Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
This is just like the Special Stars thread, except this one's for discussing changes between Vault and Moon tiers. If you see a Vault run that you think deserves to be upgraded to Moon, or vice versa, then post about it here. If you suggest a Moon movie be downgraded to Vault, then it has to qualify for Vault: No playarounds, no arbitrary categories, no sports games, to name a few guidelines.
For reference, here's all the Vaulted movies on the site, organized from highest to lowest rated: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-Vault-RatingY.html
I'll start with, what else, Hydlide. This was a huge topic of debate around the time it was published, with a lot of people (myself included) thinking it was entertaining enough for Moons. It makes an unplayable game look entertaining and fast, and with AVGN exposure from way back in the day, I think it needs a bit more of a presence on the site without having to languish in the Vault. The rating's still quite good, too, and there are plenty of Moons that are less entertaining than it.
EDIT: Also, should we elect someone to handle these tier changes? A Moonkid to go along with the Starman, perhaps?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 8/14/2014
Posts: 188
Location: North Kilttown
I would nominate the GnG run but I do believe that an improvement is in the works so it could be moot depending on what the improvements look like. I'm kind of surprised to see it in the Vault, though. It's an infamously hard game made to look easy using arguably the hardest weapon to use for a large chunk of the game. I understand that "the Arcade version is preferable" was Adelikat's reason, but that shouldn't detract from the NES version in this case.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
TehBerral wrote:
I would nominate the GnG run but I do believe that an improvement is in the works so it could be moot depending on what the improvements look like. I'm kind of surprised to see it in the Vault, though. It's an infamously hard game made to look easy using arguably the hardest weapon to use for a large chunk of the game. I understand that "the Arcade version is preferable" was Adelikat's reason, but that shouldn't detract from the NES version in this case.
Yeah, an improvement is being worked on. I wouldn't be surprised if the improvement is bumped up to Moons upon being judged, it definitely deserves it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Samsara wrote:
I'll start with, what else, Hydlide. This was a huge topic of debate around the time it was published, with a lot of people (myself included) thinking it was entertaining enough for Moons. It makes an unplayable game look entertaining and fast, and with AVGN exposure from way back in the day, I think it needs a bit more of a presence on the site without having to languish in the Vault. The rating's still quite good, too, and there are plenty of Moons that are less entertaining than it.
It has an entertainment rating of 5.8, not exactly what I would call "quite good". I'd have to see around one full point added to that before I would consider moving a run from Vault to Moons.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
That's if you can count the votes as accurate. Are people voting on the game or how the TAS plays the game? Also are they voting it down because it is in Vault and therefore should get a low rating?
Oh crap, now I'm depressed. My Club Penguin run is 5.2, there's no way it can get Moons now...
Speaking of which, there was a Moons run with a 5.0, I think it was Tecmo Bowl by adelikat, I'm not sure.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Mothrayas wrote:
It has an entertainment rating of 5.8, not exactly what I would call "quite good". I'd have to see around one full point added to that before I would consider moving a run from Vault to Moons.
That's fair, though I think it's a bit high.
I'm convinced that Vaulted movies get much lower entertainment ratings in general simply due to the fact that they're Vaulted in the first place. Even particularly entertaining runs that got pushed there during the Vault's implementation tend to get lower scores than most would think they deserve. It seems like a psychological thing: You're already going into watching the run thinking that it's not going to be entertaining, so you focus on what people aren't finding entertaining about it, meaning you're more like to come out of it in agreement.
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but after having quite a few discussions on post-publication rating I feel like we can get away with promoting Vaulted movies with 6+ Entertainment ratings as long as people post sound reasons behind why they think those movies deserve promotion.
Also, looking at Hydlide's votes in the submission thread, it was unanimously Yes: 82%, which is above the 80% "strong majority" suggested in the Judge Guidelines. I'm aware that this could have happened after the tier decision and the votes might have been a little less positive, but it's still another metric to consider for other potential tier promotions.
Kurabupengin wrote:
Speaking of which, there was a Moons run with a 5.0, I think it was Tecmo Bowl by adelikat, I'm not sure.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Anyway, as for what movie I would like to see a moon upgrade, that could be Fester's Quest, Flashback and Over the Hedge "any%", those look solid enough runs, at least for me.
I think this could be a good idea. Along the same line of thought, might I recommend a thread for Gruefood/Vault Tier changes? With a GrueDude to complete the triumvirate. I nominate #1493: Bisqwit's DOS Star Control II in 35:03.50.
I think this could be a good idea. Along the same line of thought, might I recommend a thread for Gruefood/Vault Tier changes? With a GrueDude to complete the triumvirate. I nominate #1493: Bisqwit's DOS Star Control II in 35:03.50.
If you read the submission topic, you'll notice that, starting from this post, it's very difficult getting the TAS to sync. In fact, it doesn't even sync for the author of that TAS anymore, so I dare say that nobody can get the TAS to sync (which is a requirement for judging and publishing a movie).
In the discussion thread for the Hydlide submission, the yes votes were almost unanimous before the decision was made. There was only 1 meh to 9 yes, and most of the yes vote posts, 6, mentioned entertainment.
As for the poll results, I noted in a post the day after the decision was made that it was at 89%, so it being at 82% now would be correct, and it would have been above 80% at the time of the decision.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Samsara wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
It has an entertainment rating of 5.8, not exactly what I would call "quite good". I'd have to see around one full point added to that before I would consider moving a run from Vault to Moons.
