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Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Went straight to work on Stage 5 after Stage 4. Bubble Barrier Charge Swap and Miniboss Skip would be the core of our savings. Note that it is apparently worth 2 frames to start this stage without completing Stages 2 or 3 first, due to the weapons getting in between flame and bubble. If that's worth a frame rule, then s5 after s4 might be the best route. Then again, I'm not positive on those 2 frames. I'm not fully satisfied with this run, though. Most of it was re-done, with most of one segment copied in from T4 and that's about it. There's still some analysis to make, particularly any parts where some teams had a very fast segment compared to this run, and whether we can preserve just one more hit of our barrier. I kept my Stage 3 and the partial I have on Stage 6 in this file. Got an extra lag on a pause in Stage 3, probably because of an extra weapon the game has to display. The game is sync-friendly in many ways, and I will be relying on that if I need to keep shuffling stages around in my routing, or when I feel like just TASing some stage out of order.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
So I created a casual display script that creates a 40 pixel side bar and sticks info there. ThunderAxe31 countered with this image ( http://imgur.com/urtCJs5 ) and my response is that invincibility information is rather important. Maybe the damage-based invincibility isn't crucial, but people are going to wonder why I'm ignoring so much damage in Stage 7 (Extended Invincibility due to interrupting Laser Charge), and again for the rest of the run after getting bubble (Charge Swap Bubble Barrier), as there's no visual indicator by the game itself that I'm damage immune other than it looks like I'm cheating suddenly. I'm not sure how to rearrange the graphics, other than to use the vertical style for weapons like I did in the script, taking the graphics of the weapon HUD seen during game play. It's apparently 11 pixels wide, so there should be room for 4 at a time in the 80 pixels width. We probably don't need to show the basic weapon bar, and imply it is selected when other weapons aren't. Boss HP and miniboss HP might be useful to include. Player state not as useful. No idea about map even with 80 pixels width. Artists can have their fun trying to come up with a reasonable layout. I have no plans on further tweaking with my script using BizHawk functions. Oh, and I have an improved Stage 5.
Post subject: Please help us saving 1 frame for the frame rule!
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
About the casual display script, my opinion is that casual viewer wouldn't be interested in the most techinical stuff, but that's not the actual problem. I think that the script from FatRatKnight should at least fix the resolution in order to get a perfect 16:9, that is adding 40 to height and 80 to width; the other problem is about plainness: most of the symbols' meaning are hard to grasp. By the way, FRK just uploaded a new movie file and there is only 1 frame to go in level 3 for getting a dialog frame rule. Help is highly appreciated: Movie #40264434188732218
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Skilled player (1333)
Joined: 1/31/2010
Posts: 330
Location: France
I guess you were refering to this link. Some random thoughts I got while watching the level : -From frames 43800 to 44150, sometimes you dashed up to the end of the edge, sometimes you jump before reaching it. Is this a difference between falling on the left side and falling on the right side ? -Before the miniboss checkpoint, you should be able to be 1 pixel ahead if you jump directly instead of redashing for a few frames. Maybe this pixel can save a frame somewhere.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
lapogne36 wrote:
-From frames 43800 to 44150, sometimes you dashed [..], sometimes you jump [...]. Is this a difference [...]?
Right side dashes go directly into falling pretty early when you stop, and so is a few frames faster to begin falling from that position. Left side dashes require more distance before you start falling, putting me in a bad position for turning around, and is slower than jumping. That's the model I have in my head. It may be worth checking each side, just in case.
lapogne36 wrote:
-Before the miniboss checkpoint, you should be able to be 1 pixel ahead if you jump directly instead of redashing [...]
Results. Every pixel is a help. Turns out one is enough to trigger the miniboss a frame earlier. The transition to the down segment after didn't cooperate, which took some experimentation to get right. Everything else went very smoothly, and we've cleared a frame rule. Okay, problem done. Onward to the next stage!
