This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4888: Fortranm's DS Chrono Trigger in 6:16:21.87

Claiming for publication, and dying. Also, Congrats on easily destroying the longest DS TAS

[1835] PSX Final Fantasy VIII by DarkKobold in 8:08:32.98 [1805] PSX Breath of Fire III "best ending" by janus in 7:45:01.17 [2022] PSX Final Fantasy IX by Lil_Gecko in 7:37:12.28 #4888: Fortranm's DS Chrono Trigger in 6:16:21.87 [2339] SNES Chrono Trigger "completionist" by Saturn in 5:44:58.18

78.5 gigs later. Dumped, synced, gosh damn. Also just a question, unless this gets mentioned in the details. Credits Sequence happens twice, is this due to something that occurs in the first that doesn't happen in the second? Edit, Enjoy a Secondary Encode: Link to video Top & Bottom, Side by Side and not vertical. Just low resolution, 'cause I don't want to die/make you all suffer waiting for a full length.

Congratulations on being the 2nd TAS where the any% is longer than the 100%.

What was the first?

Megaman X?

Congratulations on being the 2nd TAS where the any% is longer than the 100%.

Since any% is by definition the shortest percentage, "any% longer than (x)%" is by definition impossible. It just means that the any% is 100% in that case.

Also just a question, unless this gets mentioned in the details. Credits Sequence happens twice, is this due to something that occurs in the first that doesn't happen in the second?

The run aims at defeating Dream Devourer. The prerequisite of facing Dream Devourer is completing all three Dimensional Vortex dungeons, which do not appear until Lavos is defeated at least once. Unfortunately, after defeating Lavos, you can't save the game and continue without watching the entire credits sequence. It sucks, but there's no way around. Five minutes are probably not too long for a six hours movie though.

Congratulations on being the 2nd TAS where the any% is longer than the 100%.

As I just explained, the goal of the run is to defeat a super-boss after defeating the original final boss once. It's a kind of similar to the Pokemon GSCHGSS runs that aim at defeating Red after defeating Lance for once. Therefore, the any% I defined for CTDS is different from the any% for the original game on SNES. I completed another set of new optional dungeons as speed-entertainment trade-off as well.

This should be considered a different game.

I think the goal needs to be nailed down a bit. Even if not, it would be grounds to be obsoleted by any run of similar quality that has a more clear defined set of goals.

Unfortunately, after defeating Lavos, you can't save the game and continue without watching the entire credits sequence. It sucks, but there's no way around. Five minutes are probably not too long for a six hours movie though.

Alright, makes sense. Thanks for that.

I think the goal needs to be nailed down a bit. Even if not, it would be grounds to be obsoleted by any run of similar quality that has a more clear defined set of goals.

Agreed. At the moment, there's very little written about the run itself and it's almost entirely schizophrenic. The goal is the fastest to defeat the Dream Eater, except for glitches that seem hard to use and seeing some but not all of the extra stuff along the way?

I see sometimes in battles, he didn't have critical hits, have some reason?

Few reasons I can think of for not scoring criticals. 1. He didn't need the extra damage for a kill, so not having the extra animation from a crit saved time. 2. He wasn't able to manipulate the RNG in such a way that getting the crit would save time.

Holy Mother of time, I'm downloading this beast and finding time to watch it. Will hold vote till I finish riding the Delorean.

Few reasons I can think of for not scoring criticals. 1. He didn't need the extra damage for a kill, so not having the extra animation from a crit saved time. 2. He wasn't able to manipulate the RNG in such a way that getting the crit would save time.

Chrono Trigger doesn't cycle its RNG over time. It only changes when you do an action and I think (although am not certain) that it uses a very long seed list (or formula based on a seed) generated at game load, so the only way to really manipulate luck is to load the game, which takes way too long to be useful. Which isn't to say no manipulation at all is possible. eg You can let the enemy attack on a 'bad' value and then take the next 'good' one for your own action. Critical hits work in a similar way, so much so that they can be manipulated in real time runs to get them when you want them. Notice the save-load here at 1:18:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUZwVE4Rco That's to ensure Ayla's critical hits on on the boss at 1:21:20 Again, not sure if the DS version is different though.

