Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Fortranm wrote:
There are no relics for Richter and Maria.
Sounds like Alucard is the only character able to provide for true full completion then. But there's already such a movie on PSX. For the sake of diversity "Maria, all bosses" should be fine, just not marked as full completion. And yeah so far people seem to prefer including that extra boss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Can movie be submitted, if it is not new world record by a time, but same time and more entertaining version, when beat time is most likely not gonna ever happen and author of original time improvement don't want to submit a run, because it is most likely not gonna be accepted? I want to try, because it is cool movie for my opinion.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
zdoroviy_antony wrote:
Can movie be submitted, if it is not new world record by a time, but same time and more entertaining version, when beat time is most likely not gonna ever happen and author of original time improvement don't want to submit a run, because it is most likely not gonna be accepted? I want to try, because it is cool movie for my opinion.
The general answer is yes: if there's no known way to improve the time anymore, but entertainment gets significantly improved, such a run can be accepted, as discussed in the SMB topic.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
How should I interpret the "Did you find this movie entertaining?" question on the workbench?
In particular, if I found something about the submission entertaining that wouldn't be visible in an encode (e.g. the submission notes, or the memory watch during the game), but nothing visible in an unmodified encode is entertaining, should the vote be Yes or No?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Yes the question is only about the movie itself.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I have a question about TASing Pokemon Emerald. I've found 3 reliable ACE payloads that are all executed from inside a battle, and I'd like to know which ones would be accepted because some are shorter/have fewer restrictions/less setup.
1. Rolls the credits, but the game is technically not cleared/beaten. The credits play all the way through without incident, and input is not blocked, meaning you reach 'THE END' screen and can press A to reload the game normally. This is the shortest and quickest payload.
2. Loads the Hall of Fame screen, beats the game internally, and saves it, but requires the game to be reset (via A+B+Start+Select) to tell that the game has actually been beaten. This is slightly larger than 1 but about the same speed. It's also not visually interesting.
3. Modifies save data so that when the game is saved and reloaded, the Hall of Fame map script plays normally. The battle is exited, the game saved and reset, and proceeds as if you actually reached the Hall of Fame in normal gameplay. This is about the same size as 2 and requires a few more seconds of time, because of the soft resetting.
Which, if any of these methods of "beating the game" would be accepted if I used them in a video?
From what I understand in your explanation, setup 1 misses the Hall of Fame screen, setup 2 misses the credits, and setup 3 has everything.
We can say for sure that setup 2 is unlikely to be accepted. It simply doesn't finish the end sequence. (From your explanation it also seems like the viewer couldn't tell it was completed.)
We can also say that setup 3 is likely to be accepted, since it's the most complete ending.
Setup 1 is probably a bit more difficult. You said "the game is technically not beaten", by which I assume you meant it skips the Hallf of Fame and the save. Yet it does play the credits sequence all the way.
If it's reasonable and not too difficult, I think your best chance would be to submit setup 1 but have a movie file with setup 3 ready in case the viewer dislike the missing components of the end. If you simply want to be safe, you can choose setup 3.
In my personal opinion, having made several game end glitch runs myself: If you already have a lot of control over the end, you might as well spend those few seconds making sure it's as complete as possible.
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
In Super Mario Land 2, the Pause bug causes the code execution to return to a wrong place after a VBlank interrupt.
The return address may be $5914 (or other suitable address) in the wrong bank and the game starts executing wrong bytes and eventually causes a block to be created above Mario's head.
Or the return address may be $4067 in the wrong bank which causes the program to eventually jump to RAM where it is possible to have some control over the executed bytes. This may lead to game end glitch, as well as other things such as: immediately ending the level, and other yet unknown outcomes.
Creating a block above Mario can save time in a level in the "Beat Wario" any% category. This category bans the Pause bug's $4067 scenario (game end glitch) by design, since the game end glitch means Wario is skipped. However, it is unclear if the pause bug could in the future be used to simply warp to Wario and then beat him, which would defeat the purpose of the "Beat Wario" category.