Editor, Experienced player (930)
Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345
At frame 39103, I thought I remembered not needing to land on that ledge and you could just fall through if set up right? Unless it is needed for some item drop management or something.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Took a different route where I didn't land on the ladder platform just above. A different fall cycle prevented me from reaching the ledge in time. Refer to address 1E6C and my Y positions. I get three frames of zero Y speed, and I need four. EDIT: My fall began at frame 38942, any adjustments to it might help, if you can find a good one. I do have a start on Stage 2 now.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
A start-to-finish of Stage 2. I'm expecting at least one revision to happen before I move on. ... Snap, I'm having a hard time working up more thoughts for this post. Just follow the link if you need my notes. Mildly sick, I hate how frequently I seem to get affected. I'll take the time to rest.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
So, saved a fair number of frames in earlier stages. Stage 2 is in limbo for the moment, I've got frames in early stages I need to carry forward. Got a delay between Stages 4 & 5, a total of 8 frames there. Turns out I saved enough frames to clear one 32-frame cycle, and a bit more to spare besides. I sort of was hoping to have it be exactly on the 32-frame cycle. I would like to attach a working Boss Skip to the movie file as well. Not yet successful, but the effort I used is close to non-existent. Worry about clean up later, get the technique in place. Although, may as well pool some thoughts about the bosses in the end stages. We have four working skips. We have four bosses we still need to bust (one skip is on the last one, so Frozen Laser won't save us ammo). That's 220 HP across 44 hits we need to do. Let's take stock of our weaponry: Flame - 5 damage on 2 ammo, or 3 damage on 1. Tends to get used and refilled in stage portions. Whirlwind - 4 damage with 2 hits on 2 ammo. 40 damage available. Dirt - 4 damage on 2 ammo. 20 damage available. I am not considering the meteors, due to heavy lag. Bubble - 3 damage with 2 hits on 1 ammo. 66 potential, but low damage per hit. Missile - 4 damage on 2 ammo, or 6 damage on 3. 22 damage available. The 6 damage hits helps to keep up. Star - -8 ammo for skips. Leave a single 3-damage hit and a single 6-damage hit. Spikeball - 8 damage with 2 hits on 4 ammo. The uncharged shot can hit several times, too, with 4 damage per hit. Hard analyzing this thing, but we need the up-front damage. Laser - Needed to break the lock on doors. 4 damage on 2 ammo, or 10 damage on 4, if we somehow have the ammo. Since we're not doing anything else with Whirlwind, Dirt, Missile, or 3 ammo of our Star, we've got 91/220 damage across 21/44 hits. We're probably opening every combat we don't skip with charged Spikeball, 16 ammo needed, which accounts for another 64 damage across 8 hits. Assuming we don't need to pause after (Charge Swap needs pause to work at all), we can drop to negative ammo with the Spikeball with Charge Storage and leave it there for another 16 damage across 2 hits on the last boss we fight. Hey, all for the sake of avoiding the pause screen for Ammo Tanks!
Post subject: 17 frames saved in stage 3, segment 2
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
17 frames saved in stage 3, segment 2. the movie desyncs after the miniboss due to animation frame rule. Also note that the rest of the movie remained unchanged. In order to achieve this, I simply used the bubble barrier again, just before segment 1 ends. This saved 10 frames. Also, I discovered a new glitch. At 44842, you may notice that Zook does dash on ground right after the Flame Dash is ended, without having to mash the R button, but just keeping it. The game is actually continuing the ground dash started before the Flame Dash. Thanks to a different Y value, Zook managed to stay on ground after the flame dash ended, so he didn't need to jump and the ground dash didn't get broken. This saved 6 more frames. Lastly, 1 frame was saved, probably for the different Y value, near the save platform.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Among the earlier stages, I've finally carried the saved frames all the way forward. Cleared Stage 5 with ThunderAxe31's improvements as well. We have lag to kill. Some decent notes in this upload, but the file of the upload itself is a bit out-dated in just a few minutes. Basically it's about those short ledges, and jumping up them can take advantage of the first dash tap when we jump, because we overlap some zero speed frames between the tap input and the fact we have zero X speed on the frame we jump out of a dash. I feel like the movie is getting pretty packed solid, with very little we can add to it now. Getting the Boss Skip technique added to the movie, where it ends, is still open for anyone wanting to try. Zero further attempts have been made so far since my almost zero effort try.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Added: More barrier in s2. Boss Skip for second re-fight. Stage 2 isn't done yet, but at least it's got better ammo management to avoid a pause for a refill. My next step will be to clear through the end stages and have a start on those. The first re-fight was just a direct copy of Team 3, which will need to change to tweak with ammo I expect to need. Charged spikeball, Flame Charge, charged missile, 3 whirlwinds, and a dirt spike look to be desired. Getting whirlwinds lag-free might be tricky, replacing one with 2x dirt spikes would be the easy solution. Anyway, a bit more progress. Enjoy it.
