When it comes to timing runs, TAS movies and RTA speedruns typically (but not always) use different timing conventions/rules.
As a general rule, our runs/publications are timed from power-on to final input. RTA timing rules can vary greatly from game to game. Many (if not most) don't start from power-on. Many have visual cues for end-of-timing as well, not the last necessary input.
Would it be worthwhile to have a site page dedicated to recording how our TAS runs would be timed using game-specific RTA rules (likely from speedrun.com and/or speeddemosarchive.com)?
For example:
NES Circus Caperhttp://tasvideos.org/3393M.html
TAS Time using TAS Rules = 7:03.75
Current (as of this post) HUMAN speedrun.com WR = 6:40
TAS Time using RTA Rules = 6:20.72
RTA Rules Link = https://www.speedrun.com/Circus_Caper
As can be seen for this particular game, the TAS timing rules result in a longer finish time than the RTA rules. This is not always the case, sometimes the RTA rules are longer than TAS rules timing.
What such a page would primarily accomplish is to highlight the comparisons of TAS vs Human ability (at least in regard to outright speed).
Not having the comparison, a quick glance makes it appear that the human RTA run is faster than the TAS run. Showing the TAS's time using RTA rules however clearly demonstrates that the TAS is in truth approximately 20 seconds faster than the current WR human run.
I'm willing to curate such a list if it would be considered a valuable resource.
So...what are your thoughts? If we do go for something like this, what should we title the page?
Yeah, to have the same timing for TAS movies and RTA speedruns would be really great thing.
But i highly doubt that TAS rules regarding timing will be changed, after so many years of using it.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
For high-profile runs, we sometimes write the time using other timing methods in the movie description. That seems like a better place to put it than having a centralised page listing every run.
Bear in mind that you have to specify the exact timing method used, because timing methods vary among the unassisted speedrunning community. (The term "RTA" used to refer to a timing method that went from power on to end of credits, always giving a higher time than TAS timing, although it's become more generic since because the timing method in question is rarely used nowadays. Other timing methods used for unassisted running, such as SDA real-time timing and in-game timing, can give different results.)
As variant we can keep both timing in title, something like:
[TAS] NNN - any% by NNN in 18:05 (17:58 RTA).
But we have thousands TASes... so it will be enormous work to correctly measure all published TASes with RTA timing.
And also as mentioned abow by ais523 in some cases RTA timing methods vary among.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
As someone who wants to keep a list of movies that were beaten by RTA (when comparing RTA times for movies), I would really appreciate a page like this. I think it will generally help for those who do want to see how the game compares to RTA and to make sure if they are wanting to obsolete an old run, that they can see if their tas at least beats the RTA record if the TAS is slower due to older tricks and the such.
Archanfel wrote:
As variant we can keep both timing in title, something like:
[TAS] NNN - any% by NNN in 18:05 (17:58 RTA).
But we have thousands TASes... so it will be enormous work to correctly measure all published TASes with RTA timing.
And also as mentioned abow by ais523 in some cases RTA timing methods vary among.
I also want to point out that not all games with movies have RTA runs for them. for example: [3700] A2600 Crazy Balloon by EZGames69 in 04:02.13
So we cant exactly reference the RTA rules for that game if those rules dont yet exist.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
...But i highly doubt that TAS rules regarding timing will be changed, after so many years of using it.
I haven't suggested this page as a reason to try an alter our rules...nor do I think our rules need altered.
It's just intended to be a page for reference and comparison.
ais523 wrote:
For high-profile runs, we sometimes write the time using other timing methods in the movie description. That seems like a better place to put it than having a centralised page listing every run.
Bear in mind that you have to specify the exact timing method used, because timing methods vary among the unassisted speedrunning community...Other timing methods used for unassisted running, such as SDA real-time timing and in-game timing, can give different results.)
While having a note in the publications themselves would be nice, having a consolidated list in a centralized location would also benefit those trying to quickly find published TAS runs that may have been beaten by RTA methods (kinda what EZGames69 is talking about).
Regarding exact timing rules: if the page is created, a link to the timing rules for each game would be included with the time differences. In the event that we use an atypical TAS timing method for a game's publication itself, a note would also be included for those games.
Archanfel wrote:
As variant we can keep both timing in title, something like:
[TAS] NNN - any% by NNN in 18:05 (17:58 RTA).
But we have thousands TASes... so it will be enormous work to correctly measure all published TASes with RTA timing.
And also as mentioned abow by ais523 in some cases RTA timing methods vary among.
While it may be a daunting task to start with, I'm willing to work through the current publications and curate the list as I am able. I've already got a jump on this from looking into post-completion input stuff.
Variation in RTA timing method is addressed by linking to the game-specific rules.
EZGames69 wrote:
I also want to point out that not all games with movies have RTA runs for them. for example: [3700] A2600 Crazy Balloon by EZGames69 in 04:02.13
So we cant exactly reference the RTA rules for that game if those rules dont yet exist.
True. For those games, we could just have a note that the RTA time is Not Applicable, and/or that specific rules haven't been established.
For games that do have RTA runs but the rules aren't written, we'd have to make some sort of estimate on when the RTA runs start and stop based on the videos of those runs.
Variation in RTA timing method is addressed by linking to the game-specific rules.
Wait, are you assuming that all speedrunning communities for each specific game use the same rules as each other (e.g. by following the rules on speedrun.com)?
speedrun.com isn't the end of the Internet, and the decisions made there might or might not be representative of other communities for the games in question. I'd be opposed to giving it any sort of special status, especially as it has no consistent global rules (with the rules for each game being up to a moderator who might or might not have any strong connection to the community of the game in question).
I'm not assuming anything regarding RTA rules. The examples I gave were just options.
I'm open to other sources for defining the RTA rules. I already also mentioned speeddemosarchive.com for example. Other options are always possible.
I am wholeheartedly in favor of this. TAS timing is quite a bit different than RTA timing and it's difficult if not impossible to compare the two directly.
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We probably don't need a page specifically since we can do what SMB does which is actually write in the description with the RTA time in mind and state what that is when the timings are different where it needs the check.
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