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Mylo Steamwitz is back with another get-rich-quick scheme after the failure of his twibble ranch in volume 1, and must return to the Crystal Caves to scrape up the capital to start a medicinal slug farm.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: JPC-RR r11.7
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Takes damage to save time
  • No cheats or out-of-bounds glitch

Comments

You can see my submission of the first volume for a summary of game mechanics. This video uses the same HDD image, BIOS, and FreeDOS image as that video.

Run Commentary

Like the first volume, this is a platformer where quality of execution and efficient routing are your only tools for saving time. The few scenes that I think are noteworthy:
  • The first stage in the recording is the craziest; there's tons of monster dodging, falling stalactites, and tight jumps in weird spaces.
  • The jump around 6:17-6:18 is trickier than it looks. I spent an entire day testing the jump from different pixels before discovering that I had to stutter-step and start running from a new position before the jump could work.
  • I love the dinosaur chase sequence at 9:00
  • Room 12 (using the games internal numbering system), which runs from 17:35-19:34, caused me to abandon this run in frustration for a while. The platforms are out of sync, the gravity reverse lasts way too long, and it's literally impossible to jump out from the upper left or right platforms if you enter them using reverse gravity.

Potential Improvements

I have put my best effort into using the most efficient routing, but JPC makes it incredibly difficult to make improvements once you've moved past a particular timestamp. It may be the case that a faster route is possible by using a different level order on the overworld map, but it would essentially require multiple complete TAS recordings to compare. There may be opportunities for individual level routing improvement, especially in room 12 (17:35-19:34), and if the overworld routing changes the RNG seeds for enemy positioning, falling boulder timing, etc.

Acknowledgements

My thanks to the forums for support and feedback during the WIP stage, and to the Crystal Caves Speedrun discord channel for routing assistance and encouragement.

feos: As it was said many times, we really love your enthusiasm, DungeonFacts! Please keep on trying and learning. It just happens that at this point, with this game's complexity, a higher level of skills is required. After having watched your work and tried this game myself (it's weird to think that I learned JPC-RR TASing just to reject a movie), I am not even sure you tried to optimize everything.
You bump into corners while jumping, losing speed, delay jumps for a few frames for no reason, even delay starting running. This means you need to understand that every action you intend to do should happen as soon as possible, and also how to achieve that. It's also been noted that JPC-RR is very bad at being handy, so all you traditionally had was saving a series of states on consecutive frames and then trying to start your action from each state, checking whichever works out the best. That way you don't have to remember how many frames you need to delay from your rewind keyframe state: it serves as a backup, while optimization is done using all the other slots you have. Each result you like should be saved to an extra state, and if you're checking all the results at some new keyframe point, all resulting states should be saved at that same point. Then you just load them one by one, noting the difference and picking the winner. This should happen for every event and action that affects your overall progression speed. You're not doing it for at least a lot of such events.
Another critical aspect is minor routing. While major routes one can plan out while playing without TAS tools, there are always several ways to approach some parts of the movie. As a test, just to see how it works, sloppy input can be used, but if you're unsure which option is actually better, you then optimize each of them and do the comparison as described above.
Next, redoing the same room. After having done the room for the first time, even with all the above optimization, you now have the knowledge about it that you didn't have when starting. Moreover, you now have some of the options already tested, so you can try beating your own times. Rewatch your segment in a separate instance (or in a video editor to trivialize rewind) and just try to beat the old strats.
Here's the page where I tried to collect all the hints on how to improve your TASing skills. And here's the whole Guide that page belongs to, it has lots of really useful advices for all cases.
Rejecting for sub-optimality, and better luck next time!