Editor, Skilled player (1333)
Joined: 1/31/2010
Posts: 330
Location: France
I don't know if you will actually re-fight the S2 boss in the end stages or skip him, but if you must fight him then it's a perfect Meteor target (we managed to get 2 Meteors without any lag). Else I think there might be some other boss where you will be able to use Meteor without lag (it should be ok as long as the boss doesn't do any extra animation). What are the bosses you must fight and the bosses you will skip ?
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Referring to Exonym's post, our list of re-fight skips: 1st - Fail 2nd - Skip 3rd - Fail 4th - Skip - EDIT: savestate-anchored .bk2 5th - Fail 6th - Skip 7th - Skip 8th - Skip EDIT: In case it's important, 1st has us re-fight s1 boss, 2nd has us re-fight s2 boss. Guess what boss the 3rd one has us fight. Yes, the s3 boss. I'll leave the pattern recognition up to you. I recall looking at the first one myself, and determining the enemies are exactly one pixel away from remaining in existence. I am unable to determine a way to tweak this pixel. I have not checked the other fails myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's no getting those to work. Maybe the 4th one can be skipped, I'm not sure. That's the list I am aware of, anyway. Feel free to make tests (probably with a DTC movie for convenience of getting there). EDIT: A small saving at end of Stage 4. Spent the frames saving lag.
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
I'm currently researching about the rapid fire glitch showed off by Team 2, because it may save time in Stage 1. Here are my notes so far, before I forget: This is a memory curruption glitch that allows to fire multiple times with any weapon, and even corrupt memory more. In order to trigger the glitch, you have to hit an enemy with a Laser shot, while he is still in the spawn area and you're moving toward him. This will make the enemy to die and respawn many times in a row; this breaks some game mechanics about weaponry. After this, buttons Start, l, and r will be locked. Firing another Laser shot will unlock them for a short amount of time, after which you'll have to fire another one. Swapping to the regular buster weapon will lock these buttons permanently; in order to avoid this, you have change it again untill a shot from a different weapon is still on screen. Firing a charged Laser will fix the glitch and allow to use the regular buster weapon again withou having more issues. I will edit this post in case I discover more details or have to do corrections.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Masterjun
He/Him
Site Developer, Skilled player (1987)
Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 1185
Location: Germany
Wasn't it that the number of projectiles on screen glitched to a negative number, and since weapon change is only allowed with 0 projectiles on the screen it doesn't work unless you shoot some things to increase the value to 0?
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
Yes, it's exactly that. FatRatKnight decided to call it Shot Counter glitch; here is the latest movie file, which implements it: User movie #40508664587881325 By the way, there are no others levels in which this glitch can be used without wasting the time used for Flame charges. Except, for a possibility... that is using Whirlwind weapon to attack enemies below screen while descending vertical segments. Tomorrow I'll go to camping to a week, so I'll probably have little time for working on Zook. I'm telling you in case you don't feel like waiting for me, bye.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Stage 1 optimized a little further. After the inspirations of the Shot Counter glitch, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try it to see if we can get past a roadblock that slowed us down a few frames. Success! Though, if it's just 4 frames, might be better to just take the old route past those enemies, assuming it doesn't save us the frame rule. We have lag in the way, after all, and removing that are savings that won't be lost to frame rules. Stage 7 could improve, and then we might have 4 frames from that. And if so, we'd save the frame rule on Stage 1, making the laggy path the faster one after all.
