Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
It is more of a short-cut or minor route change than a skip, I guess. But it allows on the way towards Springball to take the lower path instead of going around the hill like Cpadolf does in his 100% TAS, at about 43:15 in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqIZbZZeQQ
A sidenote on Game-Time SM TASes:
Even if the Pause Abuse trick to survive at 00 health level (which freezes the IGT at its current value, as long as Samus stays at 00 health) isn't involved, any truely optimized SM IGT TAS would be unwatchable. In order to give an idea as to why this would be the case, I'll gather a few facts:
1. As long as the game is paused, the IGT stops, but RNG still changes, which would mean that the game would be paused whenever a frame-delay due to inappropriate RNG would otherwise be unavoidable.
2. Pausing allows to let the game-play stop while frames keep passing, which allows to buffer inputs that can help to speed up movement. An example would be the following: Normally if one wants to climb some wall via walljumps, the Jump button needs to be released for at least 1 (game-play) frame (which would count towards IGT) in order to be able to start the next walljump, but pausing allows to skip such frames to effectively wall-climb faster IGT-wise.
3. Movement like walljumps happens pretty much everywhere.
Combining those few things (and possibly more that I didn't list), it should demonstrate how ugly and RTA-wise long a movie would be if it would be optimized for IGT, since the game would repeatedly be paused all over the place.
I guess one could add some rules that allow to fix issues of this kind, like a ban of the Start button or just banning pausing, but a rule like this would come with its own restrictions again.
Thus, I conclude optimizing a Super Metroid TAS for I(n) G(ame) T(ime) should be avoided, provided it is meant to be watchable or short, and isn't just meant as proof of concept.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Thus, I conclude optimizing a Super Metroid TAS for I(n) G(ame) T(ime) should be avoided, provided it is meant to be watchable or short, and isn't just meant as proof of concept.
Hallelujah.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
I had an idea for a new TAS route for 100%, but I would like to bounce it off everyone here before I try anything, especially since I have not done any TASing.
This route would be PRKD like Any% Speedruns, but collect Wrecked Ship Reserve Tank, then Grapple Beam, then Speed Booster.
Route:
1. Early game
a. Standard Early game
b. Go up Red Tower, grab both PB packs, then up to Crateria
c. Bomb jump to get Crateria Power bombs
2. Wrecked Ship
a. Doppler Phantoon, clear out the Wrecked ship as normal
b. At Bowling, do the Reserve Tank cutscene skip rather than Robot Flusher
c. Crystal Flash at Gravity suit to get a spike suit. Samus will already be low on health
d. Use wall jumps and the spike suit to get the Wrecked Ship Reserve Tank
3. Norfair
a. Crystal flash spike suit on the elevator into Norfair
b. Go for ice beam and mock ball under gates
c. Get ice missiles, then use the next Norfair elevator spark suit to get to Crocomire
d. Clean up Crocomire area, and return to Business Center, grab high jump boots
(As much as I would love to see high jump room done counter-clockwise starting with a speedball, it's probably slower to pick up High Jump boots the second time through and/or do the room backwards)
e. Hell run for Speed Booster and Wave Beam
f. Enter Lower Norfair like Any% Speedruns
g. Do Lower Norfair like 100% TAS (although without Plasma Beam)
h. Exit Lower Norfair, clean up Bubble Mountain, leave through Frog Speedway
4. Kraid (like 100% TAS)
5. Maridia (like 100% TAS, with spring ball improvement)
6. Final clean up
a. Head back to Green Hill Zone, grabbing X-ray scope on the way
b. Clean up Pink Brinstar and double back to GHZ
c. Clean up Blue Brinstar like 100% TAS
d. After the "Final Missile Pack", detour to the gauntlet
7. Tourian
Edits: Moved X-ray scope from 3a to 6a, also fixed numbering on bullet 3, removed question about ice beam
I'm not a Super Metroid TASer, but I think even if it doesn't turn out faster, your route would be a fun watch.
As far as the Ice Beam, the Mockball is indeed sufficient to clear the gates. I've done it in casual play.
