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F-Zero Knight-Grand Prix (Expert Level)

I want to start off by first thanking EdwardFourZero6 and Psicoh for their input on the game mechanics. Although this was one of my top games I played growing up, there were still many things that weren't apparent and was required to produce a movie of this scope. As many people are aware, EdwardFourZero6 is the WR holder of this game in every category and track...except for Mute City I Practice Mode. Psicoh is a top tier runner of this game and was able to provide his views and confirmation on my progress.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/155908609

Terminology

  • Golden Fox - The fastest accelerating vehicle on the circuit.
  • Blue Falcon - The second fastest accelerating vehicle on the circuit, with a little more top speed than the Golden Fox.
  • Wild Goose - The third fastest accelerating vehicle, with higher top speed than the blue Falcon.
  • Fire Stingray (Car of Choice for this TAS) - The slowest accelerating vehicle, with the highest top speed of the available cars for racing.
  • Brown Cars - Also known as CPU RNG obstacles. These cars can be of massive aggrivation and costly of lap times. Usally, they cost anywhere from 1/4 of frame to 2 frames to avoid them. In one situation, 6 frames were lost... but recovered by reTASing earlier parts to avoid RNG for that terrible situation.
  • Super Jet - On the completion of each lap, the driver is reward a super jet, which when used...moves the car from its capped speed to 562 as the highest. It cycles from 562 to 478 for 4.25 seconds.
  • Brake Tapping - Refers to a technique, for when super jets are used, to gain greater speed by manually cycling the speed back up to 562 as fast as possible. This is done by braking at a certain speed to eliminate the lower part of the super jet speed cycle so that your car is running at speeds on the top end more. The result, is about 4 frames cut per lap.
  • Blast Tapping - Refers to when the accelerator is released to allow your car to make tighter turns. This coincides with a slippage value and prevents it from reaching the maximum value. Basically, it keeps your car stuck to the ground and prevents you from loosing traction and thus keeping your speed up.
  • Wall Tapping - This is a term that I came up with, that is used to help cycle the super jet speed correctly so that the timing is fixed to maximize the use for when traversing dirt of borders.
  • Practice Mode - The game offers a player the ability to race a single track. This usually is accompanied by the selection of an opponent. The choice of your opponent can determine greater speeds...in most cases, Golden Fox is used to get the highest speed boost and used most often.
  • Grand Prix Mode - The game is normally played with through one of three leagues...known as Knight, Queen, and King leagues. This TAS features the first league.

Tools Used

  • Lua Script (For determining optimized inputs on turns and super jet usage during brake tapping, creating car placement values for determining if changes were moving me ahead of behind, and vectoring...since it was near impossible to determine with precision where you are headed)
  • RAM Watch (The need for super jet timing, subpixel placement, and speed changes)
  • LSNES Emulator

F-Zero TASing

I have to say, that I believe the reason why no TAS has ever been produced of this game yet...is the extreme dedication that it takes in order to produce high quality times. So far, we have never seen a full Grand Prix TAS yet...until now. During the making of this, I can completely understand the reason now why this never happened before. During the 5 months of TASing, there were times that I wanted to give up. The idea of cleaning up and optimizing was so painful that I had to walk away from it at times and do something else...perhaps for days. After a number of months, where I did nothing but lua script and ram searching...I finally figured out what it took in order to make this TAS beyond human capability.

Track Details

Mute City 1 (1st Track of the Knight Grand Prix circuit)