Editor, Experienced player (930)
Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345
So looking at stage 2, I noticed at 59566, you release the flame charge. Why not just wait a few more frames and release the flame charge so that you are caught by the ground from the next ledge? Shouldn't this reduce time spent in the air? I didn't do much further analysis but when I tried this, I got a more favorable ammo drop. Not sure if that's necessary, but I believe I was 2 frames faster. I didn't do extensive testing.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Okay, here's the attempt. Honestly, I'm a bit confused as to whether my previous attempt is better or this one. I'm not ready to make a close analysis yet, so I leave it to others to draw conclusions. Releasing the Flame Charge from the air will stop us the instant we come into contact with a floor tile. There are what I call magnet tiles that exist above and below slopes, and these things let us snap to slope tiles. The slope tiles don't stop us, but the instant we reach floor tiles at the end of the slope, we're stuck there until Flame Charge ends. I assumed the wait is worse than doing what I did. I did not, however, check landing on the platform and then Flame Charging. So I did that in the above input file. Despite doing it, I still don't know if it's any good, but at least I manipulated a small ammo out of it. In the meantime, I triggered the Shot Counter glitch in another way. Well, having the laser rapidly hit a respawning enemy is one way, but I glitched the shot counter another way. Charge Swap Bubble Barrier. Run out of barrier while shots are on-screen. Except maybe not that straight-forward, since apparently a prior attempt ran out of barrier without glitching the shot counter, so the set-up isn't entirely known, but the trigger is, at least. Apparently running out of barrier sets the counter to zero, so if there are still any shots on screen, we'll get a negative count in short time. That alternative Shot Counter glitch is on display against the boss of s2.
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Added the end of the run. I wanted to make the skips official and included in the movie. That was just about my goal, with minimal attempts at optimizing other stuff. At least we now have a firm time to end of movie. Finding it harder to maintain the will to look over this game. I don't feel this is clean enough for submission yet. I've got a rather large submission text to look over.
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
Hi there! I understand this game is very though to deal with, I too find very frustrating and energy-depleting to work with it. Just remember there is no need to hurry and doing all the work by yourself. About my idea about using Wind weapon to trigger Shot Counter Glitch, it was a failure. Even though I managed to do the multiple killing, it didn't trigger. Here is a savestate-anchored movie demonstrating it: User movie #40645961964258621 Also, I noticed that charged Laser does last 4 less frames if used while jumping. Edit: maybe it was just due to less lag... This more sprites you let spawn on screen, the more time the attack will last. This is in fact exploited for the Stage 4 miniboss fight.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Editor, Experienced player (930)
Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345
I never thought about it before, but zook himself doesn't count as an enemy, does he? Say if he were to die on the frame a boss was loaded, it doesn't kill the boss. Just out of curiosity, but my thinking is that's probably a big ol NO.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
Post subject: Added a third paragraph. Wait, let me fix that...
Editor, Skilled player (1198)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
The game apparently identifies whether it's Zook, the projectiles, or enemy based on which slots are occupied. The first 10-ish IDs are player related (Zook, HUD, dust from dash or wall jump), the next 20 are projectiles fired by player, and the last 30 are enemies, their projectiles, and their explosions. When the player's hitbox interacts with an enemy, it usually ends badly for Zook. When a player's hitbox intersects a player projectile hitbox, nothing happens. When a player projectile hitbox interacts with an enemy hitbox, bad stuff happens to enemy. I'm pretty sure different functions are at play here, and hitting the player doesn't count as hitting an enemy. EDIT: At the very least, my hitboxes script do pick different hitboxes just because using the same function on ID 29 (a player projectile) doesn't give sensible hitbox for ID 32 (some enemy). So you can see why I'm thinking the way I am. So, short answer: Hitting player won't skip minibosses or bosses any time soon. Not by any reasonable theory I know.
Editor, Reviewer, Skilled player (1353)
Joined: 9/12/2016
Posts: 1646
Location: Italy
So, since the submission text doesn't look like going to stop growing anytime soon, I and FRK decided to look for a simple online tool for letting many people working on it simultaneously. Back during DTC6, I and the other members of Secret Team did use TitanPad for some time, and then passed to Google Drive for more security and more options. Now TitanPad is no longer available, and we need to look for a similar site, preferably one that allows undo and shows who's edited what. Here are some lists: http://alternativeto.net/software/titanpad/ https://www.sitepoint.com/6-online-document-text-editors-reviewed/ http://www.moreofit.com/similar-to/titanpad.com/Top_10_Sites_Like_Titanpad/ Edit: we decided to go with PiratePad. Here is the read-only url: http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/ro.3aWjXmV$Nci/latest Contact us privately to ask for getting access to editing. I highly advise to have cookies enabled on your browser in order to avoid spamming the author list.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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