Post by MESHUGGAH

Posted: 7/15/2018 5:37 PM

Post subject: Opinions on rerecord count

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EZGames69

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I’ve been thinking lately about how I view rerecords on movies. If the rerecords are high compared to the amount of frames a movie has (like in [3724] NES Super Bat Puncher by scrimpeh in 09:53.34), then I tend to think a lot of work was put into that movie. But sometimes I see movies that also seem like alot of work was put into it, but the rerecord count is either very low or just average. So when you see the rerecord counts of movies, do you think they accurately reflect the amount of work put into them, or are they just simply a statistic?

[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing

Posted: 7/15/2018 5:48 PM

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Memory

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It's a statistic and basically all statistics require context for them to have meaning. I do sometimes look at it for a basic idea of the amount of work, but ultimately submission notes paint a much more detailed picture.

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 7/15/2018 6:14 PM

Post subject: Re: Opinions on rerecord count

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ThunderAxe31

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EZGames69 wrote:

So when you see the rerecord counts of movies, do you think they accurately reflect the amount of work put into them, or are they just simply a statistic?

Before even considering of using the rerecord count as a yardstick, you have to keep in mind that the count itself could be inaccurate due to the emulator's quirks (eg.: using TAStudio) or the habits of the player (eg.: using bots makes it huge, using rewind makes it tiny). Then, you have to also remember that the rerecord count could be faked entirely. So the rerecord count itself can't be 100% trusted, but for argument's sake, let's assume to have a case in which it is accurate. At this point, we have to keep in mind that the efforts put for TASing a game are relative to the game's nature itself. RPG and racing games are the ones that require more trial and error. If you look at the rerecord of many movies, you will notice the overall trend by yourself.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 7/15/2018 6:46 PM

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Warp

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Sometimes rerecord counts get lost (there are published runs with 1 and 2 rerecords, which obviously can't be the case). Sometimes the rerecord count gets hyperinflated due to the use of scripts. In a few cases the rerecord count has been manually changed and doesn't reflect anything.

Posted: 7/15/2018 8:07 PM

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scrimpeh

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It's easy to quickly dismiss Billy Joel Bob's first Super Mario Bros. submission to the site if it has 40 rerecords, but beyond that, the rerecord count is pretty worthless. Often, I end up playing ahead in the TAS to route out the upcoming parts or to explore some glitches, which causes a lot of rerecords. If I do the same exploration stuff outside of the TAS file, these rerecords simply disappear. Consequently, a TAS should be judged purely on its own merit - the gameplay as it appears on the screen. Any surrounding factors are incidental and hugely variable and unreliable.

Posted: 7/23/2018 11:16 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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It's worthy enough for it's purpose. Edit: Personally I use TAS Editor nearly with just the mouse, so for example clearing input very slowly backwards while emulating could be interpreted as additional rerecords per frames drawn depending where was the previous state. I also used to add rerecords between WIPs, so these includes rerecords from test routes not faster than my next version. In TAStudio I use hotkeys heavily but still using the mouse for drawing the next part after filling in R column (going right for 3 minutes) and watch and apply strategy. My latest submissions (no links cause on mobile atm) details: Street Fighter 2010 - 12773, it should be close B.C. Quest - 2286 and 2990. Doesn't includes my testing of the game in real time nor my first WIP. Would be 4000 maybe. Teleroboxer - 7049. The movie was made from scratch but after having the same times as Ryuto, Ive half copied half repainted in TAStudio. Water Ski - 535. I think it should be higher, will try to compare with ploaeed one. But its a game about going forward the river (without a forward movement). GGP - 4608. Maybe.

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 11/17/2018 12:15 AM

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filpAM

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I don't care much about the rerecords counts, I think people look at it because they want to know how much "effort" was put into the movie, but that doesn't helps since you can easily modify the input file with a editor and cheat the rerecord count just to make them look "special".

Posted: 11/17/2018 12:50 AM

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Cyorter

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That moments when I was ignorant (3/4 years ago when I started watching TAS) as you can't believe, at first I thought re-record count was the number of times you restarted the "speedrun" from scratch (yes, I thought TAS and Speedrun was the same). Then, when I started understanding about the basics at TASing I cared about the re-record count, and told myself about the TAS based on that count, either "wow, this was so easy" or "oh sh*t! This TAS is perfect and the best I've seen in my whole life". From 2017 to now, I'm still caring about the re-record count but not as I cared before (above), I try to get the count as closest as I can, when I lost it, I edit it with the last number I remember (or closest number I had), I don't want to cheat the viewers with a huge number, in fact, what would I win with that? And when seeing the count of TAS of others, meh, I just see it, but I don't say nothing about it more than "congrats to that person, that effort got excellent results", if I believe it, of course. I remember when I watched for the first time the MrWint's Coop Diploma TAS, I driven crazy xD then I read the comments and got it xDD

Posted: 11/17/2018 3:16 AM

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The8bitbeast

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I tend to always look at rerecord count, but I also understand the limitations. I mainly use it when I see a new submission by a new author. The rerecord count helps me to decide whether the author realises that they should try to save every frame possible, or whether they have essentially made a LOTAD. That being said, no matter how well known the person is, the rerecord count never completely determines my opinion of the optimization, but it does help to influence it. It's a useful, but far from perfect statistic. Also, scripts change everything.

