I know there are already plans to change the name of Moons into something else. This is necessary in order to avoid confusion with how it used to work until its function was changed from being a tier to being a class of movie goals.
Just as a little reminder for people that didn't follow the change: now Moons doesn't indicate superior entertainment value than anything else, instead it just indicates a movie goal that doesn't belong to Standard, whose are fastest completion, full completion, and beat the game without major skip glitching.
I think we should come up with a name that makes it clear that indicates the opposite concept of a Standard goal. My best idea is to call them "Alternative goals", as it implies that they're different from the norm. Some other possibilities could be: Additional goals, Exotic goals, Unconventional goals, Atypical goals.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Probably first we need to figure out what the Demo class will be (named).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I know there are already plans to change the name of Moons into something else. This is necessary in order to avoid confusion with how it used to work until its function was changed from being a tier to being a class of movie goals.
Just as a little reminder for people that didn't follow the change: now Moons doesn't indicate superior entertainment value than anything else, instead it just indicates a movie goal that doesn't belong to Standard, whose are fastest completion, full completion, and beat the game without major skip glitching.
I think we should come up with a name that makes it clear that indicates the opposite concept of a Standard goal. My best idea is to call them "Alternative goals", as it implies that they're different from the norm. Some other possibilities could be: Additional goals, Exotic goals, Unconventional goals, Atypical goals.
feos wrote:
Probably first we need to figure out what the Demo class will be (named).
No. That should not be considered as a matter that could affect how the Moons class should be renamed. It should be only be decided in function of what is the nature of the Moons class itself, and not what the nature of a separate class is, especially if that class doesn't yet exist and probably won't any time soon.
So please, consider my idea of giving a more appropriate name for Moons class. We need to make it clear that Moons is not an entertainment tier anymore, and as soon as possible.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If we call Moons Showcase, and then we call the Demo class Showcase, that would be stupid. We don't want those 2 to be the same thing. If we call them using synonyms that would also be confusing because people would not know the difference. We're closer to having the Demo class that we were back then, and my current proposal is Playground, because it's basically a creativity sandbox.
I don't want to rename Moons to something that consists of several words. If the Demo class is called Playground and it's submission-only, renaming Moons to Showcase feels good to me. If we call the Demo class Showcase, renaming Moons to Showcase as well feels bad to me. The thing with "Additional goals, Exotic goals, Unconventional goals, Atypical goals" is that Playground is also for those, just for super esoteric ones that don't even fit into Moons. And yes Moons will remain an entertainment based class because it's how we accept non-standard goals.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
All right, let's postpone this for later. By the way, I also like the name Playground for the new tier/class/space.
I never really thought of suggesting a name that consists of two words, as the "goal" part is just implied. In fact, a class, like for example Standard class, is just a set of goals.
Just a note before I forget: today a post from Spike game me a great idea for a replacement to Moons name: Miscellaneous (or Miscellanea). I think it perfectly gives the idea of a set of goals that can be literally anything (as long as they're different than Standard class goals).
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Just a note before I forget: today a post from Spike game me a great idea for a replacement to Moons name: Miscellaneous (or Miscellanea). I think it perfectly gives the idea of a set of goals that can be literally anything (as long as they're different than Standard class goals).
Goals that can be literally anything is Playground (quite literally). Moons (or Showcase) is goals that are entertaining and different. Misc feels like what Playground is for as well (SRC calls Misc what we want to call Playground): random community driven ideas. Calling an officially supported, approved, and published class Misc feels bland (almost like the name Moons lol). We want it to sound encouraging!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I have admit you're right. Indeed, Showcase sounds much better than Misc, since Moons still has the main feature of wanting to be entertaining. I'm not entirely convinced, but so far sounds like a very good pick.
I think we need to be careful about picking a new name that unintentionally sounds 'better' than "Standard."
Though entertainment is still a requirement for Moon publication, the purpose of this class is publishing non-standard goals; not to specifically publish runs more entertaining than those available in the Standard class.
While it does sound more exciting than "moon," using "showcase" could unfortunately make it sound like the movies published in that class are better (or deemed more worthy of watching by the site itself) than runs published into the Standard class. This could unfortunately lead some to believe that the "Standard" designation is for runs that the site/community is less concerned about people watching.
In a hypothetical situation where I didn't have any foreknowledge about the site, I'd personally be more drawn to watch something labeled as a "showcase" than something just labeled as "standard."
TL:DR We need to pick a name that identifies the class as non-standard goals, but that name needs to be such that it doesn't make the class sound like a higher tier. We need to be careful that the Standard class doesn't get looked at negatively (or less positively) because of what we choose to rename the current Moon class.
All right, I think it's about time to continue this discussion. I think it's very important, because there are still misconceptions about how Moons stopped being a sort of honorific, and in my opinion the best way to fix this is by changing its name to something more appropriate to its new function.
Before I dive in, I want to point out that the names I've suggested before did include the word "Goals" just as an implied word, because each Class is basically a group of movie goals. In the practice I think that each Class should be called with a single word.
