many people. People here are genuinely trying to help out in making the best possible TASes for the site, and that goes for this movie as well. You dont have to do everything on your own, in fact it’s much harder to do all that research by yourself. That’s why places like forums exist, so everyone can discuss movie making. If we can get along, and try to avoid insults and feeling offended that someone made a faster movie, then everyone can be happy. You can always share your progress with movie making in the appropriate game threads, and people may offer advice over what can be done better. The name calling does nothing but upset both parties, and shouldn’t be welcomed here.

do i understand the comparison picture correctly that the one without the candle is further into the screen than the other? if so, then that is a tremendous timesave since you even have half of a screen to pass when the candle is in the center like the picture shows. but i somehow feel like im missing something, because why is the pic without candle further when you spent 4 more frames on the other candle as you said...? it's either very unintuitive, like many things in this game, or i don't understand the comparison correctly. tell me which is the case here? thanks. btw i will try to make a list of things i think can be improved, but it would be halpful for me to have any video or so that i can refer to. otherwise i would have to explain the exact locations and all that stuff too when i have no reference... so anyone tell me what source i can refer to. (oh and it won't be that quickly though, i am pretty busy this week especially today and tomorrow, so i will only be able to start making the list on friday at best. just saying.)

Hi Mazzin, If it's hard for you to explain something with a video, you don't always have to use a video. You can take screenshots of a place in the game, and draw on it with paintbrush (MS Paint), indicating certain things and describing improvements.

A new test strategy for stage1 This is possible by not using pause to remove monsters, instead im simply moving backward for 1 frame at the right moment. Note that hitting candles with this method is slower, regardless how you try to manage the lag, you also cannot do it while jumping (in case its not obvious already) http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/65368766340652844 Link to video This still need more working, but the first room alone is 82 frames faster. If taking damage happen to be viable, then probly should not upgrade the whip at all and maybe save a few more frames in first room, and use directly the eyeball in second room. Its gonna take some iterations to verify if its gonna really work or not, and before reaching the boss its hard to predict, but otherwise I think nearly a second and a half in first room is the best I can figure for now. Not using pause will also save much time trough the run. Havent tested on color yet but excepting it to work the same (or better).

A new test strategy for stage1

ok, you won! i take back what i said, you actually outsmarted me with this discovery... if this works the way i think it does then you just hit me in my blind spot, making me look like a dumbfuck after all my "use your brain"-talk, because i litterally had all the clues in my hand but didn't put them together... (provided it does work as i think!). could you explain how it works please, because i wanna make sure that im dumb. ps: should i refer to my own video to make my improvements list? because im not going to screenshot every single screen in the game, that's even longer than just watching a full video... the thing is, my video is clearly outdated now and im not sure how helpful it is if i basically explain improvements that aren't even shown in the video that i refer to... so again, what video should i refer to when i make a full game improvement list?

You can have a look at my latest stage1, I dont believe im gonna revisit it soon (but feel free to try to improve it), at least for the grey im please with this version and will keep going like this, while still using the sub as base of research of course. It is about 2 seconds faster than the sub. Link to video http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/65389261794911803 this input file use bizhawk 2.4.2, gambatte with gbc syncs, theres an inherent 13 frames slower at loading due to emulation diff. Few things: -theres no frames rules in the game after all, any improvement is an improvement, but instead theres lag rules, that mean lag comes in a sequence, that is altered by pressing inputs, stuff drawn ect... like we already know, but whats also important is pressing pause does alter the sequence a lot, and that can increase the lag by itself, it was clever to hit candles because this does effectivly mitigate the lag, with this method without pause, you stop the scrolling so automaticly you are slower, if you try to hit the candle, you will slow down even more, yet in the end, it is faster than pausing, provided that you dont hit candles. (even if it makes no sence, thats whats happening here) -a lower lag count doesnt always beat a frame count -theres nothing that carry over screens, but the lag sequence from the previous room can make the loading faster in the next one, it is trivial to test with ropes, for exemple just jumping a frame too late can lead to a faster loading of next room. -the invulnerability make you move faster, supposly because the sprite is half the time not drawn on screen, this is the only item that make it worth to hit a candle, if theres more on the way in other stage its probly best to remind me, it took me many tries to figure what candle was worth it, actually none does, except that one (and ive tested litterally every of them before this one) -rooms with no scrolling arent affected, a few monsters spawn must be removed with pause, like in room2 or last scroller before boss, they cannot be manipulated with just the scrolling.

ok, you won! i take back what i said, you actually outsmarted me with this discovery... if this works the way i think it does then you just hit me in my blind spot, making me look like a dumbfuck after all my "use your brain"-talk, because i litterally had all the clues in my hand but didn't put them together... (provided it does work as i think!).

Please, don't feel discouraged. Even if aruKado is working alone, it still doesn't make it a competition. Everyone has different strong points and weak points, and everyone learns from the discoveries of other TASers.

could you explain how it works please, because i wanna make sure that im dumb.

I agree that it should be explained. If needed, I can also help with debugging.

because im not going to screenshot every single screen in the game, that's even longer than just watching a full video...

