Post by ThunderAxe31

Posted: 1/11/2017 4:29 AM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

Sorry to bring this up, but how's the run going, zk547? By the way, I've always been planning to do a Metal Slug 3 TAS, but I find it difficult because FBA-rr crashes and desyncs so much, so is there any good way to keep it stable? Also, does anyone here know if there's a way to make FBA-rr skip lag frames automatically? Thanks in advance. :)

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/11/2017 5:33 AM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

Sorry to bring this up, but how's the run going, zk547? By the way, I've always been planning to do a Metal Slug 3 TAS, but I find it difficult because FBA-rr crashes and desyncs so much, so is there any good way to keep it stable? Also, does anyone here know if there's a way to make FBA-rr skip lag frames automatically? Thanks in advance. :)

Hey, I actually haven't worked on this since I last posted my WIP. The emulator and the fact that some parts of the run weren't completely optimized made me lose motivation, unfortunately. As far as I know, there isn't a good way to keep the emulator stable. I've had to re-start/re-download the emulator multiple times before I was able to record stuff. As for the desyncs, I just hope for the best. Sometimes it plays back perfectly without any problems, other times it desyncs. I don't know what causes this to happen. Maybe the most recent version of FBA (0.0.7 I believe?) might be more stable (I used 0.0.5). I don't how to make FBA-rr skip lag frames :( Maybe mtvf1 might know? I wish there could be a more stable emulator for these arcade games.

Posted: 1/11/2017 9:31 AM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

zk547 wrote:

I wish there could be a more stable emulator for these arcade games.

Me too. I really wish someone could improve FBA-rr, which hasn't been updated for a long time. Watching your WIP has really made my day, for which I should thank you. I think your run's definitely good enough, and already extremely hard to improve. I can hardly imagine all the great efforts you've put in this run, due to the difficulty of controlling 2 players simultaneously and heavy luck manipulation. The hardest parts have already been finished. All there's left are mostly just getting 2 shotguns and bomb everything blocking the way. Please don't lose motivation. It would be a great run in the end, even if it's not perfect. Hardly anything's perfect, right? :)

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/11/2017 11:07 AM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

I have no idea about the skip lag. About the desynth, as I know, different computers have the different problems. Anyone should find the way by themself.

Posted: 1/13/2017 3:48 PM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

I made an encode and uploaded on YouTube for anyone who'd like to watch zk547's wonderful WIP (up to rootmars1) online. I also hope the run won't stay like this for long, because it's so close to being finished. Keep up the good work, zk547. :D Link to video

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/16/2017 3:59 PM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

I really hope you can go on doing(from fighting rootmars1), no matter what is perfect for you or not. It's near the end, don't give up, please. I wright this another simple lua hp display, hopefully it can help you. If you complete the movie, I will encode the movie with data display at first time. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36386646557209926

Posted: 1/19/2017 2:38 AM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

Alright, watching the encode made me inspired again to work on this (thanks for the encode HappyLee). I will try to work on this run when I have time. Hopefully I can get it done within a few months.

mtvf1 wrote:

I wright this another simple lua hp display, hopefully it can help you.

Thanks for the lua script, mtvf1.

ThunderAxe31 wrote:

Uhm... Wouldn't be faster to use bombs to kill the UFOs at 18:18?

Probably. I'm not sure why I didn't use them there (it's been more than 2 years since I worked on this). I don't want to go all the way back there and re-do it from that point. That's something I'll leave to the next person who tries to improve my run.

Posted: 1/20/2017 9:24 AM
(Edited: 2/17/2017 10:14 PM)

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

Marco rescued 8306 frames saved in total. Wow. It's amazing how having 80 bombs can speed things up a lot. Against rootmars1, I ended up not trying to manipulate an extra L because I concluded that it wasn't necessary for the next part. There's a small trick against rootmars1 where if you jump at the right time when rootmars is defeated, you'll get pulled to the right side, so you'll leave the screen earlier, which saves some frames. In the next part, I basically bomb everything that's in the way. I only use the metal slug to help fight the giant alien walker. After destroying the walker, it becomes useless as the cannon and vulcan are too slow. The hoop shooting bots have a lot less HP when you engage them without being inside a slug (huge decrease from 1600HP to 750HP). Manipulating the 2 shotguns wasn't too bad, the weapons dropped by the bots are determined by the actions you do right before they appear. When destroying the bubble, I ended up using F along with bombs and S. This because after I throw 2 bombs, I have to wait 8 frames before I can throw 2 more bombs so might as well use F to do some damage on frames where you can't do anything else. The bombs don't hit the bubble instantly when you throw them while crouching, but it's still faster to throw them the way I did. At the end, if you time your jump, you can land on the pathway during Marco's cutscene which results in you leaving the screen earlier and saving some frames. The next part is only serious till the first door. I'm testing some ideas for this part. I think the best and efficient way to destroy the first two doors is to use 2 bombs and 2 S.