----
We are trying to determine if the pause bug should be used in the "Beat Wario" category.
- Would it be ok in the "Beat Wario" any% category to use the pause bug's $5914 scenario (creating blocks) but ban the $4067 scenario (to ban the game end glitch and other variants)?
Or would this be considered an arbitrary goal choice? (since we pick and choose one thing but not the other)
- Does it matter more what's the nature of the two scenarios (that both are ACE bugs), or does it matter more what they do, how severe they are etc. (creating blocks vs. ending the game)?
- Would it be ok to allow pause bug completely as long as Wario is beaten, as long as no "warp to Wario straight away" exploit is found?
We are trying to determine if the pause bug should be used in the "Beat Wario" category.
- Would it be ok in the "Beat Wario" any% category to use the pause bug's $5914 scenario (creating blocks) but ban the $4067 scenario (to ban the game end glitch and other variants)?
Or would this be considered an arbitrary goal choice? (since we pick and choose one thing but not the other)
- Does it matter more what's the nature of the two scenarios (that both are ACE bugs), or does it matter more what they do, how severe they are etc. (creating blocks vs. ending the game)?
- Would it be ok to allow pause bug completely as long as Wario is beaten, as long as no "warp to Wario straight away" exploit is found?
I think one solution that may get around this is a "All Bosses" category name, which preserves the work that has been done (in previous TASes) without allowing for a future case where ACE is used to skip large portions of the game, as opposed to a majority of a single level.
Currently projects: Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (Beat Wario) & Glitchless Human Theory)
In Super Mario Land 2, the Pause bug causes the code execution to return to a wrong place after a VBlank interrupt.
The return address may be $5914 (or other suitable address) in the wrong bank and the game starts executing wrong bytes and eventually causes a block to be created above Mario's head.
Or the return address may be $4067 in the wrong bank which causes the program to eventually jump to RAM where it is possible to have some control over the executed bytes. This may lead to game end glitch, as well as other things such as: immediately ending the level, and other yet unknown outcomes.
What makes the Pause bug lead to one scenario but not the other?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
What makes the Pause bug lead to one scenario but not the other?
The pause bug happens by pausing (rapidly) during lag, and the outcome varies by timing. As long as there is lag, you can reach all possible scenarios.
I like dadinfinitum's suggestion. All bosses sounds better than Beat Wario.
From what I understand in your explanation, setup 1 misses the Hall of Fame screen, setup 2 misses the credits, and setup 3 has everything.
We can say for sure that setup 2 is unlikely to be accepted. It simply doesn't finish the end sequence. (From your explanation it also seems like the viewer couldn't tell it was completed.)
We can also say that setup 3 is likely to be accepted, since it's the most complete ending.
Setup 1 is probably a bit more difficult. You said "the game is technically not beaten", by which I assume you meant it skips the Hallf of Fame and the save. Yet it does play the credits sequence all the way.
If it's reasonable and not too difficult, I think your best chance would be to submit setup 1 but have a movie file with setup 3 ready in case the viewer dislike the missing components of the end. If you simply want to be safe, you can choose setup 3.
In my personal opinion, having made several game end glitch runs myself: If you already have a lot of control over the end, you might as well spend those few seconds making sure it's as complete as possible.
That is correct, 1 skips the Hall of Fame and the save entirely, but plays the complete credits sequence.
I think I'll do what you suggested, and create two different endings with the two setups, and submit 1 first. Thank you!
What makes the Pause bug lead to one scenario but not the other?
The pause bug happens by pausing (rapidly) during lag, and the outcome varies by timing. As long as there is lag, you can reach all possible scenarios.
I like dadinfinitum's suggestion. All bosses sounds better than Beat Wario.
Amusingly, after more thought, while I like the category name and may still use it, I think excluding an ACE glitch is best.
