The "populist argument" as you call it (with which you probably mean "argument from popularity", which I think is not the same thing) isn't actually stupid in this case.
You didn't say "this show is not very good" to which I replied "most people disagree with you". You said "there's not much content for a certain age range". If that were true, then not many people from that age range would watch the show. Quite many do, which means there is some content there that they like. (After all, there are hundreds if not even thousands of kids programs playing currently around the world, and the vast majority is not followed by any significant number of teenagers nor adults. This show is. There must be something different about it.)
The populist fallacy is idiotic and irrelevant in every instance that it's used, including this one. Once again, argue the actual merits of the show...if you can. Otherwise, I get the impression you're an offended fan with no substantive rebuttals to make.
However, since you keep bringing it up, I will tell you why the show has popularity with an older crowd, too; it's the infantilization of modern-day culture. This phenomena has nothing to do specifically with MLP; you can see it everywhere.
25 year old guys watching brain-dead CGI superhero films intended for 8 year-olds (compare this to what an adult crowd watched for most of the 70s, whether it be "Network", "Last Tango in Paris", or "The Godfather"), women in their 40s becoming raving fans of "Twilight", etc.
Yes, lots of adults nowadays have juvenile tastes. If that's the best defense you can make for your beloved show, I rest my case.
Warp wrote:
Strong characterization, humor, emotional appeal, innocent fun. Not boring to watch.
Characterization? The little horsies are all meant to be simple cliches of one kind or another. You have the outgoing tomboy horse, the sweet Southern horse, the shallow/fashion-obsessed horsie, etc.
Which is totally fine for a kids' show, by the way. But "characterization" is about the worst possible argument you could make for the series, even if you love it.
As for "humor", it's a bunch of horsies doing cutesy horsie things. It might elicit a smile here and there, but not actual laughter. I challenge you to link me to a single episode which features a genuinely funny joke.
Lastly, when it comes to "emotional appeal", if MLP manages to do that for you, I would recommend checking out Danielle Steele's romance fiction, as well as "Eat Pray Love", and any number of other Julia Roberts chick flicks.
Personally, I find them to be brain-dead, emotionally manipulative garbage, but hey, they are a little bit smarter than "Twilight", and since you thought that was okay...
Warp wrote:
There are certainly much worse things one could be watching than this.
Yes, and there are much better things one can be watching, too.
Which is why I find it so weird that you chose to respond to and argue with my post, since I did mention MLP is very much above average by the standards of a typical kids' cartoon.
However, since you keep bringing it up, I will tell you why the show has popularity with an older crowd, too; it's the infantilization of modern-day culture.
That claim would be more believable if most kids' shows were popular among teenagers and adults. They aren't, hence your claim is BS.
You have a curiously aggressive attitude towards this phenomenon. I'm wondering why.
(It actually reminds me of those fat mustard-stained-shirt-wearing beer-drinking unkempt men sitting on their couch watching a local news story about eg. an anime convention and muttering "nerds, get a life".)
And btw, you still missed my point. Again: You didn't say "this is a low-quality show". You said "there's not much that this has to offer to this periphery demographic", to which I objected. That's not the same thing.
No. Just no.
For fuck sake can't you people be civilized about anything? I created this thread for genuine discussion about the show, but all it has turned out to be is flaming and counter-flaming.
I'm asking for this thread to be locked.
Jesus Christ.
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Yoshi's Island any% TAS with Carl Sagan
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Arguments aren't inherently uncivilized, you all silly. They can often devolve into pointless bickering if they go on for too long, but talking about your differing opinions is generally a good thing. Love and Tolerate, guys.
That said, IronSlayer, not liking the show is fine, but based on the points you made, I would implore you to watch 1 or 2 more episodes before totally writing it off. The first two aren't very representative, and the 3rd is in the lower end of the quality spectrum that the show provides.
While I'm not really a fan of the end-of-episode-lectures either, I can cut it some slack for being a kid's show at heart. And they're not nearly long or obtrusive enough for me to find them annoying. I also can't agree with them being bad lessons, nothing revolutionary for the older audience, sure, but reinforcing "Trust in your friends" and "Don't judge a book by the cover" (what most of them amount to :P) seems like a pretty decent message to me.
And about the humor, I've straight out laughed at the show probably every episode, but I wouldn't object to someone calling my sense of humor juvenile either, so bah.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
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Location: Making an escape
I repeat something I said earlier: You dropped this topic in the middle of a community that isn't about ponies. Surely you understood the social stigma the show carries, so if you were expecting everyone here to share the love you have with the show, you deserve to be disappointed.
