Amazing, keep going!!
...and please do daily updates :)
Yes, it's amazing. But please don't rush him. He has a lot of other stuff to do.
I understand, but for around a year of my life this was "the game" of all games for me. (I was younger :$)
I'm not trying to rush him, I'm just expressing my extreme happiness that someone is actually attempting a "perfect" speed run of this...Considering it took me I about 7 or 8 months to actually beat the game with no guides or anything. (I got the game when I was around 5 or 6 years old and it took roughly a year to get the sword, never knew the shield could move those spiky things. It actually happened by accident one day, lol. Before that I used to sit at a flower for hours "attacking" it with my shield.)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Could it be faster to pitglitch here, if it works at all, instead of walking around? As it takes some time to switch items twice.
EDIT: Here's something that will save time for sure http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3662/S%26Q%20FTW.vbm
You might save time this way at more places.
Just found out that you can do it at the crocodile, not sure that it is faster though.
EDIT2: Alright! Here's my improved Bomb&Arrow route!
Overworld = 1 bombarrow (19 bombs 19 arrows) for pig.
Kanalet = 4 arrows for Bomb Enemy (15), 1 bombarrow and one arrow (18 bombs 13 arrows) for hidden knight, 2 arrows(11) for ball%chain enemy.
D3 = 3 bombs(15) for mini boss. 1 bombarrow(14 bombs 10arrows) for knightmare key. 1 bomb(13) for the clock bombs, take the bomb refills (16). One bombarrow for wall (15 bombs 9 arrows).
Overworld = Possible double bombset to kill the worm? (13 bombs)
D4 = 1 bombarrow(12 bombs 8 arrows) to blow bombblock.
D5 = New Skeleton Master fight: Do a double bomb set, slash him and let him be hit of the bombs then lay another one. You shall be able to do like that. Saving an arrow is always good:) (9 bombs). Phase 2 and 3: Lay bomb and slash him into it and lay another bomb. (5 bombs). Take the bomb refill after phase 2 (15) Phase 4: Lay bomb, slash him into it and two bombarrows.
(12 bombs and 6 arrows left.).
*No arrow refills after the Face Key*
D6 = Hit the switch, jump and take the arrows in the room with the wizzrobes (16 left).Go ahead and take the bombs on your way to the other wizzrobes (22 left). Do a double bomb set and kill the wizzrobes (20). Hookshot down, go left and kill the rabbits with a bomb (19). Double bombsetting FTW and kill the dodongos (13). Take the nightmare key, jump down and take the chest. S&Q to start. Go and kill the boss, same route as before, and same bosstactic :) (8 bombs left).
Overworld = NEW! This would be faster than switching for the arrows http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3698/Bombing.vbm. One bomb for the fire cave (7 bombs)
D8 = 1 bombarrow (6 bombs 15 arrows) for switch room. Shoot the switch with an arrow (14) 2 bombarrows (4 bombs 12 arrows) needed for walls. 1 arrow (11) for statue to get key. Go down and get the bomb and arrow refills (14 bombs 21 arrows)
D7 = 2 bombarrows (12 bombs 19 arrows) to get to the last pillar.
D4 = Three bombarrows for the fish (9 bombs and 16 arrows).
Last boss = 16 arrows (0 arrows and 9 bombs left in the end).
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Very nice bomb/arrow route! I love "double bombsetting FTW", hehe. I'm thinking that the clockbombs will go down really quickly anyway with a glitched bomb drop, so no need to use an arrow.
That S&Q thing doesn't save time on the Crocodile, but that's another good skip with the pineapple. This is going to be hard to follow even for experienced players :)
Anyway, I finished a midterm today, so I had a long break to finish the second dungeon! As usual, if you see improvements, I am not against redoing the segment to fix errors.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3689/Testrun4.vbm
Major changes:
-PoP throughout the dungeon, saved a ton of walking time and miniboss time. For some reason, the genie boss takes the same number of hits to kill even with the PoP... Another thing odd about the genie is that he takes 4 spinslashes to kill, or 5 regular slashes. Or something weird like that... But I hope I made the genie battle more interesting than before!