If you include it, every goal seems arbitrary as there is potential to possibly skip large sections of levels, zones, or the entire game. All the categories could just be applying the ACE glitch in different ways to really do the same thing. I think the categories would be too homogenous in their appearance.
If you exclude it, though, there is a very definite difference between the two categories we currently have, and both feel and look very different, and accomplish clear cut goals.
Currently projects: Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (Beat Wario) & Glitchless Human Theory)
I need help with choosing PAL/NTSC version. I had Hogs of War Any% done on PAL because of exclusive glitch which affects health of every unit (it's twice lower) which changes gameplay and strats in general, also saves a bunch of time (at least 15-20 minutes).
Site rules say: "Due to this, PAL versions of ROMs are generally not allowed, unless there are significant technical and/or entertainment merits to using this version."
The thing is - I plan to make a run without doing that glitch. Game runs on approx. 25 fps on both versions, but NTSC version generally runs slightly slower - for instance, you lose an entire second on NTSC over PAL if you chrage grenade throw for 3 seconds or walk on the map for 13 seconds. Can it be considered as "significant technical merit" in my case?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
TommyeAsY wrote:
I need help with choosing PAL/NTSC version. I had Hogs of War Any% done on PAL because of exclusive glitch which affects health of every unit (it's twice lower) which changes gameplay and strats in general, also saves a bunch of time (at least 15-20 minutes).
Site rules say: "Due to this, PAL versions of ROMs are generally not allowed, unless there are significant technical and/or entertainment merits to using this version."
The thing is - I plan to make a run without doing that glitch. Game runs on approx. 25 fps on both versions, but NTSC version generally runs slightly slower - for instance, you lose an entire second on NTSC over PAL if you chrage grenade throw for 3 seconds or walk on the map for 13 seconds. Can it be considered as "significant technical merit" in my case?
First of all, we can't guarantee that a run avoiding a glitch (or using the game version without the glitch) will be entertaining enough to be accepted to Moons. Here's the rating of your any% movie.
Otherwise, it's fine to use a different region version for a different branch if the version difference showcases more unique aspects of that branch. And for this game, since it seems to be a PAL original tweaked later to work on NTSC, using PAL is alright.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Otherwise, it's fine to use a different region version for a different branch if the version difference showcases more unique aspects of that branch. And for this game, since it seems to be a PAL original tweaked later to work on NTSC, using PAL is alright.
Thanks, that was my main concern.
feos wrote:
First of all, we can't guarantee that a run avoiding a glitch (or using the game version without the glitch) will be entertaining enough to be accepted to Moons. Here's the rating of your any% movie.
I understand that. I plan to get a new run because I've got many comments as feedback about run being not as interesting as it would be with full health. I used half-health glitch which essentially gave me opportunity to OHKO almost every enemy unit without walking anywhere, so most of my gameplay was just accurate shots with weapons I have from the very beginning.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
MUGG wrote:
Memory wrote:
What makes the Pause bug lead to one scenario but not the other?
The pause bug happens by pausing (rapidly) during lag, and the outcome varies by timing. As long as there is lag, you can reach all possible scenarios.
I like dadinfinitum's suggestion. All bosses sounds better than Beat Wario.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6449
Location: The land down under.
Fifth, Sixth and Seventh generation consoles all have the same specific function of disabling music in the game's menu.
In some games (specifically 5/6th gen) this greatly saves a great deal of frames due to not loading the music.
We only have 2 games where this case is used (to my knowledge), one for loading and the other for reducing lag (respectively ordered).
[3157] PSX Tekken by Spikestuff in 01:38.92[2952] NES Nobunaga's Ambition by CogneatoSwitch in 12:06.37 - Yes, 3rd Generation.
Ignoring the tiers outright, not caring about anything in regards to "music is entertainment" and strictly focusing on just this factor alone going forward.
Should disabling music specifically to improve the load times (not reducing lag) be allowed in future TASes and would it be a factor in the judge's comments?
