Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
giuocob wrote:
EDIT2: Stef, where did you get the rom that you used here? The one I have seems desynced with yours, and as such your movies consist entirely of running around Marin's house.
ROM requests, including links to known ROM distributors, aren't allowed here for legality reasons. Please read The Forum Rules, if you havne't already.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I'm not so sure that a doghouse-warping movie would be very entertaining anyway. It seems like a good portion of the movie would involve walking through glitchy areas and picking up a chest here and there. The last part of the movie would involve collecting all the instruments (once all items are picked up), but maybe it's possible to do that with the doghouse glitch as well... At any rate, it doesn't seem very entertaining to me. Maybe you should make a testrun that demonstrates the route? I could be completely wrong about this.
Anyway, the reason why you would use the black and white version is because the screen warp glitch is much faster than the doghouse glitch (unless I don't understand it properly). It seems like a contrived goal to use an "inferior" warping glitch when you could just complete the movie on the black and white version. I'm not saying this to be rude, just that the movie might not be received well on this site if the goals aren't as solid as they could be. But, in my opinion, a movie going through the game without warps should be much more entertaining anyway.
About the ROM versions, I was under the impression that I was using the (U) [!] version. However, I tested this at once point, and it seemed like I was actually using the (E) version... so, you should try that one if the (U) version doesn't work.
Alright, I'll get up a test run of a small portion of the movie. If that doesn't seem very fun to watch, I'll work on a non-warping version.
Anyway, what version of VBA did you use to record your movies? Maybe that's the problem.
Chef Stef: Still working on getting them to play.
Everyone else, I'll give you an idea of just how much would be skipped in a doghouse land run. Not absolutely everything could be done in glitchland. For example, the instruments can't be taken. I'm pretty sure I've been to almost all the relevant areas of doghouse land, and here's a list of things that I've come across:
Infinite heart containers
Infinite secret seashells
(Given that these first two would be the main feature of a 100% run, I agree that a warping full run is a bad idea.)
Face Key
Slime Key
Power bracelet (1 and 2)
Ocarina
Mirror Shield (up through level 9 :p)
Magic Rod
Bow (could be stolen anyway)
As far as warping into temples goes, all eight can be warped into at some point. Here are the best warp points I've found so far:
Tail Cave: at the Roc's Feather.
Bottle Grotto: at the Nightmare's Key (bracelet can be picked up in doghouse land)
Whatever level 3 is called...: Since you have to get the Pegasus Boots here, only the first three screens can really be skipped. However, one could grab the boots, run back to the doghouse, and warp directly to the boss door.
Angler's Tunnel: For flippers, right at the sub boss door (though you still need to run to a distant key). Also, right through the boss door and directly to the boss.
Catfish's Maw: Since you can't grab the hookshot in doghouse land, you still have to kill all four skeletons. As such, there really aren't any useful warps into here.
Face Shrine: Various locations, some of which are past the sub boss. I'm trying to decide which one is best.
Eagle's Tower: Through the boss door, right to the boss. There is a problem, however: once you grab the instrument, you are stuck in the middle of the outside of the temple. So the Bird Key may still be necessary.
Turtle Rock: right at the Magic Rod, without needing to fight the sub-boss.
You CAN'T warp into the egg, thank God.
In short, at least of half of all the gameplay could be skipped with this glitch. I see where the people who think this would be boring are coming from. However, this run would clearly be a much smaller undertaking than a full non-warping 100% run of the game. Beings that I've never done a TAS before, I've decided that I'll put this run together first, whether or not it has much chance of getting put on the site. If it goes well and I enjoy it, THEN I'll embark on a full, non-warping 100% run of this game.
(If anyone's curious as to how to get any of the aforementioned things, I'll put up a video.)
You should take a look at the maps over here if you are going to do this run. I'm sure it will help you out some =).
Thanks Xkeeper for the link.
...
WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED OF THIS??
Sheesh, and I thought I was actually figuring all this out for the first time...turns out there IS at least one person around nerdier than I am when it comes to this game. Thanks for the link, though!
