Post by Toothache

Posted: 11/17/2009 1:06 AM

Quote

Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

Satoryu wrote:

Finally, it might be better to try to first get rid of the bosses that cannot be SDC'd. Guys like Mijinion.

I don't quite understand this one. Why would you want to get rid of those bosses first who would possibly benefit from more weapons/items? Of course you want to kill bosses who can be killed quickly without extra stuff, right? I think getting Saber+ and Hyper Dash right away is the way to go (then again I've always said that and nobody's interested to go with it). They are the most beneficial abilities you can get in the game, after all. This assuming we're talking about 8-boss here. 100% might differ a bit and for 1-boss it isn't worth it.

Posted: 11/17/2009 2:24 AM

Quote

Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

I say do those bosses earlier because they'd have less health. If you put off Mijinion, for example, until he's lvl2 or 3, that a couple extra Z Busters to finish him off. But guys and Yammark and Sheldon of require a few more frames of SDCing, even at lvl4. I am very, very doubtful Hyper Dash first would work out in a game time 8boss run. In fact, I did quick test runs that supported my hypothesis. Which means I am even more doubtful for it working in a real time run.

Posted: 11/25/2009 4:36 PM

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Noxxa

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I don't think Turtloid's second area would be worth visiting, considering Turtloid's level is very long to begin with. As for the route: First: Shield Sheldon OR Infinity Mijinion 2nd area (get Zero) Commander Yammark as Zero Infinity Mijinion as X or Zero (dunno, probably X) (Yammar Option kills the minibosses very fast). Then (possibly) a Maverick with a weapon that could kill Heatnix' minibosses quickly (maybe Yammar Option works), then Blaze Heatnix with either X or Zero (dunno either). There, we've had the non-SDC-able bosses, which if Satoryu is correct should be done earlier. From there: -Blizzard Wolfang after Rainy Turtloid (Ensuizan invincibility glitch is very useful at the first part) -the other bosses don't really matter when you do them (all will probably be done with Zero) So we'll end up with like: Sheldon 2nd - Yammark - Mijinion - Heatnix - Turtloid - Wolfang - Shark - Sheldon - Scaravich The difference between the last four is minimal, but maybe one of them has an useful and easy to get Part; if so, that one should be done before the others. EDIT:I just remembered the whole Guard Shell boss killing trick, like in this old video. Now we should do Sheldon before Turtloid, or even before that. Sheldon 2nd - Yammark - Mijinion - Heatnix - Sheldon - Turtloid - Wolfang - Shark - Scaravich ? EDIT2: It should be tested how fast doing Rainy Turtloid's secondary area first (to get Zero) is. If it's not several minutes slower than using Shieldner Sheldon's secondary area, it would actually be worthwhile to do that to get Z-Saber Plus and Hyper Dash.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/2/2010 4:40 PM

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Noxxa

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I just TASed Rainy Turtloid's stage to see how much slower it is. I copied the intro stage input from FractalFusion's published X6 run and pasted a Rainy Turtloid TAS behind it: I hit Nightmare Zero's second boss gate at frame 18999. For comparison, FractalFusion hits Shield Sheldon's secondary level's secondary boss gate at frame 16235. It's a 2764 frames (46 seconds) difference. PXM movie file This means it's definitely worth it to get Hyper Dash and Z-Saber Plus.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/3/2010 6:11 PM

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Rolanmen1

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Encode: http://www.filefront.com/15494205/X6-Test.mp4/

Posted: 2/3/2010 9:41 PM

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Noxxa

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I revised the route again: First, we'll get Zero through Rainy Turtloid's secondary area, grabbing Z-Saber Plus and Hyper Dash along the way. Now, we need rank A to be able to use 1 part. For rank A we need 500 Nightmare souls. This typically means destroying 3 Investigators for 200 souls each, so we'll do three short or otherwise useful stages first: Shield Sheldon, Commander Yammark and Infinity Mijinion. I don't know which of these is faster: -Doing Sheldon before Yammark to use Guard Shell to beat Yammark faster (possibly; using the menu to activate Guard Shell costs time); -Doing Yammark before Sheldon to change the mirrors' direction faster; Additionally, since Rainy Turtloid causes Yammark's final area to be rainy, slowing rightward speed, and Mijinion removes that, Mijinion may be faster to do before Yammark; this means viable routes would be either Sheldon>Mijinion>Yammark or Yammark>Sheldon>Mijinion. I'm currently leaning towards the former. Doing Sheldon before Mijinion allows Zero to whomp the two minibosses (cables) somewhat faster through usage of Guard Shell. Now that we have enough souls to equip one part, we'll equip Hyper Dash and the next boss will be Scaravich, because using Sentsuizan on a level 2 Heatnix is probably faster than triple slash and Z-Buster on a level 1 Heatnix. Heatnix should be done after this. (if Rekkoha, Yammar Option or Guard Shell don't kill the donut minibosses quickly, I don't know what does). If Sentsuizan on level 2 Heatnix is slower, (I doubt it though), we'll skip Scaravich until last and do Heatnix now. The sixth (fifth if Scaravich would be skipped) boss to fight is Rainy Turtloid because on sixth place it's the last one to fight before they go to level 3 (iirc) and Ensuizan's invincibility glitch is useful on both remaining stages, Metal Shark Player and Blizzard Wolfang. Those two can be done interchangably, though I recommend Wolfang being done first in case Scaravich's blocks stick around to hinder you in Metal Shark Player's stage. So the final route is: Turtloid 2nd (get Zero) > Shield Sheldon > Infinity Mijinion > Commander Yammark > Ground Scaravich > Blaze Heatnix > Rainy Turtloid > Blizzard Wolfang > Metal Shark Player. (I just realized that this nearly exactly the regular boss weakness order, the only exceptions being Turtloid and Wolfang being switched around. Lol.)

