This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4720: nymx & EternisedDragon's SNES Super Metroid "100% Map Completion" in 1:14:51.54

Awesome job man! Loved the run, you obviously put a lot of work into it :)

This is the first known calaboration between a TASer and community.

What an accomplishment! I can't think of a single other TAS that garners help from the community, except for maybe almost literally all of them published on this site.

Great job, Nymx! Really great to see it all come together

Vouch this run. Yeah all TAS have had input from their respective communities there Samsara, but this is the first one done live on twitch with people in chat tossing ideas around throughout the whole project. Great accomplishment. Mantoon makes commentary that much better. Cheers Nymx.

I'm pretty iffy on the merits of the goal choice. What actualy gameplay or tricks does this show that's not in the other already published runs? If it's just "zips past rooms not in other routes," I don't see that as worth it. Also

There are many things that need to be corrected and should remove about 1 minutes and 30 seconds worth of time.

For a game like Super Metroid which has been taken apart and back again, that seems like quite a bit.

I find it interesting that the first 11908 frames of this movie (4.4114160393574773279592199632505% or 03:18.14) are an exact copy of cpadolf's 100% run, from a three frame arm pump to ... well ... everything. Sure, some of it is starting the game and reading through intro text, but everyone puts their own spin on the Ceres section and yet this is identical. Curious.

EDIT: ^^^^ Ohohoho, nice catch. That definitely needs to be explained. I can't wait to see twenty more people sign up to do nothing but vouch for this run and then never post again. People have TASed live on Twitch before and incorporated the community's ideas into the run. Don't treat this run like it's such a novel concept, because it really isn't. Personally? I think the goal choice is arbitrary. These kinds of runs have been rejected before. Barring that fact, we already have about 4500 published runs for Super Metroid, what does this one bring to the table? Does it add anything significant over the 100% run, or is it just the same thing but without item collection and more detours of nothing but running through hallways? If there are 90 seconds of known improvements and an updated submission is being made, why even submit this one? I completely understand if someone spends a long time working on a TAS, gets burnt out, and ends up finding improvements later on but doesn't have the motivation to incorporate them into a new run, but that clearly isn't the case. 90 seconds is pretty significant, even for a longer run like this, not to mention there will likely be further optimizations found on a second pass. Unless it's going to take the better part of a year, it would've probably been better off to have waited for the improved version. If community "calaboration" is so important, why wasn't this community involved in any way? I find it incredibly sketchy that nothing about this run was mentioned here until this submission. It would've been easy to, say, put this run up as a Userfile on the site and post it in the Super Metroid thread for people to comment on. So why didn't that happen? I'm all for collaboration, believe me, but is it really even collaboration if you're not reaching out to a community that knows what they're doing? Most importantly, why am I asking all these questions when I know I'm not going to get proper answers in return, let alone anything that isn't an insult or someone telling me I'm wrong?

s.

From the talking head commentary, timestamp ~16:30 - 16:41, "... this is an exact replica of what Saturn, cpadolf, NameSpoofer, Taco, Kriole, they do, with slight modifications to make it look a lil' more ... flashy". Aaand yet none of these names are in the submission text. "5% of it was taken from an existing strip by cpadolf's 100% item collection."

I feel like there's a lack of informative description in the submission text. Literally the only text that's useful in any way about run content is just the list of shinesparks done, which is...not the most meaningful kind of list, really. In particular for a run like this, what does the route look like? You say it's dramatically different from the RTA WR, how does the route go compared to that? These are the first kind of questions I'd ask with a run like this, and they're not really being adequately answered. I'd also like to see a room-by-room or area-by-area description of the kind of tricks you've been using (other than shinesparks). You talk about non-human, frame perfect, pixel perfect, and speed perfect tricks but again don't elaborate. What kind of tricks were used, were any new tricks used or old tricks used with interesting new applications? This is Super Metroid, I'm sure there is plenty of all this to write about. I'd like to be able to read about this without having to slog through a five hour long audio/floating head commentary. EDIT: Invariel's posts also raise an interesting issue: how much input did you copy from existing runs (by cpadolf, and possibly Saturn, NameSpoofer, Taco or Kriole as well), and why were they (especially cpadolf) not credited or coauthored in the submission?

You said in the submission that it "beats the game in a non-glitched run". Could you define exactly which glitches did you ban in this TAS?