Posted: 1/20/2017 3:12 PM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

I'm glad to see you can do it again. In next place, the choice is very important. Get 2F or 1F 1S? F is faster in boss fight, but slower when beating enemies. The marsroot2 is very hard. You must get all G from the red balls. You needn't take the first G at first time, use your F or S first.(I'm not sure 2 players run can get G or not.) Stand on the nose, you can use knife and gun together, Though the knife is a little slower.

Posted: 1/20/2017 3:42 PM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

Awesome WIP, again! I haven't seen such quick rootmars1 fight. Now the hardest parts have already been done. (Edit: except for the final boss fight maybe...) I thought you would use 2 shotguns one for each player, because S is much more efficient than F at the bubble and the doors, and you probably don't need to save much for the boss, for you can get as many bombs, F or G as you want in theory from the orange bubbles. Maybe there's a special reason you choose to use C and F for the other player rather than S? For the next stage, I don't know if the two machines (or what its name) are useful at all. But I'm a little worried that 20 bombs may not be enough to clear the way. I would probably get the I from one of the hoop shooting bots and use few bombs against them (because close shots of I are powerful enough), and get one S for each player, destroy the tank probably, and skip the C. That's probably just my theory, because I haven't done any tests.

mtvf1 wrote:

Stand on the nose, you can use knife and gun together, Though the knife is a little slower.

I've tested that and you're right. The trick does add great difficulty to luck manipulation, though. I'm not sure if G is the best option, because G can be used up pretty fast on the nose, and it takes at least 2 rounds of orange balls for one player to get a weapon. Maybe F is better because it takes a lot longer time to be used up, and the player can manipulate to get 10 bombs while firing F?

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/20/2017 8:31 PM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

HappyLee wrote:

I thought you would use 2 shotguns one for each player, because S is much more efficient than F at the bubble and the doors, and you probably don't need to save much for the boss, for you can get as many bombs, F or G as you want in theory from the orange bubbles. Maybe there's a special reason you choose to use C and F for the other player rather than S?

I gave both S to one player with the plan of taking 2 F to rootmars2 after mtvf1 mentioned it was possible to do so. I figured I wouldn't lose too much time from having only one player use S.

mtvf1 wrote:

In next place, the choice is very important. Get 2F or 1F 1S? F is faster in boss fight, but slower when beating enemies.

I'm still planning getting 2 F for rootmars. I think it should also be better for fighting the hoop shooting bots?

HappyLee wrote:

For the next stage, I don't know if the two machines (or what its name) are useful at all. But I'm a little worried that 20 bombs may not be enough to clear the way.

I think the slug noid (first slug) can be useful for destroying the 3rd door. I think there's a way to throw it such that it destroys all three bubbles. The cannons from the Rebel slug (second slug) might also be useful for fighting the hoop shooting bots. If it turns out to be slow, then at a minimum, the bots can still be destroyed with 4 shots of F and a couple bombs so I think 20 bombs should be fine.

HappyLee wrote:

I've tested that and you're right. The trick does add great difficulty to luck manipulation, though.

Do you know much faster this was compared to using just the knife? Depending on how much faster this is than using just knife, this might help with the decision of whether to give all the S to one player or not in the previous part because if I give S to both players, I can only take 1 F to rootmars2. G is the best option for rootmars 2 if it's faster than using F + knife. If not, then bombs are better. Is there a pattern to how often the red balls appear? It seems that they appear less frequently than using just 1 player. And I don't think there should be any change to the items you can get from them for 2 players so getting G should be possible. Edit: the Rebel Slug cannons only do 100 damage (same as bomb) so i think it'll be useless.