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/3/2010 10:23 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

I thought it was determined that Guard Shell was not worth using in a TAS. pault had comparison videos made a while ago, showing that SDCing Turtloid with Guard Shell was slower than wthout. I always smelled a rat with those videos, to be honest. The irregular pace he SDCed with GS just doesn't seem right. But also, he was using the old method of SDC, not the one Fractalfusion came up with. I don't know how well GS works with the new method. Anyway,

Mothrayas wrote:

Now, we need rank A to be able to use 1 part. For rank A we need 500 Nightmare souls. This typically means destroying 3 Investigators for 200 souls each, so we'll do three short or otherwise useful stages first:

You could beat 2 bosses and collect 13 soul orbs in their stages. That might not be possible with the stages you have in mind, though.

Mothrayas wrote:

if Rekkoha, Yammar Option or Guard Shell don't kill the donut minibosses quickly, I don't know what does

Charged Metal Anchor is the fastest way to deal with them. However, X is not going to be able to equip Hyper Dash for Heatnix's stage without already beating at least 2 other bosses with him. I don't know if a Zero w/ Hyper Dash can beat an X without.

Posted: 2/4/2010 3:35 PM

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Noxxa

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Satoryu wrote:

I thought it was determined that Guard Shell was not worth using in a TAS. pault had comparison videos made a while ago, showing that SDCing Turtloid with Guard Shell was slower than wthout. I always smelled a rat with those videos, to be honest. The irregular pace he SDCed with GS just doesn't seem right. But also, he was using the old method of SDC, not the one Fractalfusion came up with. I don't know how well GS works with the new method.

Yeah, Guard Shell probably isn't going to save much time on most (or even all) bosses. It might save time in Infinity Mijinion's stage, however, because with Guard Shell the minibosses can be beaten with a single air slash. EDIT: Guard Shell is only one hit away from a one slash kill. Still works decently as a timesaver, though.

Satoryu wrote:

You could beat 2 bosses and collect 13 soul orbs in their stages. That might not be possible with the stages you have in mind, though.

There are several Nightmares in Infinity Mijinion's level (which can be quickly beaten by air slashing with Guard Shell through them), which in turn allows Zero to use Hyper Dash in the much longer Yammark level. That would probably be a timesaver. EDIT: Just tested, it's easy to get 13 souls without wasting too much time, so that will be of help as well.

Satoryu wrote:

Mothrayas wrote:
if Rekkoha, Yammar Option or Guard Shell don't kill the donut minibosses quickly, I don't know what does
Charged Metal Anchor is the fastest way to deal with them. However, X is not going to be able to equip Hyper Dash for Heatnix's stage without already beating at least 2 other bosses with him. I don't know if a Zero w/ Hyper Dash can beat an X without.

To use Metal Anchor would mean that either Metal Shark Player (as well as Ground Scaravich to not make Heatnix himself take ages to defeat) would have to be done before Turtloid, missing out on his weakness weapon and the Ensuizan invincibility glitch, or we'd have to wait and do Heatnix as one of the last bosses, leveling him up more to make the boss fight longer still. I think the best option is to see if it's possible to one-shot them with Rekkoha, and otherwise use the massive damage Rekkoha does anyway and finish off the rest with Yammar Option or maybe Guard Shell.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/4/2010 7:53 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

Assuming you don't use X too much beforehand, Heatnix would still be level 1. And you can probably get away with moving Turtloid up. More Ensuizan invincibility can only be a good thing.

Posted: 2/4/2010 8:04 PM

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Noxxa

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Even if Heatnix is level 1, X still has inferior damage output, even with Ground Dash, and he still misses out on Hyper Dash.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/4/2010 9:28 PM

Quote

Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

All very true. If it weren't for Hyper Dash, X probably would be the best choice. But yeah, Zero's the way to go in this situation. One question, though; does pcsx eliminate any of Rekkoha's lag?