Now that I have watched the entire movie, I can say the following: * There is input that has been clearly borrowed from other authors. I don't know if it was with or without permission, but those authors are not credited in the submission text, or as co-authors. * There were definitely some interesting parts to this, most notably the Crocomire fight, Kraid fight, and Mother Brain fight. * There was a lot that seemed unpolished: in some rooms, you rush in and turn around after the first step, in others you rush in for several steps, then get the idea to turn around. If you're going for super-human speed, any room you visit without needing to pass through should be of the 'and immediately turn around' variety. * There are a lot of places where you could use TAS acceleration to generate shinespark speed even for short dashes. Most notably, traversing right through the energy refill room in Norfair, the straightaway after could be shinesparked through. * The last bit of cleanup was actually a nice surprise, and added a bit of flair. I would have preferred to see a 100% map run that went out of bounds, to properly demonstrate superplay, and while it would have taken a bit more time, I would have also liked to see the skipped items be revealed (or even collected) to show that you, as a super player, know what you are skipping. For me, 100% map completion in this game, like any 100% not-tracked-stat for any game, seems incredibly arbitrary as a goal, because the only way to confirm that it's been done is with an overlay of the entire map and every possible room being checked off. It works for the IgaVania games because they print map completion, and confirmation is easy. Similarly, 100% item completion is easy to confirm in this game because it's right there before the end credits. Did this movie entertain me? Once or twice, briefly. Did I find it entertaining? Overall, no. Some small parts of the movie were interesting, the vast majority (90-95%) was not. Finally, the submission text says that you could save "about 1 minutes[sic] and 30 seconds worth of time" from optimizing your techniques and routing problems. It would probably be a good idea to do that work and then resubmit. There is some good stuff in this movie. There's also a lot that is sloppy.

Okay, so this is Super Metroid 100% map completion. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of the route, I like runs in which I get to see the entire map and all the areas in the game. And, it is fairly refreshing to see certain areas you normally wouldn't see in other types of runs, such as the Grappling Beam escape room, or the area east of the Wrecked Ship. However, barring that, it really does feel like a 100% item completion run of the game with only minor differences - i.e. entering certain rooms, but leaving without picking up the items, and briefly running through the aforementioned areas. Maybe the run should have also picked up 100% items to give going to certain rooms more purpose. The route is so similar in most places anyway it might as well have been. Most of the shinesparks the submission text notes did not really stand out to me to be honest. (In general, that's a really weird thing to quantify, no? That's like counting how many walljumps a run has.) Other than that, the planning and execution doesn't look as tight as we've come to be used from Super Metroid runs. Often, you seem to be struggling for refills, and some route choices are questionable to me. I can forgive some inaccuracies in the play, as this game is very difficult to TAS, but when it has to compete with such tightly optimized movies as the current 100% item run on the site, I don't think it can make the cut. There's also the big problem of using other authors' input without credit. At the very least, cpadolf should be credited as a coauthor. The movie definitely has its place somewhere, but the site already has more than enough unorthodox category choices for Super Metroid. I did appreciate many of the little touches, like playing with the weapon select sound in the drop after Spore Spawn, that was pretty cool. The gauntlet was also handled very well, but overall, it's unfortunately just not enough to set it apart. Really, what I'm waiting for still is Super Metroid "100% Zebetites Killed"

lets not go and give him more ideas on what we don't need for a tas, as for the run itself at times I felt more like I was watching the 100% run with some minor cuts to attempt to show off every part of the map, it could honestly make another sub category but for now I want to see if any more information can be gathered on what tricks were used and which glitches (if any) were omitted. for a game that ive seen torn apart and rebuilt from the ground up this was a very lack luster run, and have to give honest laughs for all the lurkers who signed up just for this run which stands a snowball's chance in hell right now. solid no here and if your wanting a meh from me then show me the 1:30 time cut off of this but go back and at least if your not going to collect all the items show me that you know they are there. with that in mind im sure you could even shave more then that minute plus if you used the right missiles on the doors when you have them and aren't using them

