how does everyone feel about 100% Glitched as a category?
I've been curious about this for a while myself. What are all of the major glitches which are forgone in the non-"game end glitch" categories, and how could they be used to save time in a 100% run?
how does everyone feel about 100% Glitched as a category?
I've been curious about this for a while myself. What are all of the major glitches which are forgone in the non-"game end glitch" categories, and how could they be used to save time in a 100% run?
I think that primarily the Space/Time beam could be used, once obtained, to very quickly traverse most rooms (like this), and trigger the escape sequence without entering Tourian after collecting the last item. There's probably some other stuff too but that seems like the major one.
Yeah I'd think that even a "no holds barred" 100% TAS would actually have to collect every separate item (and no item twice, not that you would anyway) to be considered legitimate for publication. Though again, I'd prefer one to not use Space/Time (or GT code of course) at all.
Agreed, figured I'd bring it up though, since it exists.
I have to also agree though that I don't particularly find 100% Glitched to be all that interesting. I too would much prefer to see a further optimized NMG 100% instead. There may be better goals to showcase glitched mechanics.
Isn't there a low% all bosses category on deertier that allows oob and stuff but still goes through the majority of the game? I remember that run being interesting to watch.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 11/26/2010
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Taco will finish especially if this discussion keeps going in the right direction. First off its great to see more people joining the conversation great to see you guys!!!
Well Total brought this up on discord and said instead of 100% what about True RBO Glitched? That sounds amazing IMO!!!
Now I don't mean to stir the pot again how does everyone feel about 100% Glitched as a category?
Bit late, but yeah I agree if a new 100% TAS were to be made it should avoid stuff like the S/T beam and the GT code, and instead incorporate all non memory corruption techniques or cheats, like the old one.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
Here's my take on this debate.
TASVideos, first and foremost, is a repository of tool-assisted speedruns. We have The Vault™ for any% and 100% runs that are speed records, but not particularly entertaining; we have the Moon Tier™ for most everything else, including esoteric goals; and we have the Star Tier™ for the elite of the elite.
As far as Super Metroid getting preferential treatment in terms of categories allowed, I do agree that it has happened. I never minded, but I've loved SM since I first played it around '95, so I'm biased.
Samsara has had harsh words, no denying that, but I acknowledge that sometimes being blunt is the best way to get your point across.
Something I have said repeatedly with regard to branches and routing is that if a given route or branch provides a distinct viewing experience from other routes/branches, it is worth publishing. I have to admit, though, that my tolerance in this respect is strained by the idea of 4 or 5 13% Super Metroid runs.
My view is not as harsh as Samsara's; what I would personally like to see is the fastest 13% routed to avoid underflow, and any% routed to exploit it.
Also, I'm fairly sure it should be called "underflow," as the numbers go below 0 and jump to a very high number, similar to horizontal zipping off the left edge of the screen and appearing on the far right of the level in the Sonic games, which has always been called "horizontal underflow." "Overflow" would be when the number goes too high and drops to 0 or goes negative, such as when you kill the Lavos Core with an Elixir as in [1285] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by inichi in 21:23.98.
EDIT: Something else I will say is that the underflow glitch bores me personally, but I'm very familiar with Super Metroid; it would most likely elicit a much better response from a casual viewer.
Also, I'm fairly sure it should be called "underflow," as the numbers go below 0 and jump to a very high number, similar to horizontal zipping off the left edge of the screen and appearing on the far right of the level in the Sonic games, which has always been called "horizontal underflow." "Overflow" would be when the number goes too high and drops to 0 or goes negative, such as when you kill the Lavos Core with an Elixir as in [1285] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by inichi in 21:23.98.
It shouldn't. Underflow means arithmetic overflow, which describes a phenomenon with floating-point values
Integer overflow is both ways. Think of it as carrying from a bit outside the number. I.e. when subtracting 1 from 0 in a 16-bit int, the 0 is treated as 65536, or 0x10000. So it makes sense that you would get 65535 (0xFFFF), the maximum value a 16-bit int can hold, out of the operation
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On-topic, though, I don't see how missile overflow can be considered a major glitch. It can be considered memory corruption if you really stretch the definition, but it doesn't corrupt arbitrary addresses; it only corrupts one. And it doesn't skip a huge part of the game, either. In fact it skips nothing, since you still have to fight Ridley and Mother Brain. So it really boils down to just entertainment, and if missile overflow is not entertaining then it won't be accepted because the Vault doesn't take low%.
Here's my thing with the ammo under/overflow glitch: It makes the rest of the game trivial. If your ammo is an arbitrarily large number with no chance of depleting it, then you use that ammo for the rest of the game for all possible purposes. To me, that's boring. It also removes a large chunk of luck manipulation and ammo management, which to me is also boring.
Having a ton of ammo goes against why many viewers would watch low% in the first place. A lot of people watch low% with the expectation of the use of less equipment, not the use of more ammo that is traditionally obtained through item collection. If I were a casual viewer, I'd feel a little cheated by seeing such an underflow glitch used in a low%.