Posted: 3/25/2019 3:58 PM

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nymx

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ThunderAxe31 has asked me to continue my discussion of re-records in this thread from the submission of: http://tasvideos.org/6312S.html I am a big on re-record counts, because it shows the effort behind someone doing a TAS. Let me bring up the re-record count for sniq's last submitted any% TAS...it is 369385..roughly 3 times the movie length. Now I've collaborated with sniq on a great deal of his work (mainly to get insight on anything in the future that I might do with SM), and I know that this number is highly reflective of his work. He is not the kind of person that just tries something one time and says, "that's it". In fact, he has done so much testing in single areas and abroad, that it shows that level of details is extreme and the quality of his work is of the highest standard. We have seen low-record counts from newbies and the lack of quality shows;however, I'm not un-forgetful about the idea that this number can also be bogus (tampered with, or the TASer is just not understanding that his work is making any progess). As with all TASers, the more we TAS...the more experience and understanding of how crucial it is to strive for perfection. This number actually can become a quality factor and give a preliminary look at the seriousness of a submission. I'm currently working on a TAS that is mostly likely going to be 400K records, when I'm done. If this field was locked out from direct tampering, it will absolutely reflect the effort and time put into...but will not necessarily say that nobody could ever beat it or that it is optimized, but the likely hood would be that it is.

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 3/25/2019 4:06 PM

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Memory

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Thing is that locking it out from editing would exclude any estimated rerecords that are inevitably lost due to incorrectly saving files or crashes amongst other things. Generally if you make your rerecord count look unrealistically high, it wouldn't really benefit you. Besides sometimes rerecord counts CAN be lowered due to more efficient testing or even bots rather than brute force. EDIT: In fact in my last TAS my rerecord count is edited to be LOWER than what it originally was from the input file since I did things irrelevant to the branch I ended up submitting for in that same input file and simply trimmed them out.

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 3/25/2019 4:17 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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Thanks for moving to this thread, nymx... So... I kind of get that you like the idea of having something that can prove the technical quality of a TAS, and it kind of makes sense, as it's often hard to figure out just by watching a video. But in my opinion, it makes much more sense to focus on the submission text, as it can tell a lot more about the background of a TASing project (assuming the author is willing to explain out his work). And if that is still not enough, then I have to note that a TASer can also stream his progresses on Twitch. What's a better proof than showing live your work while it's actually being done?

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 3/25/2019 4:19 PM

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DrD2k9

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While re-record count can be a very good indicator of how much work went into a TAS; it's unfortunately not a metric that really tells us anything about the quality or entertainment value of the final TAS movie itself. I'm sure there are published runs with very high re-record counts, that I personally would find boring. Also, there are likely some with low re-record counts that I would find rather entertaining. Similarly, a high re-record count doesn't guarantee a quality run from a technical aspect; just as a low re-record count doesn't guarantee a poor quality run. Re-record count may be a useful metric as a tool for helping with the judging process (for example, in helping a judge determine how much effort to put into finding potential improvements before accepting/rejecting a run). It is, however, not a metric that I feel should alone sway a judgement one direction or another; I don't expect this has happened much if ever (I have pretty good faith in our judges).

Posted: 3/25/2019 4:27 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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DrD2k9 wrote:

Re-record count may be a useful metric as a tool for helping with the judging process (for example, in helping a judge determine how much effort to put into finding potential improvements before accepting/rejecting a run). It is, however, not a metric that I feel should alone sway a judgement one direction or another; I don't expect this has happened much if ever (I have pretty good faith in our judges).

Actually, Judges shouldn't judge through the rerecord count at all, but only check the optimality through firsthand tests and researching about known techs/records, and then bring actual proofs.

Judge Guidelines wrote:

Avoid saying it "looks" improvable. Instead, take the time to show that it IS improvable. Show an existing WIP, or make a short one of your own. Document some specifics rather than making blanket statements impossible to prove.