Also, to clarify something I said on page 2: The moment in episode 2 I was talking about was Twilight's confrontation with Nightmare. Especially bad was when everyone else wandered in on the fight. "And So-and-So, by, blah-blah-blah, represents the spirit of Such-and-Such!" I am truthfully baffled by how adults genuinely enjoy such an over-the-top display. I blame Japan. :P
IronSlayer wrote:
I challenge you to link me to a single episode which features a genuinely funny joke.
Fluttershy gives you twoexamples; just ignore Rainbow's unnatural voice acting in the first, though.
I've been doing a little more thinking about how the show managed to explode in popularity. I've narrowed it down to three factors combining:
1) The show is based on an old franchise known for being aimed at girls.
2) The show is passable enough in its quality, having some strong moments on occasion.
3) The meme-friendly nature of the internet acts as a sort of self-reinforcing sounding board.
All three of these things had to be present. If the internet were not around when the show started, it may have earned a level of popularity, but nothing big. It probably would just be referred to as "Perhaps the best My Little Pony cartoon made" years down the road. If it weren't very good, it probably would have gotten passed over the way the G3 cartoons did. If the cartoon were the same, but the characters were replaced with things that weren't related to ponies, it would likely be regarded as Faust's attempt at providing entertainment for little kids.
But it's a show of questionable heritage, managing to rise above its shameful past to put something good on? Throw 4chan into that mix and BAM!
A character that appears for two seconds in the background has a name, a job as a mail carrier, and a daughter, getting that attention merely because her eyes weren't looking the same direction.
And that's about the gist of it: the meme-tastic nature of the internet has managed to take the show and turn it into a completely different beast. At this point I'm convinced most fans have more fun being fans than they do actually watching the show. Talking about the show, assigning certain characteristics to characters, writing fanfiction and whatnot Are the major things you find in other communities. Rarely can you hold a conversation about the actual merits of the show without someone talking about the totalitarian nature of Celestia. Or Rainbow being a lesbian. And since it takes place on the internet, it all reinforces itself, spiraling out of control. It's amazing furries have managed to survive before the days of the World Wide Web!
And it's all possible because it's a My Little Pony cartoon that is passable in quality. Because, you see, it's funny that I enjoy a show made for girls, but it's actually good so I can justify myself, see, all my internet buddies can back me up!
And yes, I too have fallen for that trap. Why do you think I submitted that Runaway Rainbow run?
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
3) The meme-friendly nature of the internet acts as a sort of self-reinforcing sounding board.
I will never see an episode in the same way anymore after reading about wingboners. Damn you internet!
On another note, one thing that surprises me a bit about this series are the songs. I usually don't dig songs that much, especially not in TV series, but the songs in this series are surprisingly catchy. I'm always like "ach, not a song again... hey, this is not half-bad". Even songs that are supposed to be bad in-story (such as the "you gotta share, you gotta care") are surprisingly good. (I'm pretty impressed how the author of this song really managed to make the song sound both believably bad, yet still catchy.)
However, since you keep bringing it up, I will tell you why the show has popularity with an older crowd, too; it's the infantilization of modern-day culture.
That claim would be more believable if most kids' shows were popular among teenagers and adults. They aren't, hence your claim is BS.
No, my claim isn't bullshit, since not only were the examples I cited instances of adults liking works targeted at juveniles, (and not because of their intrinsic content) but there are PLENTY of cartoons with a massive adult following nowadays.
Look at something like Spongebob a few years back.
But fine, you have the tastes of an 8 year-old, Warp. You've proved your point.
Warp wrote:
You have a curiously aggressive attitude towards this phenomenon. I'm wondering why.
The only one who has been "curiously aggressive" here is you.
I made a single post stating my view on the show, which wasn't even particularly negative. I wrote absolutely nothing about the show's following or any "phenomena". (Are you confusing me with someone else?) That was going to be the end of my participation in the topic.
Then, you showed up and started angrily responding to my every post. You sound like an obsessed fanboy who can't handle that someone doesn't like his favorite show (which every other MLP fan here seems to be able to), but isn't smart enough to come back with any substantial arguments.
Warp wrote:
(It actually reminds me of those fat mustard-stained-shirt-wearing beer-drinking unkempt men sitting on their couch watching a local news story about eg. an anime convention and muttering "nerds, get a life".)