That's fair, though I think it's a bit high.
The reason it's a bit high is because if we're going to shuffle around tiers for movies, I'd want to do it only for cases where there is a good consensus for the tier change and where it is not just a very borderline case. Otherwise you get cases where movies can keep going back and forth across tiers depending on whatever people feel like on the day. It's not the imo-minimum to be a Moon at all, it's just where it can be less ambiguously considered a Moons-worthy run.
And I personally don't buy any arguments about Vault movie ratings being biased to be lower just because they're in the Vault, at least not without any sort of evidence. Without that, I just see empty rhetoric crafted for the purpose of defending this movie and a few others.
For me, Hydlide was just boring to watch, and I based that on watching it before any of us knew for sure what tier it'd be in. A good majority of judges also agreed at the time that it had to go to the Vault (based on entertainment merit we collectively saw in it, instead of voter feedback). About half of the rating audience still seems to agree, having given it a below-par entertainment rating. I'm going to need to see better rating numbers than that before I really believe that the 80ish% of submission yes votes was actually indicative of people finding the run entertaining on a whole.
Kurabupengin wrote:
Speaking of which, there was a Moons run with a 5.0, I think it was Tecmo Bowl by adelikat, I'm not sure.
Yeah, to clarify on this: if you are going to suggest a movie to move to the Vault, ensure that it Vault-legible. The Vault's rules are strict, and movies that do not fit into the Vault ruleset will default to Moons even if they were somehow published with poor ratings.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
And I personally don't buy any arguments about Vault movie ratings being biased to be lower just because they're in the Vault, at least not without any sort of evidence.
That's confirmation bias
Of course, it works either way. People who think it should be in Moons will see more proof for putting it in Moons, i.e. will be more generous with the ratings.
I see the point for >80% yes votes, but imo the submission poll isn't something to base the tier on completely. It's there more to help the judge make a decision, especially since most people look at it as a "should this be published" poll. The Hydlide TAS being a big improvement skews the poll even further, considering if there's a run already, and it got improved by so much, of course the run should be published.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Anty-Lemon wrote:
That's confirmation bias
Of course, it works either way. People who think it should be in Moons will see more proof for putting it in Moons, i.e. will be more generous with the ratings.
Confirmation bias is rating a run lower in advance because you believe it belongs in the Vault, not rating a run lower because it is in the Vault, which is the argument presented. Confirmation bias itself indeed goes both ways - those who believe it should be Vaulted will be more inclined to vote lower, and those who don't will be more inclined to rate it higher. Since the ratings are still roughly evenly split for Hydlide, it ends up balancing out.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Isn't it well-understood that people base their judgements of something at least in part on how other people have judged that thing? That's why you aren't allowed to see the poll results until after you've voted, after all. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if a person who is rating a movie after it has been published will be influenced to some extent by where that movie was published to.
Thus I would expect that the same movie, published to the Vault, would receive lower entertainment scores than it would if published to Moons.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
I was surprised to learn that there currently are ZERO windows games in the Vault.
Windows TAS'ing is still relatively new, and I believe that in the initial excitement for the new platform, people were more eager to vote yes on Windows submissions than they would be for other platforms. However, the Windows platform also has a metric ton of developers, and numerous game design toolkits exist that make it very easy to create platform games in particular.
So based on their current ratings and the relatively low production value on these games, with all respect to the creators of the respective movies, I believe that the following should be moved from Moon tier into the Vault.
Since the goal of is to Moon tier provide impressive and high quality TAS movies, well, these movies are techincally sound but as examples for the Windows platform they are just not that impressive.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I just wanted to state that I do not believe being in the vault results in runs being rated lower, and I see no evidence of that.
I do however, see that being in the vault might be leading to less ratings.
So based on their current ratings and the relatively low production value on these games, with all respect to the creators of the respective movies, I believe that the following should be moved from Moon tier into the Vault.
Noo I'm going to cry!!!
...actually no, I think Spyman should probably be vaulted. No opinion on Syobon Action. I think Nikujin is a sweet TAS though, would go to bat for that one.
As for me, I think [891] NES The Karate Kid by nitsuja in 03:09.12 should probably be in Moons, but I may be alone on that.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Isn't it well-understood that people base their judgements of something at least in part on how other people have judged that thing? That's why you aren't allowed to see the poll results until after you've voted, after all.
So the link below the "Submit vote" button has eluded you for the past 8 years? :P
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
Isn't it well-understood that people base their judgements of something at least in part on how other people have judged that thing? That's why you aren't allowed to see the poll results until after you've voted, after all.
So the link below the "Submit vote" button has eluded you for the past 8 years? :P
Doesn't clicking that link bar you from voting? I thought it did (and it should).
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Isn't it well-understood that people base their judgements of something at least in part on how other people have judged that thing? That's why you aren't allowed to see the poll results until after you've voted, after all.
So the link below the "Submit vote" button has eluded you for the past 8 years? :P
Doesn't clicking that link bar you from voting? I thought it did (and it should).
It doens't, and even if it was enforced, there are other ways to bypass the system (log out so you can see poll results, for example.)
Bah, okay. That's technically a bad idea because like I said, people will adjust their votes based on what the community is leaning towards (even though votes are anonymous), but the whole voting system is of relatively low utility anyway so I doubt it's worth trying to fix.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