Posted: 1/21/2017 4:13 AM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

Standing on the nose is indeed faster only because it provides extra damage from F, S or G, so each shot should save the time hitting the same damage with knives. (I'm not good at calculation, but I would assume about 20 frames can be saved from each shot? Not too much, isn't it?) G should be the fastest for the firing speed and damage, but not necessarily the best, because 20 G shots can be used up pretty fast, and once it's used up, you have to wait for about 1 round of red ball to get another G for a certain player. There can be only 1 red ball for each round. While standing on the nose, F cannot do great damage I think. So the problem is how to use F properly. I think maybe F should be used on the left side of the brain, since it can get the greatest damage? I would say, the idea of getting S for both players for the bubble and doors, and getting F + S for rootmars2 is worth a shot, considering the fact that F may not be so useful on the nose. So what is the best option from the bubble? It could be all G, it could be F + bombs, and it could be S + bombs. I don't know. Testing is needed. Edit: Also it could be S or F for one player, and all G for another, because G is much more efficient than 10 bombs. I've also found that G can be shot much faster during the jump pressing down (four G shots can be fired in one jump), so G is probably more useful on the brain during jumping (which is required for ducking the "brain wave") than on the nose.

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/21/2017 7:37 AM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

I tested some stuff against rootmars2 and here's what I found so far: 1. Using knife on the nose is noticeably slower because you can only attack in one direction (towards the right) and you can't stay crouched the whole time. The best way I found to use knife on the nose was the following (each action takes 2 frames) knife (while crouching) -> wait -> stop crouching and press left -> press right -> use knife again (while crouching). When I try to attack again after turning to the left while crouching (to cancel the knife animation), the player ends up trying to use the gun instead of the knife. 2. Using F is definitely better than S. Even when firing from the nose, F can still do about 280 damage (vs 200 from S). You can also use F faster than S (30 frames between each shot of F vs 38 frames between each shot of S). The big F doesn't do extra damage to rootmars2. 3. After some quick calculations, I'm finding that G is faster than F even though I only get 20 shots and have to use only knife till the next red ball. The main difference is in the speed you can use knife. For F, I have to continuously use the slower version of knife attacks (I was able to get in three knife attacks between each shot of F), but for G, I can jump onto the brain and start using faster knife before I get another G. I think taking the 2 F to rootmars2 is best. F+knife does so much more damage to rootmars2 than S+knife that I think it's worth taking both F's. By the time the first red ball shows up, I think I'll have used up all of the big F so I can start getting G right away for player 1 while player 2 continues to use F. The problem is figuring out the best way to destroy the hoop shooting bots before rootmars2 and how to avoid the D that the second one drops. And of course, manipulating rootmars2 to cooperate.

Posted: 1/21/2017 11:16 AM
(Edited: 1/21/2017 12:51 PM)

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

zk547 wrote:

After some quick calculations, I'm finding that G is faster than F even though I only get 20 shots and have to use only knife till the next red ball. The main difference is in the speed you can use knife. For F, I have to continuously use the slower version of knife attacks (I was able to get in three knife attacks between each shot of F), but for G, I can jump onto the brain and start using faster knife before I get another G.

Nice result. Have you thought of the idea of getting F for one player and getting all G for another? That way the waiting time can be reduced a lot. The player who gets G can stand on the brain and fire G during jumping (4 shots per jump, really fast). It also helps to manipulate luck better.

The problem is figuring out the best way to destroy the hoop shooting bots before rootmars2 and how to avoid the D that the second one drops.

Using 2 F + all the bombs, I guess. I managed to jump over that D twice without frame advance, so I don't think it would be a problem during TASing.

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/21/2017 12:41 PM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

zk547 wrote:

I tested some stuff against rootmars2 and here's what I found so far: 1. Using knife on the nose is noticeably slower because you can only attack in one direction (towards the right) and you can't stay crouched the whole time. The best way I found to use knife on the nose was the following (each action takes 2 frames) knife (while crouching) -> wait -> stop crouching and press left -> press right -> use knife again (while crouching). When I try to attack again after turning to the left while crouching (to cancel the knife animation), the player ends up trying to use the gun instead of the knife. 3. After some quick calculations, I'm finding that G is faster than F even though I only get 20 shots and have to use only knife till the next red ball. The main difference is in the speed you can use knife. For F, I have to continuously use the slower version of knife attacks (I was able to get in three knife attacks between each shot of F)

I think it's 4 times knife between F. ↙ ↘A null every 6 frames one attack. 20 G can make 3000 dmg. So I think G + knife is faster than F + knife + bombs. AND you don't need to use all G in one turn, sometime you have to jump to avoid ring.