1st Lap: Best effort is to use Blue Falcon for a double speed boost, since a Blue Falcon/Wild Goose boost is about 15 frames slower at the finish line. It is also worth noting that it is impossible to use the Golden Fox for speed boost here, as it is too far to the right to reach. Lastly, the ramp is used to get my speed up to 478. By the time we reach the finish line, we cross so close to the checkpoint that my frame count is 1 less than I had hoped for...which causes the next lap to be 1 frame longer...but the end result is the same.
2nd Lap: Right after the finish line, the Fire Stingray cuts a corner where it gets hit. The drop of speed is acceptable, since the space it cut is easily made up before the next turn and worth the effort. Here also starts the use of my first super jet where we cut the dirt to quickly get going again at high speed...taking advantage of a larger part of the track being cut without the effect of losing speed.
3rd Lap: Same as 2nd
4th Lap: Same as 3rd
5th Lap: Changes up a bit on where the super jet is used. Basically, it is used as in the same manner as Legend's RTA Practice run...called cutting the dirt. Mainly, because it would be a waste to be speeding across the finish line with extra speed. So, we take it back a bit and use it through the dirt.
Finish Line strategy: Since this TAS was designed for Real-Time, coming in 2nd place allows us to cut time from the celebration cut scene. In this case, it was about 60 frames eliminated.
End Results:
TAS EdwardFourZero6
0'25”86 0'26”30
0'23”12 0'23”25
0'23”04 0'23”26
0'23”04 0'23”24
0'23”58 0'24”12
Total
1'58”64 2'00”17

Big Blue (2nd Track of the Knight Grand Prix circuit)

1st Lap: Same situation applies here at 1st track. The need of double speed boosting from the Blue Falcon.
2nd Lap: Super jet usage starts, and is able to cut borders at high speed while not loosing that speed.
3rd Lap: Same as 2nd lap
4th Lap: Same as 3rd lap
5th Lap: Same as 4th lap
Finish Line Strategy: Same concept is used to come in 2nd place, although the cut was around 40 frames...probably because of the straight away being longer to deal with waiting on the 2nd place driver.
End Results:
TAS EdwardFourZero6
0'27"61 0'28"53
0'24"77 0'25"01
0'24"76 0'24"97
0'24"77 0'24"96
0'25"42 0'25"91
Total
2'07"33 2'09"38
  • Note: The frame count was the same for laps 2,3, and 4...but because of the game timer, it alternates between 1/100 and 2/100...giving a alternation of time.

Sand Ocean (3rd Track of the Knight Grand Prix circuit)

1st Lap: Same situation applies here at 1st track. The need of double speed boosting from the Blue Falcon.
2nd Lap: Super jet usage starts, and is able to cut borders at high speed while not loosing that speed. Wall tapping is used through the dirt to cycle the speed of the super jet to time the capped speed from being slowed as the car traverses through the dirt.
3rd Lap: Same as 2nd lap
4th Lap: Probably showed up where car avoidance costed 1 frame.
5th Lap: Same as 4th lap
Finish Line Strategy: Same concept is used to come in 2nd place, although the cut was around 35 frames...probably because of the straight away being longer to deal with waiting on the 2nd place driver.
End Results:
TAS EdwardFourZero6
0'30”51 0'31”20
0'27”44 0'28”11
0'27”43 0'27”72
0'27”45 0'27”82
0'27”45 0'29”36
Total
2'20”28 2'24”21
  • Note: The frame count was also the same for laps 2,3, and 4 (as in track 3)...but because of the game timer, the same situation applied to the differences of times.

Death Wind I (4th Track of the Knight Grand Prix circuit)

1st Lap: Death Wind has a strong right crossing wind, which aids for the use of the Golden Fox for speed boosting. This led to a second boost by the Blue Falcon, and to be followed up with by the Wild Goose.
2nd Lap: Super jet usage starts, and is able to cut borders at high speed while not loosing that speed.
3rd Lap: Same as 2nd lap
4th Lap: Same as 3rd lap
5th Lap: Same as 4th lap
Finish Line Strategy: Most speed runners don't take 2nd in this track, because the cpu is too far behind to catch up for forcing a 2nd place finish. However, because we are able to predict the CPU's behavior...I was able to cut 7 frame off initially, but figured out that slamming into a brown car would keep the CPU closer to me and provided 15 frames cut! My speed was so dramatic on this track, that the Wild Goose was almost overlapped.
End Results:
TAS EdwardFourZero6 Edwards TAS
0'22”66 0'23”32 0'22”78
0'20”15 0'20”24 0'20”16
0'20”14 0'20”23 0'20”16
0'20”15 0'20”37 0'20”16
0'21”27 0'21”45 0'20”16
Total
1'44”37 1'45”61 1'43”42
  • Note: The frame count was also the same for laps 2,3, and 4 (as in track 3)...but because of the game timer, the same situation applied to the differences of times. Edwards TAS was shown for comparison on the optimization level of my inputs.