Edit: it's true that sometimes we point out the rerecord counts when it's very low, but it's only for helping newbies in noticing about how little effort they did put when compared to the trend.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 3/25/2019 11:37 PM

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nymx

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ThunderAxe31 wrote:

it makes much more sense to focus on the submission text, as it can tell a lot more about the background of a TASing project (assuming the author is willing to explain out his work). And if that is still not enough, then I have to note that a TASer can also stream his progresses on Twitch. What's a better proof than showing live your work while it's actually being done?

The submission text is always another point for judgement; however, my 2nd submission had content that was referring to techniques that have never been submitted before (IE spike-spark/flash suit and boomerang). It still wasn't enough to counter the category selection for my goal. With my first two submissions (rejections of course), they didn't have the re-record count (because I didn't know what I was doing with the input file). Because of that, some believed that I didn't put enough effort into...so it was un-provable, except for the span of time between my first and second submission and the reduction of running time. The entire process must be taken in consideration, even the feedback from the discussion thread. But, I guess I'm one of the few people that see a valid re-record count as a reason to investigate a TAS deeper. Whenever I see a ridiculously low re-record count, it kinda makes me want to walk away a bit or either vote something other than yes.

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 3/26/2019 11:28 AM

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Memory

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I mean a low rerecord count can definitely be a hint that one might want to look into a game more but it's not definitive.

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 3/26/2019 11:55 AM

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Niamek

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Not sure if this has been discussed, but I was wondering if hiding the rerecord count (from everyone or just from the members) could be a viable way to avoid any bias in rerecord count before watching a movie? A lot of submissions gets called out for the low rerecord count and high rerecord count movies get praised.

Posted: 3/26/2019 12:07 PM

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Spikestuff

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I mean that also applies to first time submission goers most of the time and it's notable by watching it to top it.

WebNations/Sabih wrote:

+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.

Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.

Posted: 3/26/2019 12:13 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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Niamek wrote:

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I was wondering if hiding the rerecord count (from everyone or just from the members) could be a viable way to avoid any bias in rerecord count before watching a movie? A lot of submissions gets called out for the low rerecord count and high rerecord count movies get praised.

You can hide your rerecord count by setting it to zero. By doing this, in the submission page it will be reported as "(unknown)". This is also useful when you used too much bots or when you lost your real rerecord count for whatever reason.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 3/26/2019 2:21 PM

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Niamek

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I didn't mean it exactly like this. I mean removing the rerecord field from the site so it can't be seen by everyone, but the admins (and judges if needed).

Posted: 3/26/2019 3:19 PM

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Spikestuff

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To be fair if it was removed from me (and if I wasn't staff) I would just download and glance at the file. (Then again I create points before landing on making a comment about re-records).

WebNations/Sabih wrote:

+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.

Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.

Posted: 3/26/2019 3:22 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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Niamek wrote:

I didn't mean it exactly like this. I mean removing the rerecord field from the site so it can't be seen by everyone, but the admins (and judges if needed).

If someone gets biased due to something so simple like a rerecord count, then hiding it wouldn't help much, as there are things that affect the opinions of biased people much more than that, like being familiar with the game choice or having trust towards the movie author. By the way, in my opinion the person that needs the most to see the rerecord count is the author of the movie itself, as it helps to be aware of their own efforts. So please, don't try to use it as a mean to point out the value of a movie; instead talk about the specific tricks and movements used, go as much in detail as possible, because looking at the actual results of the work is more useful than talking about how much struggle there have been. In fact, struggling hard isn't always necessarily profitable, as it's directly proportional to how functional and efficient have been these efforts.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 3/26/2019 3:33 PM

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DrD2k9

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Niamek wrote:

I didn't mean it exactly like this. I mean removing the rerecord field from the site so it can't be seen by everyone, but the admins (and judges if needed).

Some additional thoughts stemmed from the above. Is displaying rerecord count necessary once a run is published? If the run is accepted as worthy of publication, does anyone need to know the re-record count beyond that point? If someone wants to try and beat a current publication, whether they do so with more or less rerecords isn't really important so long as they succeed in actually beating the active publication. I don't personally care if they are present or not in a publication (as I tend to completely ignore the rerecord count when watching already published runs anyway), I just had the above curiosities. I realize that some may use a published rerecord number as an indicator of how much work went into the published TAS, and thus, use that information to sway their decision on if they want to try and beat the run; but I personally don't think someone else's rerecord count should be a factor in choosing a specific game. I feel that if someone wants to TAS a specific game they should, regardless of how much/little work someone else has put into that game in the past.

Posted: 3/26/2019 3:57 PM

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creaothceann

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nymx wrote:

Let me bring up the re-record count for sniq's last submitted any% TAS...it is 369385..roughly 3 times the movie length.

There's no direct correlation between the number of frames in the movie and the number of rerecordings... unless someone decides to keep track of the number of removed frames.

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