TASVideoAgent
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Yes! Happy to see this submitted.
Noxxa
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I concur, I'm glad to see this submitted. Even if there's room for potential improvements (like the stage order of the last three stages), I think it's a good enough effort. Yes vote.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Great work, yes vote!
DrD2k9
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Yay for more DOS games! Keep up the good work.
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I've been looking forward to this submission. Yes vote for sure!
JPC makes it incredibly difficult to make improvements once you've moved past a particular timestamp
FYI, I'm getting close to completing an emulator upgrade that will make this a whole lot easier. I'm expecting to have it out by the end of the year. :)
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This game just doesn't strike me as interesting. I found the author's routing more interesting. I mean that in a good way, because it kept me from voting 'no'. I think 2 things really kept me on the fence: Lack of music, and bland downtime. While I can fully appreciate the era and its limitations, I can't say it was too entertaining.
DrD2k9
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c-square wrote:
FYI, I'm getting close to completing an emulator upgrade that will make this a whole lot easier. I'm expecting to have it out by the end of the year. :)
This is very exciting news!
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Great work, DungeonFacts! I'll take this for publication if it gets accepted. I go on a short vacation (lasting just over a week) starting tomorrow, but I've already prepared all the encodes just in case.
I'm not as active as I once was, but I can be reached here if I should be needed.
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A couple questions while I'm checking optimality: Does this game have any kind of full completion criterion? How much time does the OoB glitch save? So far doesn't sound like that'd be eligible to the fastest completion category.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
A couple questions while I'm checking optimality: Does this game have any kind of full completion criterion?
At minimum, all colored gems (except hidden in-block ones) must be collected in each level. Then all levels must be marked as completed to get to the end game story/credits/HS table. A theoretical 100% run could include getting all point items, killing all enemies, etc. This would not need to include the random fruit that pops up in various places.
feos wrote:
How much time does the OoB glitch save? So far doesn't sound like that'd be eligible to the fastest completion category.
The OOB glitch eliminates having to complete two levels by using a glitch to mark two of the levels complete without entering them....thus it'll save two levels worth of time. IIRC it's Levels 8 & 9 as internally numbered by the game. I don't know which of the two levels in this run are 8 & 9. The glitch exists in all 3 Crystal Caves games (levels 8 & 9 in all three I believe) . As the glitch allows for faster completion by negating the need to complete two levels, this should probably have the branch "all levels" or something similar to differentiate it from a true fastest completion run. (Though one doesn't exist...yet) EDIT: As a note. The current publication of CC1 should probably also contain the branch note as it also doesn't use the OOB glitch.
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Simply avoiding a glitch doesn't mean it'd become full completion. Also the problem is that while both movies got great feedback on forum, the resulting movie rating was somewhat poor regarding entertainment. So neither movie seems to be vaultable, and their entertainment value happens to be borderline, despite of all the posts (this happens every once in a while).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Regarding full completion: I know we tend to not consider RTA guidelines, but for reference...
speedrun.com/crystalcaves2#100 wrote:
Collect all items that award points in each level, including all hidden gems, all treasure chests, and all five B+O+N+U+S eggs (in the levels that have them), but NOT including the fruit that randomly appears. There are no runs yet, so the above definition of "100%" is open for debate. (For instance, I did not include the "Perfect Health" bonus since that would prevent any damage boosting, though maybe it would still be interesting?) Glitches are allowed. Use of XTRA, NEXT, and ZEUS cheat codes are NOT allowed. Timing starts when you gain control of Mylo in the "Main Level", and ends when Mylo begins to exit the final level (for the exact frame, this is when the final door begins to open).
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We don't blindly disregard the RTA rules either. If they happen to meet our rules, for example we have a note about community agreement, we can use them.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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"All Levels" might be a better descriptor of this submission when compared against the criteria you list, if using the OoB glitch would still qualify as any%. It's definitely not full completion for the reasons DrD2k9 already listed. I will also agree that the same note would belong on my submission for volume 1. Unrelated directly to this submission, I think the Perfect Health score bonus would be required for a 100% Completion TAS despite it not being part of the recommended RTA strategy. I don't really have an opinion on which category it would be published to. I wasn't even expecting to get the first one accepted, so if the judges would rather put this in the Vault I certainly won't complain.
Memory
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DungeonFacts wrote:
" I don't really have an opinion on which category it would be published to. I wasn't even expecting to get the first one accepted, so if the judges would rather put this in the Vault I certainly won't complain.
We cannot publish the movie to vault since it is neither fastest completion without restrictions or full completion. See the movie rules section about this for details.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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DungeonFacts wrote:
"All Levels" might be a better descriptor of this submission when compared against the criteria you list, if using the OoB glitch would still qualify as any%. It's definitely not full completion for the reasons DrD2k9 already listed. I will also agree that the same note would belong on my submission for volume 1.
So need to add "all levels" to title here and there.
feos wrote:
Also the problem is that while both movies got great feedback on forum, the resulting movie rating was somewhat poor regarding entertainment.
To solve all problems with unvaultable goal, why not to generously accept it as weak moon, like Volume 1. I voted Yes by the way.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Archanfel wrote:
To solve all problems with unvaultable goal, why not to generously accept it as weak moon, like Volume 1.
I agree with this.
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Apparently DOS games TASes get good feedback on forums, get to Moons, and then no one cares about rating them aside from those who find them really boring. It would really help if the DOS crowd that likes the submissions also showed that they like the publications.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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There are a lot of games that no one cares to rate (regardless of platform). The overall low number of post-publication ratings across any game published on the site is testament to that. Even some of the most popular NES games, for example, have only 30-50 ratings, if that. That seems to me a very low number of ratings considering the member base we have here. I mean no offense to those who actually do post-publication ratings with the following statements. The number of ratings most published games receive (regardless of platform) appears to me to be connected to a game's general popularity not to the fact that it's been published, thus popular games get more ratings (even then very few, as mentioned above) and subsequently have more valid post-publication values. It appears to me that the bulk of watchers simply aren't interested in doing post-publication rating (many probably aren't interested in pre-publication voting even). This again brings up the debate on whether pre or post publication entertainment feedback is more valid for determining tier. So here are 2 proposed solutions: 1) Publish a run into a given tier based on its pre-publication feedback (which we pretty much do). Then have have some threshold number of post-publication ratings necessary (i'd recommend no fewer than 10) before a run can be promoted/demoted based on it's post-publication rating score. The threshold number needs to be high enough to ensure a sampling of more than 2-3 people's opinions. If the threshold is not met, it cannot be moved from its current tier. A low number of ratings alone shouldn't demote a run. Low interest is not equivalent to low entertainment. 2)Publish all accepted runs into a 'holding tank.' They can then only be moved from the holding tank to the star/moon/vault tier once they achieve the required threshold of ratings. If a vault ineligible run results in low rating value after the threshold is met, it is simply purged from the holding tank and not moved to moons tier. I don't expect encoders/publishers to like this method as it may cause them more work, but it would eliminate the possibility of future low entertainment non-vaultable runs from erroneously being published in moons with no way to remove it from that tier. EDIT: ok it may not completely eliminate the possibility of future low entertainment non-vaultable runs from erroneously being published in moons. But it should at least drastically minimize the possibility. END EDIT Side note 1: 2 questions: Can non-members rate published runs? (allowing this may garner more ratings...or maybe it won't) Why/how are anonymous ratings allowed? Either all ratings should be anonymous (worse idea in my opinion) or all ratings should be attributed publicly to who made the rating (better idea in my opinion). There shouldn't be both options allowing some people to hide ratings behind anonymity. I'm not claiming they should be required to, but raters should be willing to defend their rating(s). This follows the same trend judges use with pre-publication voting (votes with forum explanations tend to hold more value than unexplained votes). Side note 2: Kudos to Arc for actually taking the time to rate EVERYTHING post-publication!
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Yeah currently post-publication ratings system is almost non functional. Many movies has only a few ratings after many years... such ratings system is useless. To become really important part of site (not to be the fifth wheel as now) ratings system require major reforms/improvements.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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I did a sloppy test on this 11-second segment (TASing in JPC-RR for the first time). You seem to be losing at least 72 frames there just to jumping and turning. Should I have avoided collecting any score items?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
I did a sloppy test on this 11-second segment (TASing in JPC-RR for the first time). You seem to be losing at least 72 frames there just to jumping and turning. Should I have avoided collecting any score items?
Suffice it to say, I've got a lot to learn.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
There are a lot of games that no one cares to rate (regardless of platform). The overall low number of post-publication ratings across any game published on the site is testament to that. Even some of the most popular NES games, for example, have only 30-50 ratings, if that. That seems to me a very low number of ratings considering the member base we have here.
Yes. There was a discussion a year (?) ago about making the rating controls more visible, requiring less clicks, and less confusing. I think it ended up being postponed to the ongoing major site design?
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Tried last level. Saved 108 frames on a 22-second segment. Movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.