(relatively) Minor changes:
-Left torch first, up/right instead of right up, left block first :)
-At least two places where I saved an item switch (for example, the room with the ghosts)
-Yes, the pit glitching worked! Link moves so fast with a PoP, I wonder if pit glitching in other directions is possible, too, with a PoP...
And other things like more precise movement, attacks, etc.
Things you may be wondering about:
-Yes, I KNOW that I move diagonally sometimes instead of jumping... but it's actually faster on those occasions to walk instead of jumping because Link walks much faster with the PoP. In general, jumping was only faster when I had to jump directly diagonally (not just for adjusting my position slightly)
-After getting the bracelet and rupees, it's faster to pick up the extra pot instead of going around, since Link throws so fast with the PoP.
So, all these improvements add up to 2127 frames (43 seconds) ahead of the published run. I really want to break one hour, like you said earlier... I'm thinking 1:10 is about as low as I could get this, more realistically, unless we discover some other crazy sequence breaks. So, 1:10 is my quota for this run :)
Edit: One thing I was thinking about the bomb/arrow route... what if I only used one bomb on the sand worm thing instead of two, then skipped the refill in dungeon 5? If I count it correctly, I won't run into problems with running out of bombs, and I'll have that "perfect use" at the end :)
Edit2: Wait, nevermind, that would make me run out of bombs at the dodongos battle in dungeon 6. What if I skipped the refill in Turtle Rock, then?
Also, I'm pretty sure that using a regular bomb on the rabbits is faster. That would mean two extra arrows at the end. That also means that I could skip the two arrows in the face shrine, and have an absolutely perfect use of bombs and arrows at the end. Did I get all those counts correct? Does that check up with you?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Just find a thing you can do with the magic powder.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3696/MagicPowder.vbm
You can light the other torch from the spot I tried to do it from. But you need to get into "swimming mode", and I forgot order I need to press the keys in =P. I'm quite sure that it won't be faster actually. But it may come in handy at other places. Or else you could do it at the nightmare boss, that would look very nice:).
Anyway, your WIP looks good. I have a few comments anyway:
Why didn't you walk those few frames after opening a chest? You used to do before, isn't it faster? Probably not as you are pressing SSAB as soon as you can, correct...?
In the underground before the miniboss: Woit faster to throw the pot on the platform, and then jump on the edge of it instead of falling?
Wasn't it possible to make the genie appear closer to the door so you could take the heart piece faster?
You'll need to manipulate 8 rupees on your way to the shop... You sure you can do that?:O
Oh, and btw... You are going to the warp after the dungeon so you'll get to dungeon 4 quicker later I presume? Just go there and S&Q.
EDIT: About the A&B route... I'll change it a bit so it is correct. I will also add a thing to the Fire Cave, see the movie=).
The reason why you'll get the bombs in Turtle's Rock is that it's fastest that way. You have to get the arrows, and to get the arrows as early as possible will make you get the bombs too. Check my earlier post for the latest version of the route=P.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Tompa wrote:
Just find a thing you can do with the magic powder.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3696/MagicPowder.vbm
You can light the other torch from the spot I tried to do it from. But you need to get into "swimming mode", and I forgot order I need to press the keys in =P. I'm quite sure that it won't be faster actually. But it may come in handy at other places. Or else you could do it at the nightmare boss, that would look very nice:).
Yeah, remember? I did that in the final battle of the last run :P Nice trick, anyway.
Anyway, your WIP looks good. I have a few comments anyway:
Why didn't you walk those few frames after opening a chest? You used to do before, isn't it faster? Probably not as you are pressing SSAB as soon as you can, correct...?
I guess there are one or two chests where I forgot to move in the right direction afterwards.
In the underground before the miniboss: Woit faster to throw the pot on the platform, and then jump on the edge of it instead of falling?
Hm, there are no pots in the underground before the miniboss. Do you mean before the boss? I tried jumping from the platform, but there didn't seem to be enough room to squeeze through, so I settled for falling a slight bit more. I wasn't that thorough, though, maybe it's possible...
Wasn't it possible to make the genie appear closer to the door so you could take the heart piece faster?
The genie has a set time before appearing again, in one of two places, as you probably know already. If I want to slash the genie at the earliest possible moment for the last hit, he'll either be relatively close to the door, in the position I've been slashing him, or far away, which I don't want.