Silence (5th and final track of the Knight Grand Prix circuit)

1st Lap: Same speed boosting as used in tracks 1,2, and 3.
2nd Lap: Super jet usage starts, and is able to cut borders at high speed while not loosing that speed. Car avoidance costed two frames here.
3rd Lap: Same as 2nd lap
4th Lap: Same as 3rd lap
5th Lap: Same as 4th lap
Finish Line Strategy: Nothing special here...just needing to finish the TAS by crossing the finish line at the high in-game time possible.
End Results:
TAS EdwardFourZero6
0'24”49 0'25”27
0'21”57 0'22”43
0'21”54 0'21”91
0'21”54 0'21”75
0'21”56 0'22”11
Total
1'50”70 1'53”47
Nach: Judging.
feos: Wikified. Sorry if you preferred the completely broken version.
Masterjun: Removed the 0 byte moviesram.srm file from the lsmv (to remove the SRAM error on this submission).
Nach: This was a nice entertaining TAS. It correctly aimed to complete the game as fast as possible, skipping bonus recognition. Just like in Super Mario Bros. fireworks are skipped, and in Super Mario Bros. 3 three of a kind stars are skipped, this skipped the first place fanfare for each level. Overall fastest speed requires some sacrifices in the earlier levels, and this TAS did exactly what TASs should do.
I find making separate TASs for each of the circuits to be acceptable. I am accepting this run as an improvement to the existing incomplete one.
feos: Pub.

