Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
So this has been a thing for years now, and TAStudio is slowly outrunning TASEditor in the amount of its features. As its current developer, I always apply my personal needs that rise from actual TASing, as well as user requests that don't sound insanely complex.
But one question keeps bugging me, ever since AnS released TASEditor 1.01: how many people are actually using it, how many will use? How many started from it and don't want to learn the traditional way of TASing? How many switched to these tools from the latter?
It's also odd that TAStudio still has no manual, so all of its features users mostly find by trial and error. But partly it's because we already have a manual that covers most of the essential features of such high level TAS tools. It's the TASEditor manual AnS wrote, it lucidly covers its features in their entirety.
http://www.fceux.com/web/help/taseditor/
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I mostly use TAStudio now, but I started with TASEditor. I eventually figured out the traditional way, but I really struggled trying to understand the whole changing recording/read-only and loading state thing. I had a hard time visualizing what inputs were in the movie and what was saved that way. That stuff much easier to see with these tools.
I started "traditionally", then used TASEditor/TAStudios. Lately, it's mostly TAStudios since I haven't touched a NES game in a while.
Certain things I still mess around manually is strategy testing, making tool-assisted test routes, and long segments of moving. Same applies for TASEditor.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1943
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I never use any of them. If I want to edit a file, I either open up the file in a text editor, when possible, or use the TAS Movie Editor. Mostly because I'm not used to use it and like my traditional way of TASing.
Personally, I've never really tried out either TAStudio or TASEditor. I've been meaning to try either of them out for a while now, but old habits die hard.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I've tried TAStudio out a few times, and never could really get into it. Due to the way it's set up, it's too intrusive into the process to really allow a smooth transition from one method to the other - you're effectively forced to stick with one or the other (I've heard lsnes' movie editor is more of a middle ground, but I rarely use lsnes so that's not seeing use for me either). So, I'm sticking with what I'm most used to (and which I prefer anyway), the traditional method.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I learned how to TAS through TAStudio. I use it whenever the system I'm currently TASing is covered by bizhawk.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Personally when I do runs with Bizhawk, I generally try to sync as good as the previous movie file. But when I'm starting a new TAS of a game there hasn't been something to work against, then I prefer to use game controllers for inputting control data so I can use my keyboard hotkeys to advance the game frame by frame.
Enjoys speedrunning, playing and TASing Oddworld games!
Has TASed:
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee in 12.06.13 (with Dooty)
Oddworld: Adventures II in 20.03.78 (with Dooty)
Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus 100% in 2:08:28.4 (with Dooty)
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee 100% in 1:05:01.65
Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus in 37:18
Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus in 37:15
Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus 100% in 2:!5.44.12
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee any% in 13:01.3
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee any% in 12:59.95
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee 100% in 1:04:16.27
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee 100% in 1:04:01.07
Currently working on:
Waiting for Windows TAS Tools to work so I can TAS PC version of Exoddus.
it's too intrusive into the process to really allow a smooth transition from one method to the other - you're effectively forced to stick with one or the other (I've heard lsnes' movie editor is more of a middle ground, but I rarely use lsnes so that's not seeing use for me either)
I don't like and don't use TAStudio/TASEditor for the same reason.
That's why I, for one, would like to have a Movie Editor (a not-TAStudio).
Quick clarification:
By Movie Editor I mean a feature like the Hex Editor or Ram Watch, which does not interfere with any hotkeys or anything it isn't supposed to, and which you can open at any time and close after you're done editing.
The Movie Editor would only be able to edit inputs which are after the current frame in the movie (so to preserve those, you'd have to be in read-only and load a previous state).
(Basically how it works in lsnes)
No greenzoning, no lag adjustment, no branching, only good old hex editing, except not in a text editor but in the emulator.
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
I´m always using TAStudio for my TAS works, it really helped me when i started TASing.
It gives me a really good overview of what´s happening in the game at the moment and I find it easy to use ( maybe because I started TASing with it and never came in the process of original TASing methods - if I can call them like that ).
2-do:
Smurfs Nightmare, The (EU) GBC 10%
fin :
Mega Man: Dr. Wily's Revenge improvement: submitted
Mega Man II Improvement: submitted
Mega Man IV Improvement: submitted
Mega Man V Improvement: submitted
future plan:
-n-
Maybe I didn't get TAStudio yet, but I only use when I have to.
I need to see the previous inputs when I am TASing. Editing future inputs is nice, like lsnes' movie editor, that doesn't break the normal way to load savestates, like Masterjun said.