Anyway, now that I've been informed that the hookshot is, in fact, in the kennel world, I'm running into a big temporal dilemna. Here's how it goes: I always have had to do Tail Cave first, given the importance of its item. Then, given the layout of items in Kennel World, Key Cavern and Angler's Tunnel are the two reasonable second choices. Here was my previous order:
-Get shield and sword.
-Go through KW-4 (kennel world with 4 foes killed beforehand) to get the Pegasus boots, and warp to tail cave, and beat it.
-Go through KW-8 to get ocarina and power bracelet, warp to angler's tunnel, and beat it. Then learn Manbo's Mambo.
-Steal shovel, get killed (I'm not afraid of abusing death, beings I'm already exploiting glitches left and right), then buy some bombs and steal the bow.
-Go through KW-2 to turtle rock, get Magic Rod, and beat the dungeon.
-(other stuff)
Anyway, now I've learned that the hookshot can be obtained in KW-5, meaning that I can probably do Catfish's Maw in under a minute. Here's the catch: it can only be gotten before tail cave, for whatever reason. It's in the chest that appears after killing the mini moldorm, the one that normally holds 20 rupees. It doesn't appear after beating the first dungeon. So, my new route must begin with KW-5 to hookshot, then beating tail cave.
This means I won't getting the boots until sometime after that. To get them, I have to enter KW-4 and then head off to Key Cavern? The question is now: exactly when do I get them?
This ties in with when I steal the shovel and buy some bombs. I need to get the bombs for Key Cavern, to defeat the dondongos. Corollary: I need to bombs before I get the Pegasus shoes. Now, if I steal the shovel immediately after beating level one, I will have to kill four enemies before entering kennel world (the count resets every time you die or restart). This involves walking all the way back down to the beach to where the enemies are and back again - quite a long trek. Alternatively, I could KW-8 to Angler's Tunnel immediately after tail cave, picking up the power bracelet along the way. Then, when I come back to get murdered by the shopkeeper, the walk to the four enemies is to the right, and much shorter. However, this means I'll go through angler's tunnel with no boots. I'm still trying to figure out which one is faster.
Note that the shovel is present in an obscure corner of KW-7. So I could pick it up at some point and negate getting killed by the shopkeeper altogether, with the added bonus of not abusing death. However, there isn't really a good time to do this, so I don't think I'll do that.
If there's a way to get bombs without buying them from the shop, PLEASE let me know.
My second big question is how to go about learning the Ballad of the Wind Fish. Thanks to the link Tompa posted, I know about the Marin's Tagalong glitch. Using this, I could get Marin while still in kennel world 3, warp out and complete a dungeon (probably face shrine or catfish's maw), have Marin sing to the walrus, and learn the song. But KW-3 is a really twisted place and would take a while to get the area where I could pull off this glitch. Alternatively, I could beat key cavern 3 and get the honeycomb from Talon, then get Marin the normal way, saving a precarious trek through kennel world. (Yes, I know I don't have the stick, but I don't actually need it. After you beat level three, Talon takes the stick from you, whether you actually have it or not. So, for a non-glitch run, if there was a way to glitch past the monkey, the entire trading quest could be avoided.) Again, I don't yet know which is faster, and if there's a different way to learn the song, tell me, please.
Lastly, I still can't seem to get Stef's vbm files to play correctly. As such, could someone explain the pegasus boots glitch and the glitched magic powder/bombs verbally?
So, I'm still working out the path of this run. As soon as I get the kinks out, I'll upload a crude video. Once again, thanks, Tompa, you saved my life with that link.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I'm not very good at route planning at all, hopefully Tompa can help you out in that regard... As for the tricks, I've written them up previously on Link's Awakening Tricks, a few with companion animations. If you need a better explanation, just ask and I'll try to be more detailed/complete.
By the way, thanks for the tip about the stick-honeycomb trade... that really saves a large amount of time in the any% run (a minute or more, probably). Good luck with the glitched run - hopefully the run will turn out well.