Since any% is by definition the shortest percentage, "any% longer than (x)%" is by definition impossible. It just means that the any% is 100% in that case.

Any% is just how much of the game was completed. Example: A game has 10 levels and 10 optional treasures per level. If the player completes with less than 100 treasures, the game shows a lengthy "bad ending" sequence (e.g. shows unskippable tutorial screens) before requiring the last possible input. If the player completes with all of them then the game shows a rather short "good ending" sequence. All "100%" TASes would end up with a shorter completion time than any "any%" TAS.

Since any% is by definition the shortest percentage, "any% longer than (x)%" is by definition impossible. It just means that the any% is 100% in that case.

Any% is just how much of the game was completed. Example: A game has 10 levels and 10 optional treasures per level. If the player completes with less than 100 treasures, the game shows a lengthy "bad ending" sequence (e.g. shows unskippable tutorial screens) before requiring the last possible input. If the player completes with all of them then the game shows a rather short "good ending" sequence. All "100%" TASes would end up with a shorter completion time than any "any%" TAS.

any% doesn't mean necessarily 'lowest %'. If it is faster to collect every treasure than to avoid some of them, then collecting every treasure is both any% and 100%.

What Bruno and Moth said is correct; "any%" = "fastest%", or, to expand, "whatever percentage of collection, etc., is needed for the shortest run". It can't be longer than another category by definition (although I guess we made up the "game end glitch" category as an exception). Thus a 100% run that also doubles as the fastest available run is technically any% as well, it's just that the any part equals to 100.

Giving this a No. If the goal of the run was to beat the Dream Devourer as quickly as possible, then you shouldn't be doing any sidequests. If the point was to show off as much of the new content as possible, why not do a DS 100% run? It would certainly have enough differences to justify its own branch. Also glossing over the Arena Duplication glitch is a gigantic oversight. Simply speaking, it allows you to duplicate any item your monster brings back. So for example a Power Capsule can be duplicated to x99 very easily. Doing that would have skipped any and all grinding and sped up a ton of fights. If this does get published, then it should certainly be a new game category altogether. 'Best Ending' would probably be the best choice.

The TAS shows off 2 endings, Ending 2 and... Ending 13: Dream's Epilogue (DS, iOS and Android exclusive) Method: Start a New Game Plus, finish the encounter with Lavos in the Ocean Palace, finish the Dimensional Vortex in all three time periods, talk to Gaspar, then use the bucket Gate to travel to Time's Eclipse and defeat the Dream Devourer. Alternativaly, you can finish the main game and reload your save after defeating Queen Zeal (Boss) in the Ocean Palace, allowing you to use the gate inside of Lavos' shell (if you saved there) and flying the Epoch to the Dimensional Vortex in 12,000 B.C., 600 A.D., and 1000 A.D. You still need to use the bucket Gate to travel to Time's Eclipse. This ending is a preview of Chrono Cross. The Dream Devourer is actually Lavos after having absorbed Schala. In the fight, Magus will appear, but the Dream Devourer will brush him aside. Schala will come to her senses, telling him that he will need something more than might to defeat it. Schala opens a portal in space-time, flinging Magus through (presumably to 1020 AD) and wiping his memory. From the Chrono Wikia. This would have it's own category and if you complain about it being longer than it should since it goes for an exclusive ending go splice Cave Story. Edit: Also, TASVideos, legitimately has a category called Second quest/Post game-completion.

This version of CT is probably the best one for a almost glitchless run, since most of the glitches from SNES ans PSX versions are gone. So I made one. ... The arena duplication glitch seems hard to be manipulated and will break the pace of the run so I avoided the Arena as a whole.