You'll need to manipulate 8 rupees on your way to the shop... You sure you can do that?:O
Oh, and btw... You are going to the warp after the dungeon so you'll get to dungeon 4 quicker later I presume? Just go there and S&Q.
This is probably the best time to get the warp hole for the 4th dungeon... I believe I can get all 8 rupees between that and in running to the shop. There's the swamp flowers, many patches of grass, several enemies, and a bush just on the way to the shop. It'll just take some heavy manipulation.
EDIT: About the A&B route... I'll change it a bit so it is correct. I will also add a thing to the Fire Cave, see the movie=).
The reason why you'll get the bombs in Turtle's Rock is that it's fastest that way. You have to get the arrows, and to get the arrows as early as possible will make you get the bombs too. Check my earlier post for the latest version of the route=P.
Yeah, I see that you changed the arrows part of it... My question about the bombs was whether we might sacrifice a small amount of time on the sand worm by using only one bomb, then skipping the Turtle Rock refill on purpose. This would give the 0 bombs/0 arrows "perfect" finish. It's just aesthetics, really... It's just that a "perfect use" of bombs and arrows would be entertaining, at least to me, and impressive.
But, when I get to the sand worm, I'll test some bomb combinations and see whether it's worth it to save a bomb for entertainment's sake.
Right now, I'm thinking of redoing dungeon 2 from scratch, only to see whether starting over and being a bit more careful will give me a better result. I can optimize things on a case-by-case basis instead of just saying, "my first three rooms were good enough, so I'll keep them."
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I forgot some things in the previous run... ;D. True, you did that against the boss... haha.
Yes, I meant the underground before the boss, my bad.
I presume it isn't that much slower to only use one bomb against the moldorm. And it would look neat with 0/0 :). So you can do that if you like!
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Heh, I used the magic powder trick twice, and I finished that room 40 frames faster as a result. I used the U/D/L powder to light the left torch, then the D/L/R powder to light the right, when I was in the right positions. I'll edit this post if I have other information, or if I finish the dungeon.
Edit:Okay, here's the new WIP:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3748/Testrun4.vbm
It's only 6 frames faster than the previous version... the improvements totaled up to over a second, but it took about that long to grab some extra rupees. I need only 4 now before the shop. The reason I got more rupees is because I realized that I wouldn't have the sword equipped until well after the shop... so I will need to rely on Bow-wow and the one bush I pick up to supply the extra rupees. I'm not really sure that skipping the 20-rupee chest in dungeon 1 is faster... I've had to waste about 1 1/2 seconds getting rupees... which could probably be cut down to 1/2 or 1 second with absolutely perfect planning. But luck-manipulating rupees out of everything often wastes several frames each time.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Ok, this will make it easier for you to get the rupees you need, no doubt.
I presume you will get rupees from the following places:
1. Flower
2. Moblin at the rock you need to lift near the teleport.
3. Flower again after you S&Q.
4. Bush outside Mabe Village.
Correct?=)
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Yep, that's pretty much the route. Although I'm not sure, actually, that items can appear under lifted bushes... I'll be testing, though.
And one other upcoming improvement (that I'll be redoing): after the boss, don't switch to the feather; save it for the dungeon 2 text when re-entering for the rupees. That will save a second or two...
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Oh yeah, good note. I didn't think about that. Skipping the dungeon text owns^^.
I'm going to test some u+r+d+l glitches now. Trying different combinations. I'm sure there are more ways to run for example.
Looking very good :)
That magic powder thing is insane, I can't believe you can be THAT far away and still get it in those pot things. It is also nice that you are being very anal about the small details. This might end up being one of the best videos EVER on this site if you can break 1 hour. I bet you can do it :)
Btw, what is your next plan of action. What will you be going to/getting? In addition, how do you plan to get the 900 rupee (some amount around there) bow? Do you plan to steal it?
Keep going :)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Themattman: Now he is going to the teleport that's close to lvl 4, so he could easier get to the dungeon later. After that he will save and quit. Going to the village and buy shovel, 20 bombs and yes, stealing the bow.
Themattman: Now he is going to the teleport that's close to lvl 4, so he could easier get to the dungeon later. After that he will save and quit. Going to the village and buy shovel, 20 bombs and yes, stealing the bow.