Spikestuff...thanks for your comments. By the time the first comment was placed on this site, I realized that I forgot to give credit on the parts that I used from CPAdolf. My apologies. As for my previous attempts, please don't judge my future attempts with my past. This is one reason why I engaged the active Super Metroid community from Deertier.com. Tangent...Thanks for your comment. Basically, the tricks that were mostly used were humanly impossible shinesparks that are used to color in map sqaures that would normally be difficult for a human to accomplished. For one, the Green Gate Glitch was used in conjunction with a charge for a shinespark to fall in the water on the way to the grapple beam. This saved 5 seconds over the effort of Sweetnumb's WR. A list was provided for many of the time saving shinesparks...which honestly perform the coloring a lot faster. Invariel...Thanks for your comment as well. No disrespect was intended by copying optimized TASing inputs from CPAdolf. My neglect in mentioning this is noted above to SpikeStuff. howerver, my previous submissions state this as well. CPAdolf is a TASing hero of mine. I studied his stuff in order to produce what I submitted. Samsara...thanks for your comment. I am saddened by the fact that non runners of Super Metroid can make such harsh judgment over the categories that are currently being competed in. The best of the best are on deertier.com and have been the biggest contributors of making this TAS. As you have stated, live TAS creations have been streamed before, I merely meant that none have done so for Super Metroid. Mothrayas...thanks for your comment. If you would like to know the big difference between the routes used in my TAS and the human ran category, please refer to deertier.com and look for SweetNumb's WR under the category "100% Map Completion". The route used in my TAS was done so because the limitations of a human wouldn't allow such techniques used...such as the "Mote Spark", which prevented 2 revisits to the moat area heading towards the wrecked ship...thus saving door transistion time and area traversing time. keylie...Thanks for your question. Basically, Super Metroid performs glitched runs that basically break the game so that the runner can perform tricks that cause the game to go into a crazy state. Since runners of this game want to know if major glitches where used, we normally have to mention that for the category being ran. Glitches of this nature are cleared defined between normal types of runs and game breaking runs. Minor glitches are used, such as "Pause Abuse" to prevent the death of Samus where 0 HP was recorded after the Crocomire fight. Invariel...in regards to your second post: The fact that Samus runs into a room and the quickly returns is part of the 100% Map completion. Please check the map to determine if a pink square is being lit up...which is the goal of this TAS. As for the rooms that I ran in further, it depended on the goal for the next room being visited. For instance...getting more of a running start was necessary to build up running speed to jump further. If this was not necessary, then a shorter distance was required...thus maximizing the effort of my run. This TAS brings to light all of the areas that are no longer being visited in other categories...such as any%, 100% item, and even the low% categories. As for your other comments, I merely forgot to mention the other parts of the TAS that were copied. According to TASVideos, this is not illegal...but my other two submissions state the use of this. The OoB play was not part of the original intent of this category, but Eterniseddragon and WildAnaconda69 are currently working on a new category that might address what you are looking for. scrimpeh...Thanks for you comment. Basically, the community of deertier.com came up with the rules for this category. Picking up all the items would have pushed my time beyond the human record, which would have disappointed them. The fewer the items, the more time saved...but you are right, health was a concern of mine and now that I have completed it...it does give me ideas on how to correct it. In regards to resubmitting, it's not that easy to just go and make small changes. If I were to correct a problem in the beginning of this TAS...it would be months to realign the rest of it. It's just too much time to go back, when you have found something. A overall review must be in effect, before writting it over. supersonicjc...Thanks for your comment. I just wish that the there were more members that understood the categories that are being ran in the Super Metroid community, but I have to say that some of the things you mentioned were legit. For example, my used of 5 missiles, rather than a super, was intended because of future use. The rewrite of this TAS to pull of those necessary super missiles was difficult to manipulate RNG and thus I had to hold on to them for their soon use in areas that were absolutely critical. This TAS was a good effort over the human WR and was received with extreme excitement among them. I am only giving them what they asked for. To all...As for any unknown reasons for Samus's movement, just check the map to see if a pink square is being produced. Afterall, this is the purpose of this TAS...to complete the entire map. My reason for all of my submissions, are one of curiosity on a TAS time...which is not available. If none is ever done, how will we ever know? And if a category is being posted on deetier.com, shouldn't a TAS be created to understand the human limitations?

Title: Great :D:D:D Game play: what did I see o.O?! Optimality: no no no...

What kills my interest is that this goal choice would be perfect for a glitchy playaround of Super Metroid, yet the author opts for glitchless. I'll still watch the encode and put in a vote, but I'm not exactly going in with high hopes as far as entertainment and the notes actually say there's about 90 seconds of known improvements available.

S My reason for all of my submissions, are one of curiosity on a TAS time...which is not available. If none is ever done, how will we ever know? And if a category is being posted on deetier.com, shouldn't a TAS be created to understand the human limitations?

One problem:

What kills my interest is that this goal choice would be perfect for a glitchy playaround of Super Metroid, yet the author opts for glitchless.

This would've not only pushed human limitations, but it would also be pushing the game's limit and (potentially) be more entertaining.

RE JECT. i hate more categories for the same games we have perfectly reasonable runs already

There’s a lot of feedback here, and since I’m listed as one of the contributors I thought I would give my two cents:

This is the first known calaboration between a TASer and community.

This might be a bold statement, but you can’t hold nymx or anyone else to possibly know of every TAS for every game and how they were collaborated on. This specific TAS was worked on and authored _in the open_ and broadcasted on Twitch for everyone to watch and help collaborate on (hence the long list of collaborators). I can’t recall of a single occurrence of this for Super Metroid - especially for a “legit” category - “legit” being defined as being listed on deertier.com.