Wow, thanks, Stef! Awesome guide there. One thing I didn't see: how did you glitch the sword so that you grabbed it while standing at the top of the screen, skipping the owl text?
Also, I forgot one thing that nulls my crisis in my last post: without the power bracelet I get on the way to temple 4, I can't get back to the doghouse after completing level 3 except by the long trek via the beach, adding massive amounts of time. I'm almost sure it's faster to forgo getting the boots until after angler's tunnel, so 1-4-3-8 is going to be my temple order. Also, if I do the arduous Marin's tagalong glitch, I only have to visit Animal Village once, which will surely be quicker than nabbing Marin at the beach. Also, the coolness factor rises quite a bit with this (Marin appears as a ghost, meaning I have two ghosts following me simultaneously). As such, I think this is going to be the fastest order:
-Get sword and shield.
-Kill 5 enemies and enter kennel world.
-Kill the level 1 miniboss (if I don't activate the warp now, the game freezes when I try to go there in the real world). Grab the hookshot and bow and exit at the stairs by the Nightmare door in tail cave.
-Warp to beginning, get two keys and 20 rupees from the Moldorm chest, get Roc's Feather, and beat the temple normally (bypassing the key leading to the miniboss).
-Kill 8 enemies on the path back to Mabe Village (or 7, I don't know if the Moldorm counts as an enemy yet) and enter kennel world.
-Grab the ocarina and power bracelet and exit at angler's tunnel, right by the Nightmare Key.
-Grab the key, go north a bit to the small key there, go around to kill the miniboss, get the flippers, and jump directly to the Nightmare's Door. (I'll waste 5-10 seconds because I have to kill the boss with the sword.)
-Learn Manbo's Mambo and play it.
-Run back to the shop, steal shovel and get murdered. Buy two sets of bombs and steal a set of arrows.
-Go to the field, kill four enemies, and enter kennel world.
-Grab the boots and exit at the ring of gels in key cavern. Get the Nightmare Key, kill the Dodongos, get the two keys by the beginning, the one at the gels, and the one left of the miniboss. Go and defeat the boss. (Alternatively, I could simply grab the nightmare key, warp out of the dungeon, run back to kennel, and warp right to the boss. I don't know which is quicker.)
-Kill two enemies and enter kennel world. Get the Magic Rod and exit at the staircase by it. Kill the miniboss, warp to the beginning, grab a key (still deciding which one), get the nightmare key, and go defeat the boss.
-Play Manbo's Mambo. Kill two enemies and enter kennel world, exiting right at the boss of level 7. Kill it.
-Play Manbo's Mambo, kill 3 enemies, and enter kennel world. Perform the Marin's Tagalong glitch and exit right at the nightmare key of catfish's maw. Go to the boss (no keys or anything required) and kill it.
-Swim to Animal Village, wake the walrus, and learn the Ballad from Marin.
-Warp back to Mabe Village. Kill 4 enemies and enter kennel world. Exit at face shrine (route through this one pending).
-Play Manbo's Mambo. Kill 3-4 enemies and exit at the nightmare key to bottle grotto. get it, get the key by the block switch, and get to the boss. Defeat him.
-Walk from Bottle Grotto to the Wind Fish's egg and beat the game.
If you want, I'll make a crude video of this before starting the actual run. I think shooting for <40 minutes is a reasonable goal, maybe even <30.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I myself don't really understand what's happening with the glitch when picking up the sword from the beach. It's basically yet another application of up/down glitches (I press up/down/b), but the effect doesn't seem to apply to any other situation in the game. It might be possible to pick up instruments this way (since they act in a similar way to the sword on the beach), but Tompa and I never found a way to do it.
I highly recommend that you make a testrun before you start TASing, for a number of reasons. If there's some flaw in the route, you don't want to be halfway through an optimized TAS and find out you have to redo (or come up with some less optimal solution). Also, a testrun will help us gauge the entertainment potential of the run, and hint at how long the TAS will be. It doesn't have to be optimized at all (it can be realtime with a few savestates to undo things like game overs), since it's just demonstrating the route/concept.