Uhh, I'd be highly surprised if this route would end up faster than the current 100% TAS route. You probably underestimate how much time having speed booster and highjump boots early saves throughout an entire run, just by moving way faster in every single room, but new ideas are never a bad thing.
Also I would change a few things that would probably make the route faster:
1. Instead of cf'ing a spike suit at gravity it would probably be faster to just do a ceiling cf for the reserve tank and then get gravity.
2. I would get Grapple after speedbooster, so ice beam -> highjump -> speed booster -> grapple -> LN as again having speedbooster makes movement a LOT faster, especially in the crocomire area.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
To break a crumble block in a ceiling, a ceiling-CF is good enough, but from what I know, Grapple would additionally be needed to not just clip into but also push Samus upwards past the speed-block to get the R-Tank in Bowling room that way.
Dan's route actually isn't far off from Sniq's routing, but a lot of things would still need to be timed or estimated for comparisons.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am very happy to see this run is finally happening. Hopefully another dual obsoletion from Sniq! I am very intrigued about this new route. Keep up the excellent work!
I haven't compared directly because running lsnes gives me rash, but I see you've gained something like 6 full seconds, an extra tank, and quite a bit more ammo compared to T&K's TAS so far. Fantastic. I'm curious as to whether you have an estimate on final time in mind. Something like 38:20 seems like a given, but maybe you're expecting to save even more?
I suppose you won't be taking any more Energy Tanks other than the High Jump one, or will you be skipping the HJB in this route?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I suppose you won't be taking any more Energy Tanks other than the High Jump one, or will you be skipping the HJB in this route?
I'll actually use the Draygon ammo underflow tech and some other crazy strategies that I've planned. And skip a lot of previously necessary items.
But idea is to do this run without OoB.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I am not sure if a run utilizing the underflow technique would be in the same category as the two existing any% runs, as both of them are essentially glitch free. Once you are finished with this run, would you consider making a run using a similar route as the Saturn/Taco/Kriole runs? With the age of those runs and your ability to find frame savers all over the place, I am sure you would be able to crush the existing times without using glitches.
Yeah, if you submit an underflow any% run first, you'll be immediately institutionalizing it in the branch. An any% that avoids this glitch will never be accepted over it once the glitched run is there, so keep that in mind.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Yeah, if you submit an underflow any% run first, you'll be immediately institutionalizing it in the branch. An any% that avoids this glitch will never be accepted over it once the glitched run is there, so keep that in mind.
Don't worry guys. The TAS will be using completely newly thought route and crazy never before seen strategies. I think people will like it. I wouldn't categorize underflow in the same category as the other major glitches because underflow doesn't make it possible to skip bosses or clip through walls or anything crazy but that's just me.
Also is it important if the TAS gets accepted or rejected? I like to make new any% TAS in this setting regardless of the decision. By the way theres 2 categories about to be cleared out so theres potentially space for more now (2x 14% -> 1x 13%, 2x any% -> 1x any%).
Also I would like to see someone finish the underflowless version that Taco was doing. At the moment we don't have many Super Metroid TASers in the duty sadly.
Also is it important if the TAS gets accepted or rejected?
Well, actually, yes. The reason is that a run accepted as an improvement to an existing category (as opposed to changing or creating a new category) makes its rule set the de facto standard. In other words, it says, "things used in this run are allowed; forgoing them will be counted against you in the future".
Thus, there are two realistic ways an underflow-based any% would be judged.
1. Treat the underflow glitch as major. In this case the run would be rejected for being slower than the current glitched any%. Things will basically remain as they are for the time being, and a prospective Taco route any% would become the new realtime any% and will most likely obsolete the in-game any% as well.
2. Treat the underflow glitch as non-major. This, also, will lead to a double obsoletion, but will not become a new category. The underflow glitch itself will be there to stay in the any% branch pretty much forever because, much like with the GT code, there is no way to outperform it without breaking the game even harder—which we have already done in the glitched TAS.