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Posted: 7/4/2017 4:21 AM
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nymx
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@c-square Thanks. It was one of the highlights of the last track that I wanted to get right. Look for more when I do Queen's Grand Prix. I'm sure I'll get one that is really more amazing.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/4/2017 8:00 PM
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hopper
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Finally! I've been waiting years for a proper F-Zero TAS!!! Love the huge jump in Silence. Looking forward to the Queen and King Leagues!
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 7/5/2017 12:28 AM
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nymx
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@hopper Thank you so much. In regards to your enthusiasm for the next releases, I've already been working on them. I'm actually really excited about this, because there are many TAS only tricks to be shown. The first league just didn't have enough spots for me to work with.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/5/2017 1:29 AM
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hopper
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I forgot to mention that I enjoyed your commentary in the Twitch video. Out of curiosity, how different would a run in Master difficulty be, or would there be no noticeable difference in a TAS? That would, of course, require start from a save state.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 7/5/2017 2:26 AM
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nymx
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@hopper Thanks. I do enjoy streaming my work. It's also fun to participate with so many others in trying to find the absolute end of a game, in every aspect. In regards to Master level (stating if an sram was allowed) it would only help with speed boosting from the cars. Each level that you increase, the cars relative acceleration is slightly more. So then end result would be a faster first lap and perhaps an increase in random cars popping up. That is my guess, but i can't really show an example to prove it.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/5/2017 5:46 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
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Wouldn't master also mean the AI rubber bands more tightly, so finishing in second is faster?
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Posted: 7/5/2017 10:46 AM
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nymx
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@OmnipotentEntity I'm not really sure about that. Even with the RTA run of this game, according to EdwardFourZero6, no runner takes the chance in coming in 2nd place on certain tracks. So, Master may not make the cars stay closer to the 1st place runner. I've even noticed this on Death Wind 1...where the difference was 7 frames saved, but being very,very precise to execute a 2nd place. I was fortunate enough to have a brown car in the way to help out there, which turned it in 15 frames saved. That might be a clue to how hard it must be for master to "Rubber Band" the cards near the finish line. But, thinking about that...It might be true....even for a tiny bit.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/6/2017 1:53 AM
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hopper
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This was the first SNES game I owned, other than Super Mario World. I played the crap out of this game until I had beaten every league on Master. It's a real treat for me to see it analyzed and pwned so thoroughly.
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Posted: 7/8/2017 9:20 AM
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Warepire
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Personally, I find a racing game TAS where you come in second (even if this is overall faster) to not be very entertaining. The main entertainment for me is to see by just how much the AI is left behind. Well done TAS, but I voted no.
Posted: 7/8/2017 9:25 AM
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fsvgm777
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Personally, I feel that a F-Zero TAS (or any racing game TAS) that only completes one cup instead of all of them is more like a WIP than a full game TAS. I'm not going to vote.
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Posted: 7/8/2017 9:51 AM
(Edited: 8/11/2017 3:04 AM)
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Spikestuff
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Coming in second, and only doing a single cup. This is a bit of a bum rush of a TAS especially when we have: [1126] SNES Super Mario Kart by cstrakm in 21:27.02 [3243] N64 Mario Kart 64 by Weatherton in 20:33.32 [2392] N64 Micro Machines 64 Turbo "All Courses" by Weatherton in 23:51.37 [3386] PSX TOCA Touring Car Championship "max points" by Noxxa in 10:30:25.84 That drained out everything that could be done. I'm going to vote Meh on the terms of entertainment.
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Posted: 7/8/2017 2:41 PM
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nymx
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@Warepire Thanks for you comments. I certainly spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to squeeze everything out of it. Coming from the Super Metroid community, we tend to think in real-time for than game time, since it is more accurate and forces the use of more skills that wouldn't be seen in an IGT. But, with F-Zero, EdwardFourZero6 and I discussed that real-time might be the best option...although I do like the fact of seeing the faster "last lap" times. After submitting this, I was made aware that there are now 3 different ways to do this now: 1. Real Time (Fastest Credits) 2. Real Time (Fewest inputs) 3. In-Game Timing Now...what to do now...we'll have to figure that one out.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/8/2017 2:45 PM
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nymx
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@fsvgm777 Thanks for you comment. Being the first full TAS of a completed segment has certainly been a discussion. Some think it is completed when you see credits...some thing...why not the whole game? As for WIP...we'll see what happens. This will certainly determine the course of the rest of this TAS.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/8/2017 2:52 PM
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nymx
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@Spikestuff Thanks for you comment. Since there is no previous F-Zero TAS to compare this with, it became a discussion as to how it would be received as a League TAS. We thought that this might be an any% (Credits Reached), whereas all 3 leagues could be a 100% (The mastering celebration). So, being the first one...we knew that there might be differences of opinions. I am certainly interested in the opinions of TASVideos in order to know how to proceed. As for entertainment, I can understand the first league not offering much, but the excitement certainly comes from the Queen and King leagues...as there are many TAS only tricks to be demonstrated.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/8/2017 3:04 PM
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Warepire
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nymx wrote:
I am certainly interested in the opinions of TASVideos in order to know how to proceed.