I will note that if the answer is Yes that this will open the flood gates of previous movies returning in the light with music disabled. This would be a very strong game changer.
I wish for multiple Judges, as well as ex-Judges (if they want) to put in their thoughts about this please.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
It does not. The pause glitch was found the year after that TAS.
I think it boils down to having an ACE TAS, and a non-ACE TAS. If we start using it in longer categories, it just begs the question "why not use it to it's fullest potential and just beat the game faster?" which is just the current "game end glitch" TAS.
Currently projects: Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (Beat Wario) & Glitchless Human Theory)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Spikestuff wrote:
Fifth, Sixth and Seventh generation consoles all have the same specific function of disabling music in the game's menu.
In some games (specifically 5/6th gen) this greatly saves a great deal of frames due to not loading the music.
We only have 2 games where this case is used (to my knowledge), one for loading and the other for reducing lag (respectively ordered).
[3157] PSX Tekken by Spikestuff in 01:38.92[2952] NES Nobunaga's Ambition by CogneatoSwitch in 12:06.37 - Yes, 3rd Generation.
Ignoring the tiers outright, not caring about anything in regards to "music is entertainment" and strictly focusing on just this factor alone going forward.
Should disabling music specifically to improve the load times (not reducing lag) be allowed in future TASes and would it be a factor in the judge's comments?
I will note that if the answer is Yes that this will open the flood gates of previous movies returning in the light with music disabled. This would be a very strong game changer.
I wish for multiple Judges, as well as ex-Judges (if they want) to put in their thoughts about this please.
When comparing against a prior movie for faster time, the faster time must come from improved play in the actual game-play segments. For example, gaining time by switching to another version which loads faster, has shorter cut-scenes, or by more optimized usage of the title screen menus is not counted as an actual time improvement. A movie which doesn't have any actual in-game game-play improvements over its published predecessor will not be accepted.
You have to improve in-game gameplay to get accepted.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Should disabling music specifically to improve the load times (not reducing lag) be allowed in future TASes and would it be a factor in the judge's comments?
It's not a factor, unless disabling the music has such consequences on lag behavior that it allows the introduction of new tricks or techniques that have some technical relevance.
In other words, it's not considered as improvement if all it does is just shortening the loading times alone.
Apart from that, the author is free to disable music if they prefers so for stylistic choices, if these are still on top of actual gameplay improvements.
Fifth, Sixth and Seventh generation consoles all have the same specific function of disabling music in the game's menu.
In some games (specifically 5/6th gen) this greatly saves a great deal of frames due to not loading the music.
We only have 2 games where this case is used (to my knowledge), one for loading and the other for reducing lag (respectively ordered).
[3157] PSX Tekken by Spikestuff in 01:38.92[2952] NES Nobunaga's Ambition by CogneatoSwitch in 12:06.37 - Yes, 3rd Generation.
Ignoring the tiers outright, not caring about anything in regards to "music is entertainment" and strictly focusing on just this factor alone going forward.
Should disabling music specifically to improve the load times (not reducing lag) be allowed in future TASes and would it be a factor in the judge's comments?
I will note that if the answer is Yes that this will open the flood gates of previous movies returning in the light with music disabled. This would be a very strong game changer.
I wish for multiple Judges, as well as ex-Judges (if they want) to put in their thoughts about this please.
Vault Rules wrote:
However if a movie has entertainment significance which is deemed negatively, such as sickening camera angles, seizure inducing activity, and other rectifiable presentation decisions within it, the movie is ineligible for this category, or any other category for that matter.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
FWIW, Castelian is an example where disabling music (or more accurately selecting SFX instead of music) reduces lag frames.
Though this is a different case, yes? You have to pick SFX OR Music, you can't have both, and which one you like more is purely a stylistic choice. Compare this to 'SFX' or 'SFX and Music', where one obviously has more 'content' than the other.