By the way, are you still aiming for 100%? It seems like several things are missing from the route, such as the boomerang and magic powder/arrow/bomb upgrades from the bats.
By the way, are you still aiming for 100%? It seems like several things are missing from the route, such as the boomerang and magic powder/arrow/bomb upgrades from the bats.
Oh, yeah, just remembered I'm picking up the magic powder on the way to angler's tunnel. I'll do an unoptimized test run first. Also, if none of you can properly view it, it's probably because I'm doing something wrong with recording/playing and I'll troubleshoot.
The plan is to do a non-warping 100% run after this one, if I enjoy it. Kennel world offers immediate access to all the upgrades, most of the keys, infinite heart containers and secret seashells, and the like. Adding those to this run would add nothing to the entertainment, so I'm just doing a minimalist run, and possibly a non-warping 100% later.
The plan is to do a non-warping 100% run after this one, if I enjoy it. Kennel world offers immediate access to all the upgrades, most of the keys, infinite heart containers and secret seashells, and the like. Adding those to this run would add nothing to the entertainment, so I'm just doing a minimalist run, and possibly a non-warping 100% later.
Yeah, 100% with that glitch is kinda pointless. Seeing it done without those warp-glitches would be very nice, though.
Btw, I've found a small glitch on youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=GWrdkpNRj9w
After you re-enter the dungeon, you can walk through walls.
Do you use DX version or the black-white version?
Alright, the Marin's Tagalong glitch is out, based on the worst lag I've ever seen in a game that happens whenever I do it, as well as the fact that I can't get to an optimal location from KW-3. The only accessible place is angler's tunnel, which I'll have already finished. So, unless I find a good way to combat the lag, here's the new strategy:
After completing key cavern, talk to Tarin and get the honeycomb.
After catfish's maw, go to animal village and take the honeycomb to the bear. Warp back to mabe and get Marin.
After face shrine, take marin to the walrus and learn the song. Then proceed as normal.
Alright guys, I just found myself in for a nasty shock. There's no way to warp into Face Shrine. The quick method in Stef's video doesn't work because it requires warping back to the beginning of the temple. In kennel world, if you warp into a temple and S&Q, you go straight back to Marin's house. I can't find anyway to get through it that doesn't add significant amounts of time. So I'm going to have to reformulate a bit yet again (and start my routing video all over again.)
On my path to angler's tunnel, I'll pick up the face key (adding maybe 3 seconds to the time.) After Catfish's Maw, I'll go get the pineapple, go get Marin, bring her back to the walrus, learn the song, and walk to Face Shrine. I'll beat the temple and Mambo back to the pond. From there, it might even be quickest to walk to Bottle Grotto instead of warping in (something I'll have to figure out.) Then beat that walk to the egg, and win.
Because I don't want to redo the whole movie, I'm going to make an extra trip to kennel world to pick up the face key. It's not something I'll do in the actual run.
Also, on an unrelated note, how do I upload my WIP the same way you guys are doing it?
EDIT: GODDAMNIT, Marin won't teach me the song unless I've already sprinkled Tarin with Magic Powder. God, I hate women.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Use Dehacked's microstorage page if you want to post a .vbm file. Most users at TASVideos (myself included) really like it because it's very simple and easy to use.
Alright, HOLD THE TRAIN! I was wrong. You CAN get the instruments in kennel world, and God knows what else. The entertainment values is going downward a bit, but I'm still going to do this run, just to see how quickly it can be done with this glitch. I have to reformulate my route though, and I'm going to spend some time just exploring kennel world again, since I clearly missed a lot on my first bout of exploration.
Here we go again (and for the final time)...