Posted: 2/8/2010 6:47 PM

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Noxxa

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Route change yet again! I found that the level system is really messed up. For example, Blaze Heatnix doesn't have anything changed at all (HP-wise at least) between level 1 and 2 and Ground Scaravich always has the same HP, regardless of whether he's level 1 or level 4. Since Sentsuizan does the same damage as a Saber Plus-ed final hit of a triple slash, it's rather pointless to do Scaravich before Heatnix. His 'resistance' to SDC (taking only 1 damage from a single slash instead of the standard 2) also makes it slower to fight him anywhere after when we get Saber Plus. At the same time, there's still Rainy Turtloid's nightmare effect slowing things down in his stage (said effect can only be removed by doing Metal Shark Player after Turtloid, and Scaravich after that). Also, there's still the fact that his HP doesn't increase anyway. Conclusion: Drop Scaravich to last place. Now, since we can't get Saber Plus after four bosses, it's still time-wasting to do Heatnix as the fourth boss. Basically we need some filler inbetween. Rainy Turtloid is the only really viable option at this point, even though he shares the same SDC-'resistance' as Scaravich. New route: Turtloid secondary area (get Zero) > Shield Sheldon > Infinity Mijinion > Commander Yammark > Rainy Turtloid > Blaze Heatnix > Blizzard Wolfang > Metal Shark Player > Ground Scaravich

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/8/2010 11:10 PM

Quote

Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

Weird. I personally think Player's blocks are more of a bother than Turtloid's rain. The blocks show up in every area, I believe, while the rain only shows up in about half the areas. And in a couple areas, you'd find yourself going left, making the rain an advantage instead of a handicap. You could manipulate it so you don't get the areas with rain. Or you can do Scaravich before Heatnix and Turtloid to not deal with either problem.

Posted: 2/10/2010 8:20 PM

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Noxxa

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There's only one area where you have to move left in Scaravich's stage, and that is in the circular, longest route. And it doesn't even rain in there. At the same time, Shark's blocks can actually be beneficial in the aquatic background section where you have to go up (I think this is one of the faster places). Really, the fastest places in Scaravich's stages are, as far as I know: -One of the Egyptian style areas, at least -The aquatic style area where you have to go up and for the second round: -at least one of the space style areas -either the other space style area, or the dino style maze area (not the circular one) I don't think Shark's blocks are a big hindrance in any of them. Rain is a definite time loss.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/25/2010 10:22 PM

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Noxxa

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For those who didn't know already, AngerFist, Atma, FractalFusion and I have started an 8-boss run for the game. Here's the WIP for the intro stage (stage by Atma, bosses by me) and Rainy Turtloid's secondary area (stage and boss by me). Now, since I've reached the point just before the eight bosses are going to be fought, I wanted to revise the route a final time and make sure that it's the fastest. Bringing in some facts: Damage chart:

*a hyphen implies a character cannot be hit with the move. 0 damage implies that a move can be used, but does no damage.
*hitting Yammark with his own dragonflies does 3 damage to him.
*Guard Shell reflectable projectiles:
Blizzard Wolfang: Icicles, Ice balls
Metal Shark Player: Blast Hornet's hornets (not his anchors)
Shieldner Sheldon: His own Guard Shell shots (does no damage, though)
Infinity Mijinion: Orange balls (not purple lasers or bubbles)

ZS-TJ: Z-Saber Triple Jab (first hit, second hit, third hit)
ZSA: Z-Saber in the air (normal, circle)
ZSW: Z-Saber from wall
ZSC: Z-Saber crouch
ZBU: Z-Buster
YAM: Yammar option (shots, contact)
HYO: Hyoroga
SHO: Shoenzan
RAK: Rakukojin (spear, anchor)
SEN: Sentsuizan
ENS: Ensuizan
GSH: Guard Shell
REK: Rekkoha

                   ZS-TJ|ZSA|ZSW|ZSC|ZBU|YAM|HYO|SHO|RAK|SEN|ENS|GSH|REK
Commander Yammark  2:2:5|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |0:0| - | 2 |2:2| 2 | 2 | - | 8
Blizzard Wolfang   1:1:2|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |1:2| - | 8 |2:2| 2 | 2 | 2 | 0
Blaze Heatnix      2:2:5|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |1:2| 2 | 0 |2:2| 6 | 2 | - | 0
Metal Shark Player 2:2:5|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |1:2| - | 2 |4:0| 2 | 6 | 2 | 0
Ground Scaravich   1:1:2|2:2| - | 2 | 4 |5:5| - | 2 |2:2| 0 | 2 | - | 0
Rainy Turtloid     1:1:2|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |1:2| - | 2 |2:2| 2 | 2 | - | 0
Shieldner Sheldon  2:2:5|2:2| 2 | 0 | 4 |1:2| - | 2 |8:5| 2 | 2 | 0 | 0
Infinity Mijinion  2:2:5|2:2| 2 | 2 | 4 |1:2| - | 2 |2:2| 2 | 2 | 8 | 0