Sounds good, I can't wait :) Btw, I read the previous submission for the best run, and I noticed the levels aren't performed in the 1-8 order. I know from watching a speedrun of this game that you can do 8 before 7, but you skip 4 until the end. Isn't there something to prevent you from doing this?
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
If dungeon 4 is completed, the ghost appears and won't let you enter the next dungeon until you return him to his "house." With this route, we don't have to worry about returning the ghost, since we'll have completed all other dungeons when the ghost event is supposed to happen.
In Tompa's black and white version walkthrough, the ghost didn't appear at all. But, in the DX version, the ghost does appear. This really scared me when I was working on the first version of the run, since I thought the ghost might not let me into the Wind Fish's egg. This would have required redoing more than half the TAS. Fortunately, there's no issue with the ghost there. So, it makes for another pretty nice sequence break.
By the way, I was thinking about the route... if we could somehow keep Bow-wow until after dungeon 4, then the ghost might not appear, and dungeon 4 could be done all at once. Normally Bow-wow must be left off in the village, since the monkey south of the castle will refuse to build the bridge for you if you still have Bow-wow.
But, I was reading through the SDA topic about the skip with the monkeys - Quijo discovered that you could use one of those bomb-dropper things to blast yourself across the water north of the castle, thus skipping the part with the bananas and the monkeys. My thoughts are that perhaps the golden leaves could be collected early, thus opening up dungeon 3 early (by early I mean without returning to the village). There is a problem with Marin, though... she probably won't follow you if you have bow-wow with you, so we can't get to dungeon 4.
There is, of course, that Pegasus boots "warping" glitch discovered in this topic several pages back. I think that if it was used properly, the walrus part could be skipped, too. But the majority's thoughts on this (mine included) are that this glitch counts as a warping glitch, and thus is not in the spirit of this run and should not be used. I'm just reiterating these points for consideration.
This particular idea I have might not be of any significance, since it might take more time to perform than it saves in dungeon 4. That being said, I think there is potential for more sequence breaks in this game... it's just a matter of how hard we can exploit tricks and brainstorm ideas. Tompa, what are your thoughts on this? Does anybody have any ideas?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
You can get into the castle without leaving the bananas, indeed. But you can't collect all the leaves beacuse you don't have any bombs. And you still have to leave the honeycomb to the bear in Animal Village. And you can't get the honeycomb before you have beaten Dungeon 3 so Tarin appears...
And no, you shouldn't use the pegasus warp. That will cause it as the same category as the select glitch warp run. So I don't think it will be much faster, if it works at all, to keep bow-wow.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Alright, then let's brainstorm for other possible sequence breaks :) All we need is to find some exploit and use it to our advantage...
Oh, and a quick update; I'm currently in the castle, and I've collected the first leaf. No results on how much faster than the published run, since I'll have to check after the warp hole trick pays off. About the rupees, I was only just able to grab the four I needed before the shop. Basically, only certain enemies that Bow-wow eats drop rupees; moblins, swamp flowers, and tektites don't drop rupees from Bow-wow (I could be wrong, but I really tested this, and I never once got a rupee off one of them). I had to detour very slightly in the final cave before the shop to grab an extra rupee from a gel, probably wasted half a second or so. In the future, I think the 20 rupee chest could be skipped, but it would take such a crazy amount of planning to pick the exact enemies and luck-manipulate them that I don't think it's really worth the trouble.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I was fooling around with some L+R etc. glitches... And I found that could actually set as many bombs as you want at once.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3779/Bombglitching.vbm
This could save time probably... By carrying more things at once. I tried if you could kill the dodongos with "one" bomb this way. But he only ate one of them. You could do that on the lvl 6 boss though. But I don't think it will save time as the bombs isn't starting to explode untill you have dropped it.
Which also annoys me is this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3780/Lvl3Key.vbm
Why can't Link be at two place at the same time?:(
*Xkeeper is idly curious at the use of "A" as a name instead of "STEF"...
Beyond that, I watched your latest WIP. I'm not terribly fond of the glitching, but it's certainly weird enough to be interesting, and there's always the normal speedrun at SDA.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Well, choosing "A" as a name over "STEF" saves 20 frames. Not that big of a deal, but there are only two or three times when the player's name comes up before I have to steal the bow. So, I thought it wouldn't really make a difference.