I have no comment about using it in other categories however.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Having a ton of ammo goes against why many viewers would watch low% in the first place. A lot of people watch low% with the expectation of the use of less equipment, not the use of more ammo that is traditionally obtained through item collection. If I were a casual viewer, I'd feel a little cheated by seeing such an underflow glitch used in a low%.
I have no comment about using it in other categories however.
Idk about you, but w/o knowing about missile overflow my first reaction would be "wtf how does Samus have so many missiles!?" rather than "lame, no true low% run has thousands of missiles." The awe factor is more important to the average viewer than the meticulous routing, and pumping Ridley and MB full of super missiles certainly has awe. And if we absolutely need a run in which Samus gets by by the skin of her teeth, then we already have RBO anyway.
Either way, it's neither here nor there. What is entertaining and what is not will be judged when such a run is submitted, and if missile overflow does not result in an entertaining run it will not be published.
Having a ton of ammo goes against why many viewers would watch low% in the first place. A lot of people watch low% with the expectation of the use of less equipment, not the use of more ammo that is traditionally obtained through item collection. If I were a casual viewer, I'd feel a little cheated by seeing such an underflow glitch used in a low%.
I have no comment about using it in other categories however.
Idk about you, but w/o knowing about missile overflow my first reaction would be "wtf how does Samus have so many missiles!?" rather than "lame, no true low% run has thousands of missiles." The awe factor is more important to the average viewer than the meticulous routing, and pumping Ridley and MB full of super missiles certainly has awe. And if we absolutely need a run in which Samus gets by by the skin of her teeth, then we already have RBO anyway.
Either way, it's neither here nor there. What is entertaining and what is not will be judged when such a run is submitted, and if missile overflow does not result in an entertaining run it will not be published.
You misunderstand me. I do not doubt that it has wow factor on it's own. I don't dislike such glitches in general. I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
I know I personally was disappointed when I saw the Metroid NES low% TAS get a bunch of missiles from defeating an additional boss over any%. Additionally I've repeatedly seen questions regarding Metroid Prime 2 low% about how it does item loss skip to keep some items (in which case they don't count towards percent) rather than losing them and having to recollect them (in which they do count). With MP2 though, you end up having less items total with item loss anyways and all the items kept through that skip would have to be obtained in a category in a low% w/o the skip, but some people remain skeptical anyways.
Now of course there is the argument that it could be determined if such a run was submitted. Problem is that this sort of implies that they would need to do a TAS with the underflow first AND then do a TAS without. It seems pretty clear that they would much rather do a TAS without (or two TASes, but noone wants just the TAS with overflow), especially if they think a TAS with would not be received well. It just seems like it would be a waste of time to make them go through the entire process for that.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
You misunderstand me. I do not doubt that it has wow factor on it's own. I don't dislike such glitches in general. I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
low% is quite possibly the only category in which missile overflow can be showed off, as it is questionable if it saves time in any%.
TheMG2 wrote:
It seems pretty clear that they would much rather do a TAS without (or two TASes, but noone wants just the TAS with overflow), especially if they think a TAS with would not be received well.
Uh, that's not true. I personally would much rather see a TAS with overflow than a TAS with a very prolonged Ridley fight
I thought it was clear by the surrounding context that I meant "none of the current Super Metroid TASers" when I said "noone" but I guess it wasn't.
If the glitch doesn't save time in any%, then you just simply don't have a run with that glitch. There are plenty of interesting glitches that don't find ways into TASes.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
If the glitch doesn't save time in any%, then you just simply don't have a run with that glitch. There are plenty of interesting glitches that don't find ways into TASes.
That's... not the point.
TheMG2 wrote:
I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
This is very subjective reason to not use missile overflow. If low%'s definition can be twisted to accommodate for not using overflow, then certainly any% can be twisted to use it. It just doesn't make sense
And those interesting glitches don't get used because they don't save time. If this glitch doesn't save time, of course you shouldn't use it, but if it does then there have to be very good reasons not to, ex. it skips a large portion of the game
EDIT: Oh, also, lots of interesting routes don't get used either. Just because a Charge-Speed route could be more interesting, doesn't mean it has to be used
You misunderstand me. I do not doubt that it has wow factor on it's own. I don't dislike such glitches in general. I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
Really? Because low% seems like the place where it would have the most impact.
The two sides of this war are the people I most associate with the Super Metroid community shouting, "OMG it breakz teh gaem in teh worst way possible!!! Resource management is the most important part of Super Metroid speedruns!!! Nobody will want to watch this!!!" and the people I associate with viewers saying, "Actually, it's pretty cool, it doesn't appear to waste any time, and it's the sort of thing that a god player would do because it removes having to have monitor RNG for ammo drops, potentially leading to a crisper destroyed-game experience."