And a boss HP chart:

Boss HP:               L1   L2   L3   L4

Commander Yammark      32   36   44   48
Blizzard Wolfang       48   50   52   54
Blaze Heatnix          48   48   52   56
Metal Shark Player     48   48   52   56
Ground Scaravich       40   40   40   40
Rainy Turtloid         56   56   60   64
Shield Sheldon         32   36   44   48
Infinity Mijinion      48   48   52   56

First four bosses are level 1, fifth and sixth are level 2, and the seventh and eighth are level 3. Level 4 appears in Sigma's fortress, in the rematches. It takes three stages (or two stages and 13 nightmare souls, which is viable in Infinity Mijinion) (500 souls total) to be able to equip Hyper Dash. After four stages Saber Plus can be used. This is the current route: -Shieldner Sheldon (stage is very short and doesn't really benefit from most weapons (except Yammar Option, maybe), boss has low health (32)) -Infinity Mijinion (stage is also short, Guard Shell helps with minibosses and defeating numerous Nightmares to be able to equip Hyper Dash earlier; also removes a time-costing Nightmare in Commander Yammark's stage) -Commander Yammark (has low health (32) and a very useful weapon) -Rainy Turtloid (has a useful weapon that can cause an invincibility glitch that is useful for Metal Shark Player and Blizzard Wolfang's stages) -Blaze Heatnix (weapon saves a few frames against Blizzard Wolfang) -Metal Shark Player (removes time-costing Nightmare effect on Ground Scaravich's stage, replaces it by a possibly time-gaining effect) -Blizzard Wolfang -Ground Scaravich (for some reason, his health doesn't increase as his level increases).

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/26/2010 3:08 AM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

Would you happen to know what the game's clock keeps track of? Just curious, cause while looking at stuff from my old run and my in progress run, I noticed that the times you get after a level don't add up on the save screen. There must be something the Mission Report doesn't keep track of, but the game's clock does. My guess is the boss fights.

Posted: 2/26/2010 4:34 PM

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Noxxa

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RAM values CCF60-CCF63 keep track of the in game clock; the one on the pause screen and Mission Clear screen, at least. Funny note, once CCF63 surpasses 128 (which would need 256*256*256*128=2147483648 frames (which is roughly 9942 hours / 414 days)) the timer glitches out on the subscreen, using random icons instead of numbers and sometimes placing glitch blocks all over the screen.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/26/2010 5:03 PM

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Rolanmen1

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Experienced player (763)

Joined: 2/20/2009
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Encode Uploaded: http://www.filefront.com/15686763/Megaman%20X6%20WIP%20by%20Atma%2C%20AngerFist%2C%20FractalFusion%20and%20Mothrayas.mp4 Keep going dudes.

Posted: 2/26/2010 11:07 PM

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sgrunt

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Toothache wrote:

Mothrayas wrote:
RAM values CCF60-CCF63 keep track of the in game clock; the one on the pause screen and Mission Clear screen, at least. Funny note, once CCF63 surpasses 128 (which would need 256*256*256*128=2147483648 frames (which is roughly 9942 hours / 414 days)) the timer glitches out on the subscreen, using random icons instead of numbers and sometimes placing glitch blocks all over the screen.
This would make for a funny April Fools submission

A run that beats Desert Bus for longest submission? Yes vote.

Posted: 2/26/2010 11:58 PM

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alden

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Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522

How unoriginal! ;)

I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs

Posted: 3/5/2010 4:01 AM

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Rolanmen1

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Posts: 569
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Did this demonstration of X without Armor beating High Max, this was done for entertainment over speed. Movie File: http://www.mediafire.com/?um2w2itmzwm Download Video Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?zmtijxzjtlm Youtube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LivevUt_WzA

Posted: 3/5/2010 5:19 PM

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Sir_VG

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That was awesome. (Double funny that the link includes "Live" at the title, because it's neither live plus things that were are now dead. Har har.)

Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing

Posted: 3/8/2010 6:29 PM

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Rolanmen1

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Experienced player (763)

Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic

Im now working on a TAS of this game, my goal is to improve the current published run of FractalFusion. So far i did the intro stage. In this stage i improved 124 frames. Movie File: http://www.filefront.com/15776423/Megaman%20X6%20WIP%20by%20Rolanmen1.pxm Encode: http://www.mediafire.com/?zlmzimkjgn2 Next stage will be Shield Sheldon to get Zero. Im still thinking if it's the best stage to go after him, any suggestions?

Posted: 3/8/2010 7:07 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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The only stage that comes close is Infinity Mijinion's stage. You may want to test if that's faster.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

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