HAHA, an ad hominem fallacy to go along with the populist fallacy you keep citing? How appropriate.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm actually more on the skinny side, I don't drink beer, none of my shirts have mustard stains (as far as I can tell, at least), and my home doesn't have either a couch or a television.
I will admit to occasionally being unkempt and having a slightly ambivalent attitude towards anime conventions; I enjoy a lot of anime, but would never go to one, although my present girlfriend (who is nerdier than I am) has been to a few and keeps trying to convince me...
Warp wrote:
And btw, you still missed my point. Again: You didn't say "this is a low-quality show". You said "there's not much that this has to offer to this periphery demographic", to which I objected. That's not the same thing.
Well, until you make a comment about the actual content of the show, I think responding to any more of your posts will probably be a waste of time.
In the meantime, there have been posts actually dealing with the show;
Dragonfangs wrote:
That said, IronSlayer, not liking the show is fine, but based on the points you made, I would implore you to watch 1 or 2 more episodes before totally writing it off. The first two aren't very representative, and the 3rd is in the lower end of the quality spectrum that the show provides.
Maybe I'll give it a shot!
Ferret Warlord wrote:
Fluttershy gives you two examples; just ignore Rainbow's unnatural voice acting in the first, though.
The first one was quite amusing, probably moreso than anything I have seen so far. Even had a punchline. I chuckled a bit. The second one was cute, but predictable after having seen the first one, lessening the potential humor.
Anyways, for me, good humor is heavily dialogue-based, (compare MLP to an animated comedy show like "The Simpsons" or (I know this isn't totally fair) "Archer") which MLP doesn't have in part because of its main target audience. They try to do some physical comedy, but I guess they don't want to scare the little kids since it's frequently too tame.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
At this point I'm convinced most fans have more fun being fans than they do actually watching the show.
Then, you showed up and started angrily responding to my every post.
For the record, that first reply I made to your post was humorous, not "angry" or "aggressive". I do not often use smileys to denote the tone of my posts, but I do use the mood avatars (I use this avatar for serious posts and the other avatars for non-serious ones).
You, on the other hand, have called me in particular and the community in general "infantile", "obsessed fanboy" and "having tastes of a 8-year old". (And no, before you object, I did not call you a fat beer-drinking etc. guy; I simply said that your behavior reminds me of that kind of behavior, iow. a bit on the hypocritical side.) Why do you need the feel to insult me and the fans of the show?
Not precisely what I meant, but again, cute stuff. Here's a substantive question, though; is MLP the best childrens' cartoon you (or any other fan of the series) has seen?
Personally, it's among the better ones I've come across, but worse than both "Pinky and the Brain" and "Conan the Adventurer" among English language ones, and also inferior to "Capitan Vrungel", "Vinnie Pukh", "Cheburashka", and a few other Soviet works I grew up watching as a 4 year-old in Moscow.
And if there's a music performance in MLP as catchy and funny as this one, please let me know.Warp wrote:
You, on the other hand, have called me in particular and the community in general "infantile", "obsessed fanboy" and "having tastes of a 8-year old". (And no, before you object, I did not call you a fat beer-drinking etc. guy; I simply said that your behavior reminds me of that kind of behavior, iow. a bit on the hypocritical side.) Why do you need the feel to insult me and the fans of the show?
I really should just ignore this, but "obsessed fanboy" and "tastes of an 8 year-old" was very specifically about you and your behavior in this topic, while "infantilization" was a broad statement about all of modern Western society and their entertainment consumption. I have yet to make any general remark, positive or negative, about the fans of MLP.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
This cancer has developed to an advanced stage.
I'm gonna follow the standard procedures of anonymous and administer Gore chemotherapy.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
What cancer is that? Let us focus the chemo where it matters.
We may be divided
But of you all, I beg
To remember we're all hoofed
At the end of each leg
No matter what the issue
Come from wherever you please
All this fighting gets you nothing
But hoof-and-mouth disease
Arguing's not the way
Hey, come out and play
It's a shiny, new day
So what do you say?
You gotta share
You gotta care
It's the right thing to do
You gotta share
You gotta care
And there'll always be a way through
Both our diets, I should mention
Are completely vegetarian
We all eat hay and oats
Why be at each other's throat?
You gotta share
You gotta care
It's the right thing to do
And there'll always be a way
Thro-o-o-o-ugh
I agree. That pony fanboyism thing was fun when it was still new, and I agree it's a good show, but idk. Seeing this thread at the top everyday is a bit much for me too. ^^
That video was kind of funny though. :p
Blimey, good chap, surely you can't be serious!