When I'm not using this tool, I use something like this:
User movie #26845843171757705
I just don't see how TAStudio is more productive or reliable while optimizing. I might be wrong because I didn't persist in trying very much.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Spikestuff wrote:
I prefer TASEditor
Why?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I TASed very little a NES game, trying both TASEditor and TAStudio, and didn't feel much difference. I can't tell which one of the two I prefer.
By the way, I only use BizHawk to TAS and I always use TAStudio. I couldn't live without, it makes everything simpler my making me see all the inputs for every frame.
Also, I have to note that it is mandatory to use it when you need to manage very complex input patterns, in my opinion.
I wanted to start by learning TAS Edit, but it wasn't really functioning back then, so I switched to traditional method, but when TAS Editor came out I stopped using the traditional method, unless it wasn't NES, but with TAStudio I basically never did any traditional TASing.
feos wrote:
Spikestuff wrote:
I prefer TASEditor
Why?
It has more functionality for input drawing, alt+lmb patterns, shift+lmb drawing. Alt+mousewheel for skipping sections. Functioning lag adjustment. Better branch overview and better control for branches too. In TAS Editor it's one click for updating into any branch, in TAStudio it's two clicks for updating into a branch that isn't current branch, same for loading.
Amaraticando wrote:
I just don't see how TAStudio is more productive or reliable while optimizing. I might be wrong because I didn't persist in trying very much.
You may not see benefits using a tool that you're hardly familiar with. And most people who use TAStudio or TAS Editor don't even use it's full potential in the first place.
Mothrayas wrote:
Due to the way it's set up, it's too intrusive into the process to really allow a smooth transition from one method to the other
In TAS Editor you can do that, in Config enable "Old control scheme for branching" and disable "Branches restore entire movie", additionally you can disable greenzoning. It now works like the traditional way.
When making most of my TASes on FCEU, I prefer using TAS Movie Editor, because I'd like to keep it simple: opening a movie file, changing the inputs of some frames, or copying new inputs to another movie file to replace some frames.
But when TASing on BizHawk, I'm forced to use TAStudio, which I've never been comfortable with, because I don't need to create any projects or playing the movie from the beginning, I just want to change some frames...
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Definitely use TAStudio. Although, I'm pretty new to TASing, my first experience doing so was on DeSMuMe (Fire Emblem). While I was pretty comfortable text editing there,that was primarily due to it being a strategy game with (mostly) static RNG and also a general lack of frame dependency on inputs.
With games that are more action oriented, like platformers, or even RPGs with fast-moving RNG, things become much more cumbersome in the traditional approach due to trying out different patterns in the middle of a movie being a huge hassle (have to keep on opening text file to hex stuff). I'm really glas TAStudio exists!
On BizHawk, I started using TAStudio for THPS2, and I really like using it. For emulators that don't have something like TAStudio, I just use a controller with specific hotkeys bound.
I gave TAStudio a try at one point (since Hetfield90 was very supportive of it) but it crashed a few too many times (taking all the greenzones with it) and I eventually stopped using it.
I may use it later when I try working on a new Mega Man 7 100% TAS, but not until then.
I used the traditional way for several years, only using TAStudio to correct early mistakes and resync the movie, or to copy/paste inputs. I looked again at TAStudio for DTC6, and when 1.12.0 went out, I used it for everything and liked it a lot. There are still things that annoys me (saving takes a lot of time and breaks the flow, sometimes it looses previous savestates and must play from the beginning again), but overall I think I save time using it than traditional way. I never tried TASEditor.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
keylie wrote:
saving takes a lot of time and breaks the flow
Increase state gap. Someday we'll mode to disk states and obsolete greenzone limits as well as saving it do disk every time.
keylie wrote:
sometimes it looses previous savestates and must play from the beginning again
Set markers to frames where you want to preserve anchor states. They won't be removed per reaching greenzone cap.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I mostly use TASEditor on FCEUX. (I have not used BizHawk for TASing so much)
TASEditor keeps me away from trivial mistakes, and it helps a lot especially in laggy games.
But I think its most cool feature is bookmark (branching). Even with "traditional" method, you will have to compare several "branches". So, I think TASing emulators must have built-in branching feature.
Yeah, I second this, especially on games where your time save is determined heavily by RNG (like JRPGs) and a branch that is a few frames ahead of another is not necessarily better because of upcoming RNG differences.