I think it's probably possible to immediately fight the Nightmares upon entering kennel world. This means my run would turn into a color version of the B&W version with 60 extra seconds of running through the kennel world. Is it worth it to make or watch this? Obviously, at this point, no. So, I'm abandoning this glitched run. I'll go straight for trying to make the 100% run, which it seems more people want anyway.
So, Tompa, thanks for the sequential list. I'll play it a few times and see if I can improve it. I already have one thing: Stef, you said you found a way to glitch past the monkey at Kanalet, but didn't because you wouldn't get the stick. Well, turns out you don't actually need the stick, so can you enlighten me as to how to do that?
EDIT: Meh, Tompa, I can't play your videos either. What's your ROM name, and what version of VBA did you record the 100% video with?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
My file name is just The Legend of Zelda - Link's Awakening.gb
But I believe it's U 1.0.
I don't know which version of VBA I used to record but it plays fine on 1.7.2 V. 19.3.
Quijo (Nowmore Sleepers) found that when he was looking for new tricks for his SDA run.
Here's a failed attempted of it, but you get the idea.
Link makes it out of the water because Tompa had the flippers in the movie, by the way.
Wow...that's genius.
Anyway, recording has been halted due to the fact that I can't record for more than a minute without desyncing. Except, it's not really desyncing. The entire game actually slows down considerably at random times, and stays at that slow speed until I load an earlier save state (though the slowness is still there if I load the same state again.) This desync is often accompanied by the pause screen shaking violently or disappearing completely, replaced by an oddly colored version of the main screen. This can only be fixed by restarting the emulator. The glitchy pause screen is not replicated during movie playback, though the lag is lethal. I'm using VBA 2.0.0, and the rom is 1.1 (U). Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
On a different note...Tompa, due to this skipping the monkey glitch, the route will have to be redone a bit. When am I going to get the several seashells scattered around Mabe Village and the forest, as well as the bomb upgrade and shop materials? Obviously, before dungeon 3. I see two possibilities: either activate the level 4 warp, get all the spoils, activate the Mabe warp and go back to the mountain, or grab all the spoils after grabbing the Slime Key. I think the first is quicker, though I'll look closer at it.
Also, is there any reason I'm missing why I can't do the color dungeon right after dungeon 2? I think it may be faster that way, as it will get through dungeons 3 and 4 more quickly and save me a trip to the beach to get the boomerang (this way, I can get it when I get Marin).
Try reverting to an older version of the emulator? Mine froze everytime I tried to view the bomb-boost movie, so it could be just a version bug or something.
I tried looking up why it won't let you enter the color dungeon, and one FAQ started that any level you've stepped into must have the nightmare defeated. I don't know if this applies to your movie at all, but it's the only thing I can possibly think of to prevent you from entering.
Try reverting to an older version of the emulator? Mine froze everytime I tried to view the bomb-boost movie, so it could be just a version bug or something.
I tried looking up why it won't let you enter the color dungeon, and one FAQ started that any level you've stepped into must have the nightmare defeated. I don't know if this applies to your movie at all, but it's the only thing I can possibly think of to prevent you from entering.
Alright, I'll try 1.7.2 or something. Thanks.
Also, that's not what I meant. I don't know whether or not it's possible to do that dungeon at that time. It's just that Tompa's route has it being done after dungeon 4, probably because it's close to the Mambo warp.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Don't use the 1.1 rom... Use 1.0 in case you haven't got a good reason not to.
Yeah, I'll have to change the route a bit. Shouldn't be too hard I hope.
You have to have the Pegasus Boots in order to enter the Color Dungeon. Or else a message will appear that says you are a weak coward. Whoever wrote that guide has no idea what he/she is talking about.
And yeah, because that the Mambo Warp brings you pretty close the graveyard. It will be too much of a detour to get there earlier and the red tunic won't add that up. Another reason is that it is right after the arrow upgrade. And arrows will be faster to use in there, against the boss for example.
Edit: Getting the boomerang when you are going to get Marin? How in earth is that supposed to be possible?
Link makes it out of the water because Tompa had the flippers in the movie, by the way.
