This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6057: NhatNM's SNES Prince of Persia in 31:31.48

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this TAS. These questions aren't necessarily for the author, but for the judge/staff to consider.... Is this run using SRAM corruption to access the debug menu (similar to how Valkyrie Profile reaches the debug room)? If that's the case....is it still considered cheating to use the built-in-cheat even though it was accessed in an unintended manner? Or is it acceptable because an unintended method was used to access this cheat? Using an unintended method to access these debug options doesn't seem that far removed from using ACE in a game. However, I still am uneasy about using developer programmed debug/cheat options to beat a game regardless of how they are accessed.

If that's the case....is it still considered cheating to use the built-in-cheat even though it was accessed in an unintended manner?

Maybe this is similar? [1946] SNES EarthBound "check glitch" by pirohiko & MUGG in 09:01.77 used a glitch to access the debug menu, then used the debug menu to skip the rest of the game.

Cheats, including the ones that can be obtained via glitches are acceptable under certain circumstances, but not in this instance. Mainly because it reduces difficulty and overall enjoyment of the run.

Lol, the glitch is amazing. Didnt watched encode but 30 minutes of using an instakill cheat is noz impressive. Conclusions for future TAS: - possible to manipulate starting level (8th) - anything can happen (geg?) - avoid using cheat code directly - theres a pause bug mentioned at gamefaqs

If that's the case....is it still considered cheating to use the built-in-cheat even though it was accessed in an unintended manner?

Maybe this is similar? [1946] SNES EarthBound "check glitch" by pirohiko & MUGG in 09:01.77 used a glitch to access the debug menu, then used the debug menu to skip the rest of the game.

That example seems more like the Valkyrie Profile run that was recently accepted. For reasons that I probably can't fully articulate, I have less of problem glitching into debug to then jump to the end of the game than I do glitching into debug to activate a cheat. But I'll try anyway: 1) Glitching into debug to then skip immediately to the end seems similar to using ACE to skip to the end credits. 2) Glitching into debug to activate cheats and then playing through the whole game using those cheats just seems like an overly complicated way to cheat. If you're going to play through the whole game using the cheat anyway, why not just access the debug menu with whatever method was intended by the developers to access that menu. Now that I've typed that second reason...I don't know if the first isn't also an overly complicated way to accomplish the same thing. Meaning, if you're going to use the debug menu to skip to the end of the game, why go through an overly complicated method of access the debug menu? I think I'm even less sure now whether or not I agree with using these kinds of methods to access a debug menu. I guess my opinion would be best described by the following: If there is a normal method to access the debug menu/room of a game, whether that be a code/sequence of inputs/secret area of the game (that's normally accessible if you know where it's at), I think accessing that debug menu/room with a glitch is mostly meaningless as there is an intended way to access the same. If there is no normal method to access the debug menu/room (because the developers removed the method without removing the menu/room itself) and glitching into the room becomes the only way to access it, I feel that it might be acceptable. I still don't think this should be used to simply activate a cheat, but I feel it could be a valid method of reaching the endgame faster. It's probably something best left to a case-by-case judgement. But if this is a concept that needs more clarification in the rules/guidelines, the conversation has at least been started. EDIT: Sorry for the 'stream of consciousness' typing here....I'm really tired.

This game have password for unlock cheat mode, during game need press some buttons for active cheat menu. But this way I guess will not accept by TAS rules In this my run, this glitch just only unlock kill cheat, don't have cheat menu. Of couse I want use level select feature, but I can't

Yes vote!