Posted: 1/23/2017 8:57 AM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

HappyLee wrote:

Have you thought of the idea of getting F for one player and getting all G for another? That way the waiting time can be reduced a lot. The player who gets G can stand on the brain and fire G during jumping (4 shots per jump, really fast).

Interesting idea. I only considered the damage output between each red ball attack (where G does more dmg than F), but F will be able last through 2~3 red ball cycles so it might be worth getting F the first time for one player and then getting G afterwards for the other player. I think 1 F from the red ball should be enough for the whole fight if I do this. It would depend on whether F can make up the damage output initially lost from not getting G from the first red ball in subsequent red ball cycles. G can be fired even faster on the nose by using turn-around cancel (1 shot every 4 frames). So all 20 shots of G can be used up well before the next red ball shows up.

Posted: 1/23/2017 1:53 PM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

Marsroot's ring, 1 fire in less 6 seconds. But you only have 4.5 seconds to crouch So in 1 ring's turn, 1 person, damage could be: 11F + 9*4Knife = 4160 (4K in every 1F) 11F + 7*4K + 10B = 4920 20G + 15*4K = 4800 15*4.5K = 2025 10B + (15*3.5+10)K = 2875 (1K 1B in every 6frames) 8S + 7*(5or6)K = 2700~2800 Before the 5th ring, you can complete the game， and the 2F is not enough. How to use these 4 items? The last one must be G. 1F & 3G or 2F &2G？ Maybe 1P should take all bombs, and use them when empty the F. Don't forget F can make too large lag, maybe you can't use 11F between rings. I know there are some safe place that you can avoid the ring without jump.

Posted: 1/23/2017 5:17 PM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

mtvf1 wrote:

I know there are some safe place that you can avoid the ring without jump.

I know a safe place, too, but is there one near the nose that won't cost much time walking? If not, the player holding G is going to jump anyway, so it might be faster for that player to jump on the brain so he can shoot probably also 1 shot every 4 frames during jumping (and fire the rest of G using turn-around cancel by the side of the brain)? In this way, the jumping or walking time could be saved by shooting G, and the player holding G can have a greater knife speed on the brain.

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/23/2017 6:47 PM

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

HappyLee wrote:

I know a safe place, too, but is there one near the nose that won't cost much time walking?

Yep. There's one right to the left of the nose on the left stitch. It shouldn't cost too much time to walk over there and back. This will be useful for mainly using F because the player with F will not be jumping onto the brain. It's definitely worth jumping onto the brain to use faster knife when G is not being used and leave a few shots of G to use during the jumping and walking phases. It should be tested to see how fast G can be fired downwards while jumping. I know it's fast, but I feel like it's slightly slower than turn-around canceled G.

Posted: 1/24/2017 6:39 AM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

Yeah the safe place on the left stitch takes a bit walking distance. It might be good enough for the player with F, but not enough for the player with G. Firing G downwards while jumping is indeed slightly slower (about 6 frames per shot) than turn-around canceled G, but I managed to fire 5 G shots in one jump (maybe 6 is possible?), so it's fast enough. Here's what I think the player with G should do: jump and shoot G 5 times downwards -> land on the left side of the brain -> turn-around canceled G (but save some for the next jump) -> walk a few steps to the brain -> fast knives -> jump and repeat. This should also help manipulate luck a lot, because you can alter the time and the movement of the jump freely to get the red ball in place, unlike the player with F's movement, which is pretty much restrained.

