Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Nye wrote:
I've just finished my TAS of Nights into Dreams and before I submit it I thought that I should check to see if there are any issues or things that could be changed.
For the run I complete both characters three unique stages and then select the final stage. The thing about this is that both characters share the same final stage and I only complete one of them to reach the credits and get that characters ending.
The stage is identical between the two, so would it be fine if I just leave things as is to avoid repeating the same stage/boss fight.
What's your movie's goal/branch?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I've just finished my TAS of Nights into Dreams and before I submit it I thought that I should check to see if there are any issues or things that could be changed.
For the run I complete both characters three unique stages and then select the final stage. The thing about this is that both characters share the same final stage and I only complete one of them to reach the credits and get that characters ending.
The stage is identical between the two, so would it be fine if I just leave things as is to avoid repeating the same stage/boss fight.
What's your movie's goal/branch?
From what I know about NiGHTS into Dreams, this sounds based on the "All Levels" RTA category and I imagine the submission would use the same label.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
For such cases, we usually do 2 branches, one for each character. But since this game is still most likely Moons content, I don't think the "all levels" movie will have to be split into 2 just to be acceptable.
Overall though, when the movie is already done, it doesn't matter if you ask here or just submit right away, because the decision will most likely be the same. Instead, if you're unsure about acceptability, ask about your goals before you even start the run.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Now that Linux TASes are accepted to the site, we have an interesting corner case: Some games (like Towerfall Ascension) run at arbitrary FPSes, and get asymptotically faster the higher the FPS is (you can make tighter turns, some tricks speed up asymptotically, etc). If a TAS of such a game is submitted that adds no new strategy but merely goes faster by setting the FPS higher and copying the route, would this TAS be accepted or rejected and why?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'm judging that run specifically because of its framerate choice, as I want to come up with a solution that handles such cases the best. If you want to share opinion or suggest food for thoughts on that matter, post it in TFA submission thread.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Given that Starman Skip is just stutter walking and is even allowed in the completely inbounds run, I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Where can I read which pokemon games are considered the same game by tasvideos standards?
Mothrayas wrote:
A Red run has obsoleted a Yellow run, so technically any of the Gen 1 games are fair game for obsoleting each other. It would depend on the category, though. A glitchless Red run obsoleting a glitchless Yellow run (or vice versa) would be silly.
That said, back when the first SRAM glitch run was published, it didn't obsolete the JPN door glitch run because it was considered "different enough to warrant a new category" (so not to obsolete the Green run), establishing that the Green run is no longer published as any%. The same SRAM glitch could be done on the Japanese versions - it's not exclusive to the newer releases.
Actually, considering its rating and our present-day publication structure, it probably should be retroactively obsoleted now.
Could Yellow or Yellow (JPN) obsolete [3655] GB Pokémon: Blue Version "warp glitch" by gifvex in 10:12.00?
This is also a question about language obsoletions and branches, I guess. All three can forgo save data corruption and use an invalid script/text index in Viridian Forest to execute a little bit of arbitrary code from stored Pokemon data to help warp to the Hall of Fame. The select glitch for the "dokokashira door" Hall of Fame warp used in 1639M is only in Red & Green (JPN) and Blue (JPN), but is also a warp method, though this movie is within the save glitch branch history. If I am a user who wants to improve the warp glitch or save glitch branch in gen 1 Pokemon, which versions and languages are available?
Other maybe relevant postings:
I went through our Yellow/Red/Blue branches...Fixing all branch labels
For different versions of the same game, or alternate editions of a game, there are many factors in play for deciding if obsoleting a published movie or creating a new branch. The most important ones are movie contents and audience reception.
In my opinion, a Yellow no-save-corruption submission that uses a glitch not available in Red/Blue, should not obsolete the current Blue "warp glitch" publication, but be published as a new branch. However, this is just my opinion, as there would need opinions from more Judges and from the audience. I really can't be sure beforehand about how complex the decision could be.
For what concerns the language versions: using a Japan version of a game is allowed by our rules, but note that the new movie will be accepted only if it features actual gameplay improvements, and not just being faster due to Japanese text being more compact.
In any case, the current Red save glitch publication counts as fastest completion, so it could be obsoleted by a submission with low entertaining; instead, the additional branches require to meet the entertaining standards of the Moons tier.
In that regard, I'm pretty confident that using the Japan version would be a problem for the blank label/no memory corruption branch as, in my opinion, the Japanese language would make that kind of movie unlikely to be enjoyed by non-Japanese people.
For the "warp glitch"/no save corruption branch I'm not sure.
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I've just officially submitted a Yellow NSC TAS which will more directly bring up the problem Gifvex was inquiring about. I believe that the glitches used are sufficiently unique and entertaining to warrant an independent branch.
http://tasvideos.org/6119S.html
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
It's Initial Time in Sync Settings. Set it to whatever you want, just check which one is more optimal now that you know about it. Not mandatory for every Saturn submission, but might be a way to affect some RNG like desmume's firmware settings do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I want to speedrun a pirate game called Mortal Kombat Mythologies Gold 2000 that was developed by chinese. Longplay is here (42 mins).
I don't know which version to use. The version shown above misses a few bosses, enemies and some stage hazards (as longplayer says), so it allows me to complete the game faster. But, there is another version which was fixed by funs and the missing content seems to be presented there. The game's battle system is odd, so, the more enemies I have to kill, the more boring TAS will be.