Never knew how that "corruption" glitch works different than this one (but made on JP version): http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm29365530 I know that the published run has some mistakes (when I worked at the time, I never considered about the existence of "undetected" lags), but this one, well, I find this kill cheat boring to use, because has killed some entertainment when compared with dodging enemies (at least with me). Also, I don't know how much time were saved for each stage (not including battles), but I noted that some tricks were forgotten: 1 - When turnaround, you need to jump exactly like this (because you need to move first): https://i.imgur.com/TPkfBhn.gifv 2 - Sometimes, it's better going to the wall to stop the movement a bit faster. 3 - On stage 16, in the potion warp room, you should crouch while moving, to faster grab that potion. Also, AkumaAPN pointed on the youtube encode of the published run (some months after the publication), some tips to improve this game, such as: From Stage 17: "If you bring up the "select" menu for a second or two during the Monster's descent, he will start his attack a little bit sooner. As it stands in this video, he hesitates for a fraction of a second, waiting for the musical cue. Using the "select" menu will allow the music to advance slightly, and remove the monster's slight hesitation at the bottom of the stairs." And other: This TAS does not take advantage of one other trick on level 19 to save real-world time. At the beginning of the boss match, you are forced to wait for the lengthy Jafar musical cue, which takes about 10 seconds. Once the musical cue is finished, Jafar will finally raise his hand, and summon the first Guard. Elsewhere in the game, Jafar will not proceed unless this particular music plays itself through. But in this one case, he will proceed after any musical cue. Therefore, as soon as you enter Jafar's throne room, you can hold start + select to bring up the standard sound menu. This later one also works during the "finish stage" fanfare (after entering that exit door). I don't know well if this game can be hex-editable, since there are undetected lags and a nasty RNG change on those deadly flames of stage 11. Also, could be interesting to see a warp from level 8.

well, I know this game but not too good. I had looked your run, try repeat your actions and compare my actions for find best way to do, maybe have something I was missed because I didn't see (hard to see each animation in each pixel). Big optimal I found is just crouch to gates. About tricks without your run, I didn't know that. I'm just do all best I know and I can About glitch help start at lv 8, I think it need some RNG to do, I must tried few times for catch it, but then give up because I can't see images and animations for optimal every actions (not sure it can work in J version, just tested this in U version) Even we had hard workd do optimal in each pixel for every action, but this run still look too boring. I was bored with it. I'll surprise if glitch warp to lv 8 will help do TAS. GL

If that's the case....is it still considered cheating to use the built-in-cheat even though it was accessed in an unintended manner? Or is it acceptable because an unintended method was used to access this cheat?

I asked this exact question on the Ask a Judge forum. Feos' response wasn't definitive, but I agree this should be explicitly addressed in the rules to avoid future confusion.

with my understanding, if we had accepted do glitch for open/active/use/etc any new/secrect/bug/not availe in normal way, then why must reject this? I'm just wondering about after use this glitch, should I use cheat command for open cheat menu?

I updated the rules. The very fact that the cheat code is not used means it is allowed to use the features it provides. The rules only ban use of those cheat codes that give unfair advantage. If unfair advantage is gained by legitimate in-game glitches, it makes no sense to ban them just because they also happen to be hidden behind the code.

could you simple explain? Example how about in my run? How about after use glitch for active cheat access?

I don't know what's happening in your run, might check it out later.

Wait, does the SRAM glitch allow to jump to the last level? If yes, why not doing it?

Sorry my bad english, I'm worry have wrong understanding this

If unfair advantage is gained by legitimate in-game glitches, it makes no sense to ban them just because they also happen to be hidden behind the code.

Example, at normal, must do something A for active cheat aceess, then do something B for get stuff (something I'm meaning maybe is codes/commands/etc, everything developers made it,). Of couse this way isn't allow use in TAS Now, with my understanding, after use glitch for bypass must do something A, I can do something B for get stuff. Of couse if cheat access isn't active then something B will not work

Wait, does the SRAM glitch allow to jump to the last level? If yes, why not doing it?

Yes, what I want here. So, should I remake this?

Haha thanks a interesting example. But I want mean this.

What exactly do you mean by "cheat codes"? TASVideos mostly means secret input combinations that unlock hidden features that give you things like infinite lives. If you access those features without cheat codes, it is okay. If you use cheat codes to access those features, it is not okay. http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#CheatsDebuggingCodesAndArcadeContinuesAreNotAllowed

here's explain If not do red line then green line will not work If do glitch then don't need do red line, judt need do green line If this's ok then I can remake for select last level and done around a minute

Where is this image from?

from gamefaqs: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/588588-prince-of-persia/cheats

If the game or its manual do not give you this information explicitly, then both the password provided there, and the button combination, are banned. The footnote on the Rules page explains that codes are not limited to button combinations:

When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools.

As written in the chapter I linked, those are only allowed if the game or the manual tell them to us explicitly, or if they unlock unique game content, like new levels, modes, difficulty, etc. If all they do is giving you unfair advantage, like infinite ammo, lives, energy, ability to play any level, etc, they are not allowed. So, is any of that mentioned by the game or the manual?