So, let's sum up the names that have been suggested so far:
Additional
Exotic
Unconventional
Atypical
Miscellaneous
Showcase
Beside the name, we'll also need to replace the Moons icon with something different, in order to completely separate it from its past nature. My suggestion is to use the note block from SMW, because in my opinion it suggests the idea of "creativity" of the goal. Also, it comes from the same game from which the Moons and Stars icons come from!
DrD2k9 wrote:
TL:DR We need to pick a name that identifies the class as non-standard goals, but that name needs to be such that it doesn't make the class sound like a higher tier. We need to be careful that the Standard class doesn't get looked at negatively (or less positively) because of what we choose to rename the current Moon class.
I agree. Thinking about it again, Showcase could lead back to the entertainment stigma, which is something that we really want to avoid. For this reason, my preference falls back again to Miscellaneous (or Miscellanea).
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
So far I'm liking "Alternative" the most (or should it be "Alternate"? I'm not english enough to know). Feels the most natural to have Standard class for standard goals and Alternative class for alternative goals.
Exotic/unconventional/atypical = niche goals = Playground.
Additional/miscellaneous feels too formal and empty.
Showcase makes it feel like a tier again, so yeah.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I'm very convinced that publication classes (formerly known as tiers) should be redone as follows:
Stars becomes a flag and then you just have 2 classes:
Standard
Alternative Goals
And I'm very convinced it needs to be "Alternative Goals", as it is clear what it is, without carrying any stigma about being a lesser class of publications.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
adelikat wrote:
I'm very convinced that publication classes (formerly known as tiers) should be redone as follows:
Stars becomes a flag and then you just have 2 classes:
Standard
Alternative Goals
And I'm very convinced it needs to be "Alternative Goals", as it is clear what it is, without carrying any stigma about being a lesser class of publications.
Feels natural to also rename Standard to Standard Goals then. Even tho I still dislike that those are several words, because it makes it more annoying to repeatedly mention in judgment notes and threads as I use to do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
To avoid two-word names we could just pluralize and use
Standards
Alternates (or Alternatives)
Then in judgements the language "Accepted to Standards" or "Accepted to Alternates/Alternatives" could be used.
Thinking about it again, "Miscellaneous" sounds a bit too vague, as it could refer to both the Moons and the Playground movies... So yeah, Alternative seem to work best to me.
feos wrote:
adelikat wrote:
I'm very convinced that publication classes (formerly known as tiers) should be redone as follows:
Stars becomes a flag and then you just have 2 classes:
Standard
Alternative Goals
And I'm very convinced it needs to be "Alternative Goals", as it is clear what it is, without carrying any stigma about being a lesser class of publications.
Feels natural to also rename Standard to Standard Goals then. Even tho I still dislike that those are several words, because it makes it more annoying to repeatedly mention in judgment notes and threads as I use to do.
Maybe we should use add the "Goals" part only the home page, to list the recent publications for the separate classes, similarly on how we used to have two publication lists for Vault and Moons on the old site home page.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I have no problem with wording the class references as "X goals", and explicitly defining the classes as "X is a class for X goals".
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I don't think there is any grammatical problem with "Alternative" as a class name, since it is a noun just like "Standard" is. I'd bug me if one class would have "goals" in it and not the other, and it's cleaner to have both without. Would fit with the demo class "showcase" or w/e as well.
All right, I think it's about time to continue this discussion. I think it's very important, because there are still misconceptions about how Moons stopped being a sort of honorific, and in my opinion the best way to fix this is by changing its name to something more appropriate to its new function.
Beside the name, we'll also need to replace the Moons icon with something different, in order to completely separate it from its past nature. My suggestion is to use the note block from SMW, because in my opinion it suggests the idea of "creativity" of the goal. Also, it comes from the same game from which the Moons and Stars icons come from!
I personally really like this concept, as tiny as it might seem the icons are still tied to their past nature of different tiers and validation of a movie; having a different (besides Stars) unique icon to each class, would help moving past the old concept of tiers.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I'm in approval of renaming Moons. "Alternate" (or "Alternative Goals") seems like a good descriptor to me.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Beside the name, we'll also need to replace the Moons icon with something different, in order to completely separate it from its past nature. My suggestion is to use the note block from SMW, because in my opinion it suggests the idea of "creativity" of the goal. Also, it comes from the same game from which the Moons and Stars icons come from!
I really like this idea.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Makes sense indeed, because if we short it to Alt in casual talk, it does indeed have some musicalmeanings.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
And done! May need some help with updating the wiki tho.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Movie publications by system still talks about Moons (also in the urls), on this page https://tasvideos.org/Movies. It looks good elsewhere I looked tho.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Thanks, fixed!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Since we're there, shall we also add a nice icon for Standard? Just to make sure it doesn't look "inferior" due to the lack of perky graphic. feos always wanted to make some sort of "coin" tier/class, so why not using the SMW coin sprite? It looks good to me because it gives the idea of "regularity" of the goals for Standard.
Moons icon with something different, in order to completely separate it from its past nature. My suggestion is to use the 
note block from SMW, because in my opinion it suggests the idea of "creativity" of the goal. Also, it comes from the same game from which the Moons and Stars icons come from!
It looks good to me because it gives the idea of "regularity" of the goals for Standard.