Which version should I use?
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
It's not clear for me. If we consider this game as a hack of PS1 version that was ported to SNES, it will be rejected because it doesn't suit Moon category, right?
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
How can you get a SNES port by simply hacking a PS1 version?
Original homebrew game is eligible for Vault if it's considered notable. Its hack that makes it less crappy isn't eligible for Vault. If it can't be entertaining enough for Moons, just TAS the original homebrew version. Yet if it's no notable, it will be rejected.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So some PC games have speedrun modes where they basically play an in game timer during your play through, games like Celeste and Fez have this. Is it required in cases like this to TAS the game in this mode or can the authors do this by choice?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
So some PC games have speedrun modes where they basically play an in game timer during your play through, games like Celeste and Fez have this. Is it required in cases like this to TAS the game in this mode or can the authors do this by choice?
What would be an example of a situation where you forego using the provided speedrun mode?
So some PC games have speedrun modes where they basically play an in game timer during your play through, games like Celeste and Fez have this. Is it required in cases like this to TAS the game in this mode or can the authors do this by choice?
What would be an example of a situation where you forego using the provided speedrun mode?
Some people may find the timer to be distracting when watching the run, but it would be a good way for speedrunners to see what the time of the run is in IGT to compare it to RTA.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11492
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If the run aims for in-game time, and it makes more sense to speedrun using the in-game timer rather than real time, such a mode can be used to replace common any%, like it happens in Sonic games. Otherwise, there should be gameplay benefits. I doubt the very fact of seeing a timer will make sense as an entertainment trade-off by itself, without in-game time goal.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
In Final Fantasy VII, you can swap disc during FMV to load the wrong one and shorten it a lot or even skip it. Since you swap between Disc 1, 2 and 3 of the same game, is it allowed to do so ?
For example here are the first 20 minutes with the Disc Swap trick.
It saves around 8860 frames just for this segment.
Link to video
In Final Fantasy VII, you can swap disc during FMV to load the wrong one and shorten it a lot or even skip it. Since you swap between Disc 1, 2 and 3 of the same game, is it allowed to do so ?
It's not allowed to load the discs in the wrong order. See italicized portion below taken from the Movie Rules.
Movie Rules wrote:
The ROM image must be integral
It is not allowed to make use of images that are not intended to belong to the game being TASed. It is considered intended, if it is endorsed by the game or by its publisher (as an add-on, for example).
For games that consist of multiple images that are intended to be used in a specific order, inserting a new image is only allowed when the game explicitly prompts for it, and the intended order must be respected.
There are a lot of games that are usually played single-player, but also have an optional local co-op mode. Co-op play can be significantly slower (for example, if all characters have to reach the end of the level, and they can't take the same fast route because they would collide with each other), or significantly faster (if multiple characters means you produce much more damage-per-second, or if the characters can take turns tanking hits so you can take a lot more cumulative damage through the level without dying, or if the characters can split up and solve puzzles in different parts of the level simultaneously), or anywhere in between.
I just read through the movie rules and guidelines, and didn't see anything about local co-op, especially in regards to vault eligibility.
My first thought is that speed is king, so only the faster of single-player and multi-player is vault-eligible. (And if the game has drop-in/drop-out co-op, you should make full use of that whenever it's faster.)
But I could also see a case that this choice is similar to a difficulty level choice, and the variant that's more "interesting and entertaining" should be chosen. I think that would usually be multi-player (even when it's a little slower), but maybe single-player would be more interesting and entertaining if the game isn't properly balanced for co-op and having the second player trivializes part of the game. (And if you're going for multi-player on "interesting and entertaining" grounds, maybe drop-out shouldn't be allowed?)
And I can also see a case that if co-op and single-player gameplay are sufficiently different, maybe both could be vault-eligible.
And finally, given that a good co-op run is probably much harder to produce than a good single-player run, maybe a single-player run could be accepted to vault even for games where multi-player would be preferred, but the single-player run could later be obsoleted by a faster multi-player run.
So, what do you think? Are the existing rules adequate (under which I'm guessing "speed is king" would win, and only co-op is vault-eligible for games where co-op is faster), or should a new rule about co-op games be added?
I've written the above in general terms, because I believe you prefer to have general rules rather than individual rulings; but I am interested in a particular game.
I've been considering a TAS of LEGO Batman 2 (for Wii). I've played through the game, and watched both the existing single-player speedruns on speedrun.com; but I've never played it co-op (with anybody competent), I can't find a co-op speedrun, and I haven't started actually TASing. So as a total guess, I think that co-op of this game would be 10% to 30% faster, and that drop-in/drop-out would be slightly faster than a pure 2-player run. (Characters in LEGO games that are under AI control tend to move faster, and occasionally teleport to the main character, compared to characters that are player-controlled.) Also, a co-op run would often have a lot more stuff happening on the screen; but I can't be certain whether that would make the co-op version more entertaining, or if it would just end up being too much stuff on screen and be confusing.
So, if I ever do end up starting this TAS, and I want it to be vault-eligible (because I'm worried not many people will find a >2 hour LEGO game entertaining), should it be single-player, or pure co-op, or whatever is fastest (which I expect to be mostly co-op with occasional drop-out/drop-in segments)?