This entire section doesn't make sense to me. You say it's "almost" glitchless, which implies that there are glitches being used, and yet you pass up a major, DS-exclusive glitch that could potentially shave an hour off the run? I don't really understand that. On top of that, the primary goal of defeating Dream Devourer in the fastest time doesn't make sense either since there are optional sidequests being done, which means it's not done in the fastest time... And yet, it already wasn't being done in the fastest time due to the exclusion of a major glitch in a run that apparently uses them. This was all brought up in the thread before, so it really needs some major clarifications from the author.

Chrono Trigger doesn't cycle its RNG over time. It only changes when you do an action and I think (although am not certain) that it uses a very long seed list (or formula based on a seed) generated at game load, so the only way to really manipulate luck is to load the game, which takes way too long to be useful. Which isn't to say no manipulation at all is possible. eg You can let the enemy attack on a 'bad' value and then take the next 'good' one for your own action.

Most games have RNG depend timer. Next, depend game values (example make defend/attack or use item). I'm not sure how about in this game because I didn't test In this run, it's not bad, but I see he waste much time for make more normal attacks without critical hit. Maybe change RNG not possible...

the extra quests being done and the glitch exclusive being forgone is kinda bad,but i believe the run should stay until somebody proves it can be done better with the arena duplication,he said the quests and grinding were necessary to kill the dream devourer and dungeons before it.

Yeah. I have to make a clarification about the branch and the goal choice at this point. I apologize that I haven't done this earlier. Like I mentioned earlier, Dream Devourer's role in this game is like Red's role in Pokemon G/S/C/HG/SS. They are super-bosses that the player faces after the credits are rolled for at least once, and the credits roll again after they are defeated. When I say that the run aims at defeating Dream Devourer, I'm trying to clearify when then run ends. I think defeating Dream Devourer should be considered as the goal even if it's a typical, pure, any% run just like how Johto Pokemon games runs aim at defeating Red, even though the credits do roll after defeating Lance. Now let's get to the tricky part. First I'll talk about how I got the idea of doing what I did in the run. I borrowed many strategies from [450] SNES Chrono Trigger by hero_of_the_day in 4:21:11.83 and [2339] SNES Chrono Trigger "completionist" by Saturn in 5:44:58.18 for obvious reasons, and I made comparisons about them a lot.. One thing suprised me is that the 100% run is actually a little faster than the obsoleted glitchless any% run by the time the team gains access to Epoch with wings. Apparently Saturn's run has much more optimized strategies than the ten years old run does, but this fact also shows that getting tabs during the first half of the game helps a lot. Subsequently, the first three hours of a glitchless any% run won't be much different from a 100% run on a scale of... well, three hours. Then I thought about how different would a 100% run on DS be from the one on SNES. I guess they share the same content for the first four hours, at least. I came to the conclusion that it's not really worthy to make a 100% run on the DS version if they are not very different from each other untill very late in the run, not to say that many people would probably prefer the one on SNES due to its classicness. I wondered if there is a way to showcase the extra contents on the DS version without making the run look too similar to Saturn's 100% run. Now I'll talk about why I skipped Arena completely. The reason is simple. It's a minigame that breaks the pace of the game. A run that abuses the duplication glitch will look like this:

Crono wakes up and leaves home. He decides to save his process of adventure and reset the game at the first instance after he steps out of the door. About 15 seconds later, Crono appears in Arena. He picks a strange creature and sends it to a time period for training. He saves the process and resets again. He meets a girl at the square, goes into 600AD, and meet a frog. About 10 minutes since he resets last time, he dicides to reset again. Back in Arena, he finds about his pet got a power tab. He duplicates it for 99 time by going back and forward on the menu, and then goes back to his adventure, until he resets for another time 10 minutes later...