In such case runners who work on a non-underflow any% under the same ruleset as in T&K's run will have to deal with the fact that their run will likely never be published because they would have to compete in one category with the underflow any%, which is obviously futile, and I expect this to decrease their already low motivation quite a bit. The only way of sneaking a third any% branch in from that point onwards would be to make it completely glitchless, which will very likely invalidate mockball, arm-pumping, jumping through solid ground, slopekiller, and other techniques whose belonging in a glitchless category is a matter of dispute with no easy answers nor convenient resolutions. The entertainment value of a run that omits all the "impure" techniques would be dubious, which, again, will affect the motivation of prospective runners.
As a bottomline, if your run is accepted (and it most likely will be), a run using Taco's route would be unpublishable. So if you want a run using that route to be published at any point, it would have to be done before an underflow run is submitted.
If you want to take a look at how similar precedents were handled in the past, GBA Castlevanias will have you covered. Spoiler: a glitchier run obsoleted a less-glitchier one pretty much every time. Content policy-wise, nothing has changed since.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Intuitively I think the set of allowed glitches should be the same for all the "classical" categories (low%, any%, 100% and RBO), but I don't have a strong preference either way. In any case, I'm very interested in the final result.
I'd say the underflow is not a major glitch, but it is not a minor glitch either, like the ones that have been used in the previous regular any% runs.
Maybe instead of using "Non-Major glitches" it would be better to say that a run that don't go for gamebreaking glitches "uses minor glitches", there's no way the underflow strat can be labeled as a minor glitch.
This is the list of relevant tags currently applicable to the classic categories:
- Forgoes major skip glitch
- Forgoes final boss skip glitch
- Heavy glitch abuse
- Forgoes time-saving glitches
- Foregoes memory corruption
I believe an underflow any% would qualify for all of them except memory corruption; correct me if I'm wrong there. Memory corruption is typically considered a major glitch, and major glitches are intuitively understood as something that bends or even breaks the rules of the game fundamentally. However, in this case, it just provides more ammo than would've been available otherwise; it doesn't grant any new items (unlike GT code), nor gives access to inaccessible areas/enemies (unlike OOB travel, Space/Time Beam, etc.), nor allows game state/event manipulation (ACE, Space/Time Beam).
So in this case the bending occurs but isn't fundamental; in almost any other game nobody would bat an eye at using a glitch like this. It would be a no-brainer for any run category that didn't make it a point to avoid glitches entirely. The only reason it's so important in Super Metroid is that its entertainment value is highly predicated on the route (item collection order, area visit order and the like), and routes in it are highly dependent on the choice of glitches to be used.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I decided to create a test TAS of any% glitched without using the dirty ACE. Cpadolf's pre-xray room 2nd trip strategy was improved by million frames (which is around 4 seconds)
As previously shown during my 13% Kraid drops, the trick is achieved by collecting a health drop same frame as getting damaged, which makes Samus survive any amount of damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JynR_AqODqc
Hello! I watched Sniq's any% TAS (using a new route) and the commentary said something about freezing enemies and hitting them being able to open green gates and saving a super missile. I haven't been around for years so this made me remember a question that was around when I still posted here: has the Red Brinstar green gate entry to Maridia (from the wrong side) been broken yet, or is there a consensus whether or not the gate can be opened from left?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Yes to both questions. The consensus is that it can be opened from the left side only in PAL like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceYDHO82T0k , and that it can in both versions be skipped with the indirect special case of the greyout-glitch that I call indirect G-Mode (such that the room can be entered without the gate even spawning to begin with) and looks like what is done around 25:40 in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXmoMcKuop0&feature=youtu.be&t=1541 .
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Announcement: biggest timesaver glitch ever was found by me in this game after I noticed a weird property in a thing ED (Aran Jaeger) suggested me to test.
Using moonwalk and jumping out of it with following inputs:
1: > X
2: > A
Causes vertical speed to start counting negative, which has no fall speed cap (the usual cap is 5.02048
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19216
If that doesn't impress you guys, take a look at this:
https://puu.sh/wbehR/1bcec12931.mp4
Rest in Peace all Super Metroid TASes 1994-2017