Possibly a weird question, but why not ask for our opinion to begin with if your goal was to submit here? (Also, we're not twitter, we do have quote buttons, and you're allowed to answer several people in the same post, actually, we encourage that)
Posted: 7/9/2017 7:35 PM
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electricslide
Joined: 1/27/2014
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First up, great TAS, really enjoyed it. That being said, I think the category should be low glitch (for no use of the pause glitch), and (speed/entertainment tradeoffs), to finish first in every race. Even if it is faster to finish second in real time due to cutscreens. Slowing down just to get passed by the AI? Meh. I have no problem with a submission with just the Knight league. TAS videos has broken videos up before with different games. I would have no problems with publishing this now and then having it obsoleted later with the full run. That way TAS videos gets the benefit of having both up.
Posted: 7/9/2017 7:43 PM
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nymx
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electricslide wrote:
First up, great TAS, really enjoyed it.
Thanks. It certainly was a shock to see how much effort it took in order for this to occur.
electricslide wrote:
I have no problem with a submission with just the Knight league. TAS videos has broken videos up before with different games. I would have no problems with publishing this now and then having it obsoleted later with the full run. That way TAS videos gets the benefit of having both up.
This makes sense, since the previous TAS for this game is a single track. I would definitely think the next step is to provide the entire 3 leagues...provided that this gets accepted. In addition, it seems that the majority of postings reflect on the creation of IGT...which will take time to convert over. :( But, I don't think it is a complete loss.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Posted: 7/9/2017 8:40 PM
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Noxxa
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nymx wrote:
If this is not the case, then TASVideos should not have published a Practice Mode round by Saturn as a "Beaten Game".
nymx wrote:
This makes sense, since the previous TAS for this game is a single track.
I just want to note here that this previous F-Zero TAS was published in 2005, was dubious even then, and in the next decade and then some TASVideos never accepted any further single track TASes. If it were submitted today it definitely would not have been accepted. Do not take its existence as if it holds any precedent or is relevant for any current publication rulings.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 7/10/2017 12:40 AM
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Spikestuff
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nymx wrote:
If this is not the case, then TASVideos should not have published a Practice Mode round by Saturn as a "Beaten Game".
There's a massive difference between TASVideos in 2005/6 and TASVideos in 2017.
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Posted: 7/10/2017 1:33 AM
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hopper
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Warepire wrote:
Personally, I find a racing game TAS where you come in second (even if this is overall faster) to not be very entertaining. The main entertainment for me is to see by just how much the AI is left behind. Well done TAS, but I voted no.
You can't actually leave the AI behind. Unlike Mario Kart, where you can see where everyone is on the track and even lap opponents, in F-Zero the AI cars are always a short, fixed distance behind you (the "rubber banding" everyone was talking about), so they overtake you if you make a single mistake, even when they couldn't possibly keep up with you based on your top speed and theirs. It's impossible to gain any significant ground on them, which is why it was possible to drop to second by slowing down a little at the finish line. This game is all about beating the track, not the AI.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 7/25/2017 4:27 PM
Post subject: Movie published
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TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [3479] SNES F-Zero "Knight League" by nymx in 12:16.89
Posted: 7/25/2017 4:37 PM
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Challenger
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Well, since this run was accepted and published, I now agree with that routes/strategies. Looking forward for other leagues, someday.
My homepage --Currently not much motived for TASing as before...-- But I'm still working.
Posted: 7/25/2017 9:55 PM
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evknucklehead
Joined: 3/3/2010
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hopper wrote:
It's impossible to gain any significant ground on them, which is why it was possible to drop to second by slowing down a little at the finish line.
While mostly correct, it's clear by the run of Death Wind 1 in this submission that it is almost possible to overtake the 4th place opponent, as we can see the Wild Goose in the distance as we approach the finish line. You can also catch glimpses of it in places while the times are being listed after Silence. That does make me wonder, what happens if you pause glitch like the video Natt linked to but stop before crossing the finish line on the final lap? How long would it take for the other car(s) to catch up? I'm guessing the game's thread in the SNES section would probably be a better place for that question, though.
Posted: 8/11/2017 2:59 AM
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Memory
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Joined: 3/20/2014
Posts: 1765
Location: Dumpster
GBA TASer of 2020 GBA TAS of 2020 GBA TASer of 2019 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018
Spikestuff wrote:
Coming in second, and only doing a single cup. This is a bit of a bum rush of a TAS especially when we have: [802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62 That drained out everything that could be done.
Biker Mice from Mars submission text wrote:
Why did you choose to play only the one round (five tracks), and not the entire championship? An entire championship consists of 30 tracks. This would mean, the TAS would be 30 to 40 minutes long. That's very long, I think, for a racing game. It would also be a ridiculous amount of work, TASing 30 tracks. After each round, you get to see an ending movie. The points are reset. A round is perfectly comparable with a "cup" at Super Mario Kart. However, in this game, there are only five themes: City, Islands, Sewerage, Circuit and Fortress. Each of the 6 rounds features the exact same 5 themes.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Posted: 10/18/2017 3:22 AM
(Edited: 12/2/2017 2:22 AM)
Quote
TheCoreyBurton
He/Him
Joined: 10/14/2013
Posts: 335
Location: Australia
Here are some extra encodes of this run. Higher resolutions are based on the game's native resolution and are scaled at 2x, 3x and 4x respectively: Direct Downloads: 10bit444 MKV: 224p, 448p, 672p, 896p Compatibility MP4: 224p, 448p, 672p, 896p Torrents: 10bit444 MKV: 224p, 448p, 672p, 896p Compatibility MP4: 224p, 448p, 672p, 896p To download the direct download links, you may have to right click on the link and select "save link as" (this option may be named differently depending on your web browser).
I'm not as active as I once was, but I can be reached here if I should be needed.
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