There is no need to use screenshots, you can use just timestamps or frame numbers.

ok guys, i used the latest video from aruk here as a reference and made a list of what i see there. (no proof as always but feel free to call me a lier if i got something wrong). no mark before a text means this is very likely true and will save time! * means a smaller improvement of very few frames but they add up throughout the run. ? means it is more on the theory side and could be ignored if nobody wants to try it. () are basically just comments, no real suggestions in that sense. so this is what i got for level 1. here are the video timestamps: 0:14 - *grab items asap 0:22 - *same but more significant 0:35 - definitely destroy this candle, because rope climb on same screen 0:40 - poorly executed rope jump through screen transition, avoid climbing frames at all cost! 0:41 - ? since you jump already and the landing floor provides a lagless fall, why not whip this candle? 0:43 - another rope dependend candle, begone! 0:47 - *good stuff on the eyeball cycle but it looks like you didn't completely max out this jump attack here, you wanna both jump and later here 0:52 - *in a way it's a tradeoff but it looks worth: just delay the whip a few frames to also get the candle (you increase the enemy lag by that amount of frames but this lag combines with the candle lag so it's less of a problem than it would be seperately and you easily get those frames back from the candle later, remember there are 2 steps in your screen) 0:56 - dropping down platforms is often faster when you jump down instread of just walking (maybe this little height here is too low but it's always worth a try at least) 0:56 - ? and while you jump already, it's also worth to consider whipping that candle here for free... 1:00 - ? another inevitable jump and 2 candles align before your eyes, at least think about it, buy 1 get 1 free... 1:05 - ? im not too sure how your new walking trick works but this part here looks a little wacky to me, might be possible to jump before the needed frame to get more horizontal momentum on the peak to need less frames of pausing 1:13 - (just a correction on the reasoning here: whipping this candle is good because it is a rope dependent one and NOT for the reason you did it! im pretty sure the invincibility cross doesn't make you lag less, if anything then it might even increase processing power for the blinking) 1:20 - in theory this room should be identical to the one before but i know that the eyeball cycle is very though here. anyway, here is another rope dependent candle plus the location is very convenient for lag reduction. (on a side note, you don't have to worry about the jump lag here, because you can just chain 2 jumps after another and it is likely to avoid the inbetween landing lag) 1:32 - this time i even have proof in form of my submission file but i think i didn't even do it optimally. you should understand it by now, this candle is rope dependent and the longer the rope the more impact it does to your lag. (oh and in case you somehow didn't figure this out yet: the fireball of the whip is obviously an obcest too, so hit the candle with the first frame of your fireball with an attack at ~10 frames after a jump! NEVER let the fireball show up if you can avoid it!) 1:43 - on a long fall like this it is definitely worth to jump down instead of walking, regardless of langing lag! and here is another 2 for 1 case so just make sure it is not worth to attack those two candles here, it's a free whiplash... 1:48 - ? (there are numerous candle tuples like this throughout the entire run and for those im actually not sure if they are worth to use an extra jump for that you could avoid, it probably depends on the distance the fireball has to travel, but i can imagine it COULD be worth. but i wouldn't make anyone test this, because how hard and tedious it is, so im fine if we ignore those cases.) 2:06 - *i could be wrong but this is how i feel about those falling platforms: i believe that walking on them while they fall down is less optimal because the platforms lag a lot and moving in lag is always slow obviously. but instead of walking i would suggest to first, jump on them asap to make them fall down asap and second, plan it ahead so that you only do chain jumps on all of them where you only touch them for 1 frame to make them fall and you keep all your momentum without landing lag until the last chain jump ends. that way you can cross them faster than when you always get new landing lag on every jump and have to deal with additional processing when the positions of the objects update with a dependency. (very confusing, sorry. basically just do jump chains over falling platforms!) 2:14 - here is another drop off with a good height, so it is likely that a jump down will end up saving some frames because you gain downward momentum from jumps but not from walk offs. 2:31 - falling platforms again, try to plan ahead and do chain jumps so that the last one lands on the last platform asap to make it fall quickly. 2:35 - another drop off, here you wanna chain the jump down with the jump on the next platform so plan ahead where to jump off from above and also chain that second jump into a third to fall down the platform later and do the fireball shot on the candle. (i just realized, this might be just a workaround for what you already did with finding the least lagging landing frames... idk) 2:45 - (not much more to say about level 1 only that i believe ending on an even timer has less lag than an odd number, but if you apply all the improvements it is very likely the timer will already be on 6 here, but just in case you will barely end on an odd number, try to test if losing some frames to make it even again is worth the loading time into level 2.) sorry for typos and stuff, im halfway asleep while i post this...

I can also help with debugging.

This would be the understatement of the year. Within 5 minutes he basicly figured the candles are working the same than monsters. There is still investigation to be done but this alone is just amazing. Here a fool-around proof of concept: Link to video One another important bit about the lag mystery is that apparently, when you pause, the cpu load drop to 80% .... hence why the lag sequence after a pause is quite different than if you dont pause...

Also, today I made a Lua script that displays on screen a list of currently spawned objects, including candles, pickups, monsters, and pretty much everything else including the player HP bar. Note that new objects can be spawned only when the spawning timer hits a multiple of 8, which this script also displays. Actually, it looks like it's different depending on the kind of object or monster. Some spawn every 4 frames, others every 8, others every 16, and other every 32. You can download it from here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/68650558383198335 Edit: script updated.

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/65478467165677605 Link to video The run is optimized up to the end of autoscroller, it is over 1k frames faster than the sub, stage2 boss lost some 30 frames but I havent searched much on how the spawn works. It is almost certain the run can be done under 16min. At this point im not sure if its worth to work further on grey, that just depend if grey and color can co-exist in the vault. I'll finish this run anyway, but maybe my time would be better spent on color for now. Notice there are slight emulation difference with 2.3.2, its sublte tho.

om, nom, nom... want more!