In response to arandomgameTASer and Samsara, I'm almost sure that duplicating tabs can't help you skip any and all grinding and shave an hour off the run. Even if you max out characters' strength, magic, and speed before going to End of the Time and being able to face Lavos for the first time, you won't stand a single chance. Without enough grinding for level up or the buffs from late game armors. I admit that duplication do save time on the long run, but grinding or doing some of the side-quests is still inevitable to increase defenses and learn important techs. The three main new features of CTDS are Arena of Time, Lost Sanctum dungeons, and Dimensional Vortex dungeons. As I mentioned above, Dimensional Vortexes have to be completed to face Dream Devourer; Arena of Time is a minigame that's not really part of the regualar gameplay in essence, and it makes the run less interesting IMHO. So, how about a run that completes all quests in Lost Sanctums? Lost Sanctums have a very strict quest system. You literally talks to NPCs and choose YES to start a quest, and you talk to the same NPC to get a reward in the end. A shop will provide many exclusive goods after you finish the last quest, and this marks the offical end of plots in these dungeons. It's probably the most obvious and well-defined side-quest in the whole game. Another fact is that many Lost Sanctum-exclusive armors are the best ones you can get before defeating Lavos. They do help a lot during the Lavos fight. A run that completes both Lost Sanctum dungeons and Dimensional Vortex dungeons will virtually features all the new dungeons in CTDS, in other words, all the new features of CTDS other than a minigame. I thought such a run would be interesting and not way-too-arbitrary on the goal choices. I know it's not a strict any% run. Maybe it can be named DS%? I suppose there won't be another run of this game in a short time so I guess it's not that much of a problem if this run doesn't get a branch name for now. Now comes the explaination for the term "almost glitchless." There are only two glitchess in CTDS that are actually useful. One is the duplicaiton, a major one. Another one is a very minor one: you can overflow the HP of Dream Devourer. It's similar to elixer glitch from orginital CT, but you don't actually need a gltich to do the overflow. Dream Devourer has 32000 HP, and the signed 16-bit integer limit is 32767. You can simply do a powerful magical attack on Dream Devourer during the second phase of battle to over flow it's HP. The only thing I did since the beginning of the fight is using Frog Flare for four times in a row. If this phenomenon is a glitch at all, it's the lowest degree of glitching in this game. To summarize it, this main difference between this run and a strict any% CTDS run is that this run completes Lost Sanctum sidequests, because it's one of the two new dungeons in CTDS, and skips Arena of Time, because it's a minigame. There are some minor tradeoffs toward the end of the run like getting the best DS-exclusive armors and weapons even though they don't really save time at that point, but those are really minor actions on a scale of six hours. If this run needs a brach name, I think it should be ether "DS%" or "all reptite quests" for the reasons I explained above. Again, since this is the first speedrun of any kind for CTDS, it's probably not too prolematic to leave the brach name blacnk for now. Sorry if this comes too late. In presonse to the questions about RNG, the FATE luck is not really on your side in this game, as Tangent explained. You can't make your characters crit and enemies miss on every term.

Chrono Trigger doesn't cycle its RNG over time. It only changes when you do an action and I think (although am not certain) that it uses a very long seed list (or formula based on a seed) generated at game load, so the only way to really manipulate luck is to load the game, which takes way too long to be useful. Which isn't to say no manipulation at all is possible. eg You can let the enemy attack on a 'bad' value and then take the next 'good' one for your own action.

To add a bit more information, RNG for criticals cycles only when someone from your party is doing an attack. It doesn't cycle when you are doing a Tech or an Item, or when an enemy is doing an action. Also, RNG values comes from a lookup table hardcoded in memory, and the initial index into that table is determined at game startup by the amount of time you spend in the window where you choose your save slot to load. If you have no save slot, this window does not appear and the index is set to 0. So the only way to change the critical RNG is to save and reload, or to change the outcome of the previous battle. All of this is for the SNES version though, I don't know about the DS version.