There are people likening it to ACE (it's not) and people calling it a major glitch (but still using the term underflow, which is such a minor change it doesn't even affect the register the information is stored in), and I honestly think that what these people are most afraid of is change. Change from the developed route because using this glitch means that different choices could potentially be made. Change from the existing speedruns because suddenly super missiles are plentiful. Change because having such a powerful weapon available all of the time (well, ~65535 times) is going to demolish existing records.
But demolishing records is what this site is about. Demolishing records is what makes one run sufficiently different from another and worth watching. Demolishing records is far more interesting than beating the record by a frame or two, because there's a huge change because of some find or another.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I see this issue in a very similar light, Invariel. To a casual viewer, ammo underflow will be impressive because it removes the runners' need to manipulate ammo drops, and it speeds up the rest of the game because you can just spam Supers. But to a TASer, it's probably going to be boring to them for the exact same reasons. So it comes down to whether we want to cater more to the community, or the Internet/public as a whole.
When it comes to TAS production, I'm a dilettante at best, but I've watched enough that I can usually tell when a TAS is making the RNG work in its favor. I love being able to spot it, and for me it's one of the biggest draws toward watching low% runs of any given game. Take that away, and those movies bore me.
Will people please stop misconstruing my posts to mean something that they don't, or only responding to parts of my posts.
I am not of the Super Metroid community. There isn't a "war" and if there is, it doesn't have to be one.
Not all viewers are of the "Ooh a new glitch yay!" opinion. Some of them have tastes more similar to that of the Super Metroid community.
My personal opinion is that while the glitch by itself is interesting, it feels like it would ultimately just make the runs more similar to that of branches where you have lots of items, like 100%.
In a post I made that got completely ignored, I alluded to a third option entirely: low% all bosses. Low% all bosses basically allows for oob while still going through a good portion of the game. It ends with 12% instead of the 13% that the other proposed branches would obtain. This category has a page on deertier, but only one runner. This is actually the only Super Metroid category I really like to watch. It would be a fairly unique spin on the game that would show off some of the more broken aspects of Super Metroid in an interesting way in my opinion and would be a very different run from what is on the site.
However, in the end people will TAS what they want. I understand and support having less Super Metroid TASes on the site. However, they won't make a TAS that they won't like. If they don't want to make just a 13% TAS with underflow and that's their only option for publication, then you may simply be stuck with the two 14% runs that you have currently.
Now please stop misconstruing my posts to make it seem like I hate change. I just wouldn't like that change.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
The two sides of this war are the people I most associate with the Super Metroid community shouting, "OMG it breakz teh gaem in teh worst way possible!!! Resource management is the most important part of Super Metroid speedruns!!! Nobody will want to watch this!!!"
Well, that aside you certainly have a point. The overflow glitch is not nearly as severe as ACE, it wouldn't completely ruin the run and it would offer something new we haven't seen in other runs. To most it would probably also seem like a fine glitch to use, although I'm sure some would feel like it's a bit of a cheat for a run that labels itself low%. And I wouldn't be inherently opposed to such a run if it was made and submitted, even though I'd prefer the alternative.
Cpadolf, I will certainly admit to a large amount of frustration while writing that particular point; thank you for reading past it to the point of the message.
I can definitely see the entertainment value behind 13% without using overflow, and I am certainly not opposed to people making those runs. My preference to seeing overflow used comes from the obvious speed advantage, and this site showcasing speedruns, which suggest using the fastest known techniques.
I fully understand that some people consider this a cheat for low%, but I contend that in any other game's community, this would be a major find with incredible speed implications, and there wouldn't be any contention whatsoever, because managing ammunition isn't the most important part of the game, even though it is a large part of low%'s routing.
It's a difference of opinion, absolutely, but I am interested in what the underlying cause of dissention is, beyond the ammo management argument.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I don't understand the exact situation or what has happened to the game as of late. Can someone give me the cliff notes, please?
As far as low% is concerned, 13% now has 5 separate routes rather than 1, due to the discovery of an ammo overflow at Draygon. The 4 new routes get an extra PB tank in order to use a Crystal Flash in the Draygon fight, plus one of either Speedbooster, Ice, XRay, or a third PB tank. It's been proposed that two low% TASes be published, one being the fastest route w/overflow and the other being the overflow-less Charge-Speed, but it has been controversial, as the last few pages can attest to
I don't understand the exact situation or what has happened to the game as of late. Can someone give me the cliff notes, please?
As far as low% is concerned, 13% now has 5 separate routes rather than 1, due to the discovery of an ammo overflow at Draygon. The 4 new routes get an extra PB tank in order to use a Crystal Flash in the Draygon fight, plus one of either Speedbooster, Ice, XRay, or a third PB tank. It's been proposed that two low% TASes be published, one being the fastest route w/overflow and the other being the overflow-less Charge-Speed, but it has been controversial, as the last few pages can attest to
Actually most people don't seem to care for both now and are simply asking for one or the other.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