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/26/2017 11:00 AM
(Edited: 1/26/2017 6:45 PM)

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

up to rootmars2 First attempt at doing the last part before rootmars 2. 9158 frames saved in total. The first two doors are best destroyed with 2 bombs and 2 shotguns (it's annoying how everything has 240 hp so a single S shot can't take them out). So I'm forced to use S+knife for taking care of some of the zombies. At the part where I get the 2nd F, if you delay scrolling the screen and kill the extra clone, you can get extra bombs. This ended up only costing about 15 frames, so it's totally worth getting. At the 3rd door, if you lure a clone near it and throw the slug noid close enough to the door while overlapping the clone, you can destroy all three bubbles(?) of the door. When I didn't get the extra bombs, the clone spawned and came to the door at the right time, but when I did get the bombs, the clone comes too late for this trick to be useful. Maybe this is because the timings were thrown off when I delayed the screen scrolling to get the extra bombs. Changing the time of when I killed the previous clones didn't affect how soon they spawned. So I decided to use a single cannon and 2 bombs to destroy the top bubble and then just threw it at the earliest frame possible to destroy the bottom two bubbles. I tried my best to make the hoop shooting bots optimized. F is really not suited to fighting them, but I don't think using only bombs is correct. Using the rebel slug cannons for the first two bots ended up only being about 10 frames slower, but saved me some bombs so I decided to use it. At the end, I tried testing using F+knife on rootmars2. The one in the WIP is the best version I've been able to find. I can't seem to hold down all the time, the player will not use the knife when I try to keep holding down. The input I use for knife is: |↓A|null|←|→| repeat Faster F glitch? I found a glitch that allows you to fire F faster. (The glitch occurs at the beginning of the mothership part where you get 2 F). If you get a new F right after you finish using up all of another F, you can fire 2 shots of F within a few frames. It seems that if all you do is fire F, then you can fire the second shot just 2 frames after the first shot. For some reason, if you crouch, throw a bomb, or try to use turn around cancel, the rate you can fire F becomes slightly slower (have to wait about 4~6 frames), but it goes back to being just 2 frames after some time. This does not work when you try to go from big F to normal F (tested this in the last part before rootmars2). I think this will be really useful for rootmars2 and might even make it better to get F instead of G from the redballs.

Posted: 1/26/2017 2:41 PM

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mtvf1

Skilled player (1178)

Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China

zk547 wrote:

At the end, I tried testing using F+knife on rootmars2. The one in the WIP is the best version I've been able to find. I can't seem to hold down all the time, the player will not use the knife when I try to keep holding down. The input I use for knife is: |↓A|null|←|→| repeat

Too bad, I think the reason is hitbox.

zk547 wrote:

I found a glitch that allows you to fire F faster. (The glitch occurs at the beginning of the mothership part where you get 2 F). If you get a new F right after you finish using up all of another F, you can 2 shots of F within a few frames. It seems that if all you do is fire F, then you can fire the second shot just 2 frames after the first shot. For some reason, if you crouch, throw a bomb, or try to use turn around cancel, the rate you can fire F becomes slightly slower (have to wait about 4~6 frames), but it goes back to being just 2 frames after some time. This does not work when you try to go from big F to normal F (tested this in the last part before rootmars2). I think this will be really useful for rootmars2 and might even make it better to get F instead of G from the redballs.

Very nice find! If the time is possible, you can still got the G from the last red ball. after get the F, you needn't stand on the nose, and find the powerful place of using F.

Posted: 1/26/2017 3:48 PM

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HappyLee

Expert player (2574)

Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831

Great WIP and great finding! It does complicate the final boss fight quite a bit, but I'm sure whatever you do, this will turn out to be a fantastic run. Wish you luck. :) Edit: The Cammon's damage to the brain is greater than a knife, and it only costs 2 frames before jumping out of the tank. Is it useful? I wonder why it hasn't been used before.

Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).

Posted: 1/27/2017 4:25 AM
(Edited: 1/30/2017 8:02 AM)

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zk547

Active player (397)

Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 133

HappyLee wrote:

Edit: The Cammon's damage to the brain is greater than a knife, and it only costs 2 frames before jumping out of the tank. Is it useful? I wonder why it hasn't been used before.

Tested this. For player 1, I get out of the 2 frames later than the earliest time, but for player 2, I get out 5 frames (should be 4, but got a lag frame) because when I try to shoot a cannon on the earliest frame, it doesn't land on rootmars2, but drops immediately for some reason. Even so, since the cannon does 50 damage to rootmars2 (more than knife), I think it's worth it. Maybe X2poet thought the damage done by the cannon wasn't worth it.

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