If community “calaboration” is so important, why wasn’t this community involved in any way? I find it incredibly sketchy that nothing about this run was mentioned here until this submission… I’m all for collaboration, believe me, but is it really even collaboration if you’re not reaching out to a community that knows what they’re doing?

I can’t speak for nymx here. I, personally didn’t know that posting userfiles on tasvideos.org was an option. If I had I would have suggested nymx do this. I do think it’s unfair to discredit nymx or this video on this premise though. nymx was clearly seeking collaboration, and looked to an active community of Super Metroid runners (on Twitch) and those with an incredible level of knowledge about the game.

I think the goal choice is arbitrary. These kinds of runs have been rejected before. Barring that fact, we already have about 4500 published runs for Super Metroid, what does this one bring to the table? Does it add anything significant…?

I do not think the goal choice is not arbitrary, and as I already mentioned - it is a “legit” category and is listed on deertier.com which is the standard for all Super Metroid rankings. The run you listed as being banned is taken from one of the earlier Castlevania games. No disrespect but comparing the movement of your character in Super Metroid and Castlevania is like comparing Apples to Oranges. This TAS shows a vast array of strats and technique that we have not previously seen in other Super Metroid TASes - especially by those authored by cpadolf and saturn. Because this category requires every tile to be explored this requires that the majority of the game be played in a way that we haven’t witnessed in other Super Metroid TASes. It requires a lot of creative maneuvering of Samus to complete the primary category objective while maintaining speed, avoid unnecessary item collection, avoiding unnecessary multiple passes through rooms and tiles, and provide entertainment value. I’m not going to list out every room here, but a selected few strats that are vastly different than other TASes are Red Tower Shinespark, The Moat Shinespark, and Mother Brain fight. The routing in this TAS is very different from the current WR, and to compare these two room by room, and strat by strat could be a book in itself and it’s simply easier and more time conserving just to watch the videos.

If there are 90 seconds of known improvements and an updated submission is being made, why even submit this one? I completely understand if someone spends a long time working on a TAS, gets burnt out, and ends up finding improvements later on but doesn’t have the motivation to incorporate them into a new run, but that clearly isn’t the case. 90 seconds is pretty significant, even for a longer run like this, not to mention there will likely be further optimizations found on a second pass. Unless it’s going to take the better part of a year, it would’ve probably been better off to have waited for the improved version.

Again, it’s not really my place to speak for nymx here, but I know he spent at least 6 months of actively authoring this TAS, and spent at least a year prior doing research and planning. One cannot simply go back and optimize a section of the game without scrapping the rest of it. He could’ve literally spent years and years working on this TAS! I think it’s unfair to say this TAS should be totally optimized considering it’s the first of its kind. capadolf submitted multiple runs of a category as they discovered new optimizations - even if by only 20 seconds (http://tasvideos.org/1686S.html compared to http://tasvideos.org/1863S.html)! I think this TAS sets a great base line for future TASes of this kind to be improved upon. ------- I think this is a great TAS. Super Metroid has had a lot of TASes authored (some of which are pretty epic in my book). I think this one does a great job using tech that we’ve all seen before used in new ways we haven’t seen to make this an entertaining and _fast as heck_ run. I look forward to future improvements, but I think this is a solid baseline for a TAS of this category. To all the users out there “rejecting” this run. It would be much more helpful to the author of the TAS and to the community if you could provide valid feedback (some of you have) about your reasons for rejection.

Also currently we're curious on your starting input being identical to Cpadolf's TAS.

You seem to be very down on me not quoting my sources, but in fact I have done that previously and forgot this time. My appologies. However!, you seem to be taking 95.5886% credit for the youtube video that you posted on your channel. Where are the creators mentioned for NYMX and EternisedDragon? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_QABQ0IsS4

Don't blame me on something you did. You're defending the air (nothing).

However!, you seem to be taking 95.5886% credit for the youtube video that you posted on your channel. Where are the creators mentioned for NYMX and EternisedDragon?

Oh, you're cute. Have you properly looked at what the video is currently set as? 1. This is an unlisted temp encode. 2. It means it's going to be deleted. 3. The only public way of seeing this video is through TASVideos. Don't give me that lip.

I think the goal choice is arbitrary. These kinds of runs have been rejected before. Barring that fact, we already have about 4500 published runs for Super Metroid, what does this one bring to the table? Does it add anything significant…?

I do not think the goal choice is not arbitrary, and as I already mentioned - it is a “legit” category and is listed on deertier.com which is the standard for all Super Metroid rankings. The run you listed as being banned is taken from one of the earlier Castlevania games. No disrespect but comparing the movement of your character in Super Metroid and Castlevania is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

It doesn't matter how RTA communities categorize runs, it's about entertainment. If a non-any% category makes for a good TAS, publish it, if not, reject it.