Tompa, I've just collected all the golden leaves, about 47 seconds ahead at this point. But, I've been thinking about your posted "lvl3key" movie and the stuff I tried on the ball-and-chain guy... I've spent a lot of time trying to actually collect the leaf, but there doesn't seem to be anything we can do... Aargh, there has to be a way to do it!
By the way, I could potentially use a glitched bomb-drop on the knight in the wall (instead of a bombarrow), then charge up my sword and hit him just as he comes out. I tested, and it wastes about half a second, but I end up with one extra arrow. Is that useful at all?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I have so far not been able to kill enemies that way... It annoys me because it has to be possible.
When you take the sword from the beach in the beginning, what combination are you pressing? If you could get the sword that way, you have to be able to get other things that are below you, not?
I have been looking through my route very clearly, hehe, and I can honestly not find a way to save time with that arrow =P. You might if you take a look however. If you save an arrow there, it means that you'll have to do two extra switches with items if you wanna use the arrow.
If you use it against the moldorm that holds the 4th key, you have to set a bomb anyway or else you must take the arrows outside the South Shrine, and takes too long.
I don't belive you will save ½ sec to use three bomb arrows against the last Skeleton Master fight either. So... I doubt it's worth it.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I actually did manage to spinslash the knight in the wall, after he was blasted out, while I was still at the top of the room. I tried killing him that way, but the strange thing is that the spinslash did half the damage it should have... as in, I would have to do it again to actually kill the knight. But, I couldn't do it again because my glitched-up spin-slash would hit his sword. But, it's a step in the right direction. I'll do some more testing.
EDIT: Here's something that will save time for sure http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3662/S%26Q%20FTW.vbm
You might save time this way at more places.
Just found out that you can do it at the crocodile, not sure that it is faster though.
EDIT2: Alright! Here's my improved Bomb&Arrow route!
Overworld = 1 bombarrow (19 bombs 19 arrows) for pig.
Kanalet = 4 arrows for Bomb Enemy (15), 1 bombarrow and one arrow (18 bombs 13 arrows) for hidden knight, 2 arrows(11) for ball%chain enemy.
D3 = 3 bombs(15) for mini boss. 1 bombarrow(14 bombs 10arrows) for knightmare key. 1 bomb(13) for the clock bombs, take the bomb refills (16). One bombarrow for wall (15 bombs 9 arrows).
Overworld = Possible double bombset to kill the worm? (13 bombs)
D4 = 1 bombarrow(12 bombs 8 arrows) to blow bombblock.
D5 = New Skeleton Master fight: Do a double bomb set, slash him and let him be hit of the bombs then lay another one. You shall be able to do like that. Saving an arrow is always good:) (9 bombs). Phase 2 and 3: Lay bomb and slash him into it and lay another bomb. (5 bombs). Take the bomb refill after phase 2 (15) Phase 4: Lay bomb, slash him into it and two bombarrows.
(12 bombs and 6 arrows left.).
*No arrow refills after the Face Key*
D6 = Hit the switch, jump and take the arrows in the room with the wizzrobes (16 left).Go ahead and take the bombs on your way to the other wizzrobes (22 left). Do a double bomb set and kill the wizzrobes (20). Hookshot down, go left and kill the rabbits with a bomb (19). Double bombsetting FTW and kill the dodongos (13). Take the nightmare key, jump down and take the chest. S&Q to start. Go and kill the boss, same route as before, and same bosstactic :) (8 bombs left).
Overworld = NEW! This would be faster than switching for the arrows http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3698/Bombing.vbm. One bomb for the fire cave (7 bombs)
D8 = 1 bombarrow (6 bombs 15 arrows) for switch room. Shoot the switch with an arrow (14) 2 bombarrows (4 bombs 12 arrows) needed for walls. 1 arrow (11) for statue to get key. Go down and get the bomb and arrow refills (14 bombs 21 arrows)
D7 = 2 bombarrows (12 bombs 19 arrows) to get to the last pillar.
D4 = Three bombarrows for the fish (9 bombs and 16 arrows).
Last boss = 16 arrows (0 arrows and 9 bombs left in the end).
