This is a legitimate category speedrun by dozens of people, so I don't see a good reason to keep it from Vault.

if we allowed cheat runs for vault, then the majority of them would would be using a level password or similar to skip all the game content and go straight to the final boss or the last level. I would be entirely against this because why not show the rest of the game? Unless a game end glitch or ace discovered, there should be no real reason to skip all of the game content.

I voted no. I didn't find the way the cheats are used here entertaining. I get the impression that this game features plenty of room for interesting techniques and glitches to travel through worlds in interesting ways, but this movie doesn't really show it for me. I'd be interested in seeing a TAS that shows more of the game being played, but that may be just me. As others have stated already, the rule on cheats isn't strict, but exceptions are rare, and they depend on what the movie aims to achieve with it. Cheats abused to get a faster record than normally possible are generally considered, well, cheating, and henceforth usually aren't accepted here. A few people have brought up Biker Mice from Mars, but besides the fact that that movie was judged and published more than ten years ago under a different judging system; it's not a straight up speedrun, but it's more of a demonstration (and is tagged as such). It doesn't aim to get the fastest speedrun time for the game, but it aims to show off ludicrous speed and inhuman course control. Likewise, Mega Man X's password glitch run, also mentioned, is also tagged as demonstration, and doesn't have the Fastest Completion flag, because it's not considered a speed record. Now, I fully respect the BfBB RTA community's interest in running this category, and of course they're free to run whatever they like and compete at whatever they like. However, TASVideos has a global set of rules to cover all the games it features, not just this one, and disallowing in-game codes/cheating in most cases is one of those global rules. Based on the posts I've read so far and based on what I'm reading from the poll, it seems the TASVideos community generally agrees with the TASVideos rule here. It's fine if the BfBB RTA community likes having in-game code categories, but the TASVideos community is a different one, and clearly they largely have a different opinion on what constitutes acceptable cheat usage.

Fair enough, Mothrayas. Shall we remove this submission? Or close this thread? Seems we've reached a consensus.

Fair enough, Mothrayas. Shall we remove this submission? Or close this thread? Seems we've reached a consensus.

You may cancel if you like by going to the submission page clicking edit in the sidebar and setting the submission status to canceled. Otherwise we can wait until I perform my judgment.

Unless a game end glitch or ace discovered, there should be no real reason to skip all of the game content.

And this is the problem I have with a rule that disallows cheats. A major glitch that skips most of the game is acceptable and even encouraged, but an ingame code is not? This is not a Game Genie modifying the game to do whatever it wants. This is something the developers left in, either intentionally or in some cases on accident.

Unless a game end glitch or ace discovered, there should be no real reason to skip all of the game content.

And this is the problem I have with a rule that disallows cheats. A major glitch that skips most of the game is acceptable and even encouraged, but an ingame code is not? This is not a Game Genie modifying the game to do whatever it wants. This is something the developers left in, either intentionally or in some cases on accident.

A game end glitch requires much more creativity and effort as opposed to a built in cheat.

A game end glitch requires much more creativity and effort as opposed to a built in cheat.

Of course, but that doesn't mean the latter is devoid or even lacking in creativity or effort compared to other games.

2014 | Spongebob Squarepants: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23

Out of curiosity, why was this TAS never submitted?

This discussion arguably goes beyond the scope of this thread. If you would like to continue it, I recommend we do so elsewhere.

Out of curiosity, why was this TAS never submitted?

Looks at YouTube Description like a sane person should. >Suboptimal.

I hope this doesn't stop you (or others) from making more runs of this game in the future. If it helps, I was entertained.

It's the first time I'm watching a video of this game, and I must say that it looks like a pretty cool game. Still, I find it sad that most of it was skipped, regardless of the cheats usage. Also, while the glitches are cool, I feel that everything happened too fast for me to be able to enjoy watching... So it's a No vote from me. By the way, I feel that due to the niche nature of this movie, it would be only apprecciated by people that follow the speedrunning scene, and not by average fans of this game.

I hope this doesn't stop you (or others) from making more runs of this game in the future.

Thanks for this, jlun2. I agree.

This category reminds me of a newgame+ more than anything else (except that cheat codes are used to unlock the fully powered state rather than an existing save file). Would there be some way to make a similar run starting from a completed save file? If so, it would likely be less controversial (but still might be rejected if it's perceived to have insufficient entertainment value).

There's been a lot of misunderstanding here. A lot of epithets have been thrown around. A few people tried carefully reading the rules, but the official approach of the site remained unclear to the participants. First and foremost, we want our content to look impressive, entertaining, superhuman. Second, in addition to that, we also want our content to be done as fast as possible within the imposed conditions. Third, we try to make decisions that are solid, consider all the known factors, can be used as a future reference, highlight and clarify our official stance. Our rules try to fulfill these requirements and to set the direction for the site and for TASers. Our audience is broader than one might think. Just like there are open-minded and contemporary RTA people who allow internal cheat codes, there are purists who prefer things to be played as legitimately as possible. There are also people who don't really know what TAS is, but happen to find it amusing. On top of that there are tons of ignorant strangers who just want to scream out that TASing is by definition cheating and must not be respected. Our duty is to host this hobby and to protect it from unreasonable accusations. Legitimacy is not an absolute scale, you can look legitimate for some people, and not for others. We try to look legitimate to as many people as possible, and upon partial analysis, this legitimacy must persist. For this reason, we ban cheats that simply make the game easier for the sake of it. There are actually lots of cases when we do allow cheats, it's the absolute opposite of a blanket rule. We allow codes if they:

• Unlock a harder difficulty mode
• Unlock a level set
• Unlock a character
• Unlock other similar means of playing the game in unusual way
• Unlock something that just has to be unlocked for full completion
• Make the game generally more appealing, as long as parts of the game are not skipped
• Are mentioned in the manual or directly suggested by the game as a means of normal play

But we do not allow blatant cheats that just give you unfair advantage. [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf & total in 14:52.88 was allowed because it uses GT code to access a game breaking glitch which results in play dramatically harder than in any other SM TAS branch. And in the end, it was extremely entertaining to the general audience. [1296] SNES Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts by Ferret_Warlord in 17:03.00 was allowed because the game consists of 2 loops that are identical, except the second one is harder and is the only way to access the final boss. So in general, it simply unlocks the harder mode (and a boss). [2059] SNES Mega Man X "password glitch" by FractalFusion in 16:56.88 was allowed because 1) there's no real password that's supposed to be doing this, it's just a glitch in the password system itself, 2) gameplay dramatically changes to something that can't be seen in other MMX branches, 3) the game becomes harder, 4) the result, even though controversial, is still entertaining to the general audience. [802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62 was accepted just because it was ridiculously entertaining. It was the old judging system, no Vault existed, rules weren't too strict, because TASing wasn't so popular, and not enough edge cases existed to demand stricter rules. If that movie was submitted today, people would unlikely find it too entertaining. Back then it appeared like a bolt from the blue, and people didn't mind the codes after seeing how cool it looked. Much like [1572] SNES Top Gear 2 by Dooty in 11:50.62, though that one wasn't as entertaining. The idea about these 2 movies is that they can't serve as precedents. The lack of proper judgment indicates that. As for this submission, check it against the above and answer the question whether it can be published here or not (and why), by yourself.

Excellent response, feos, but I feel like your explication of the rules just validates my original opinion. In this case, the codes used don't hit any of the following points. The moves unlocked almost hit the "Unlock other similar means of playing the game in unusual way", but I think they're much better suited for the 200% category I mentioned (100% IGC on speedrun.com). The main reason the cheats are used is to unlock access to the final boss fight, which has a currently unskippable 75 spatula requirement. In my opinion, the spatula cheats are the only problem. The move cheats give access to interesting glitches much earlier than a cheatless run, so I think that on their own, they can be perfectly acceptable. Were there to be some way to glitch into the final boss fight, I think it would be interesting enough to warrant a run that starts with cheats, but that's not the case here. The way I see it, the use here is akin to just jumping straight to the final boss with a code, much like you can do in the awful GBA version of this game. As such, my vote remains "no". I've seen the author's unoptimized full-game TASes in the past. FusionVaria, I'd love to see those come to fruition.

I've seen the author's unoptimized full-game TASes in the past. FusionVaria, I'd love to see those come to fruition.

I'm working on it, but this game is a long way away from having a finished no-in-game-codes route (it doesn't help that we keep finding new things). Someday a full game TAS will be made, though unless a more stable Dolphin is released, it will not be submitted here, as movies over ~15 minutes in this game tend to desync. Perhaps that will happen though, as I've got two other full game TASes on my plate already, and I don't imagine I'll be doing anything more than routing in BfBB for quite a long time.

Well it is a competitive RTA category. I am always fond of TAS showing what's the "perfect" version of a category for RTA to try for. Is the final boss what the final boss would look like in an optimal minimum spatula run, or some moves used here not obtainable/time efficient to obtain in a no-cheats minimum spatula run?

The first phase would be identical in a TAS without codes, second phase would be slightly different.

I'm curious if the community's "NG+" category would be accepted on this site. We've essentially created our own New Game Plus by allowing two, and only two cheat codes: unlock the Bubble Bowl, and unlock the Cruise Bubble. You still need to play the whole game and collect 75 spatulas, but you start off with all your powers already. It substantially changes up the game, even allowing you to skip two really slow boss fights. I can repost this question in the SpongeBob thread if it's beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm curious if the community's "NG+" category would be accepted on this site. We've essentially created our own New Game Plus by allowing two, and only two cheat codes: unlock the Bubble Bowl, and unlock the Cruise Bubble. You still need to play the whole game and collect 75 spatulas, but you start off with all your powers already. It substantially changes up the game, even allowing you to skip two really slow boss fights.

I'm not sure how well it would be received here, but I personally think it'd be an interesting run for TASVideos. I think 100% IGC would be even better though, as I said earlier.

I think so too. For 100% IGC, you could even justify the spatula cheats, which let you do the levels (which you still can't skip) in any order you please. But it comes down to the same question for each, doesn't it: do the codes make the game interesting enough to be worth an exception?

om, nom, nom... sweet!