Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Since 2008, Deign's run has been improved in both actual gameplay and in memory corruption (which it also has), so it's not entirely optimal at this point. And in terms of entertainment and difference, the thing we haven't had in a while is a "no memory corruption" run of MM1. Memory corruption is the technique that leads to the heaviest glitches in MM1, and some people feel like they've had enough of those over the years, which is exactly why Sonic "no zips" is there: it's the heaviest glitch in Sonic, and it feels over-used to some people.
So the best approach with MM1 seems to be a new run, using a "no memory corruption" branch.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
Regarding the memory corruption, are you talking about Wily 2 at 12:15, where Mega Man jumps all over the screen? That's the only thing that looked sus to me.
I'm told that it's Cutman's scissors persisting when you skip the boss room. They overwrite Mega Man's coordinates.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I know.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Obsoleting 2565M led to an issue where we have five published runs of Link's Awakening (DX) and zero runs of the game in full.
TwistedTammer is making a 100% TAS of LADX, so a run of the game in full is going to happen.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
There was a concern about skipping a ton of enjoyable content, with comparisons made to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. However, this did not seem to be a common sentiment and personally, I'm ok with how drastic the difference is between this TAS and previous ones. This TAS feels much more superhuman than previous efforts.
If there's a lot of support for it being its own branch, we might tweak this.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Thank you. I didn't know that about linking movies.
There's no reason not to delineate. Server space can surely afford one or two more runs of certain games, especially when the game frankly has more runs than it should to begin with.
- ACE (fine)
- Screen warp Glitch (now obsolete by ACE which also uses this glitch)
- Doghouse glitch (DX) (always obsolete, but only warp/ACE method for DX, ACE run in non-DX uses this glitch too)
- Playaround (fine)
- Out of bounds
It looks baffling that there's no actual playthrough of LA. Objectively, nothing about the current OoB run (#4017) obsoletes the one before it since it's, again, objectively, a different branch. Whereas we have at least one run that ACE obsoletes but coexists with. I'm iffy on the Doghouse glitch one even being up for DX but it's technically a different game and as such its only form of warping or ACE (it isn't, just lining out a point here) should be allowed too.
For the record, I would support coexisting 100% and any% no OoB runs of LA and LADX, even if it is terribly redundant, for the same reason.
But ACE definitely obsoletes screen warp since it even uses it as part of the setup.
No Out of Bounds (any vector to enter a wall or dense object unintentionally which sends you to a new screen or area unintended to be in for normal gameplay, usually it "rejects" you out of one of the sides and you warp into a new room) really needs to be a category for a good many games---Zelda is one notable instance. It doesn't remove any instances of superhuman feats, it still allows a lot of showing off. That's kind of the point---it does let you show off.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 235
Location: United States
ACE definitely obsoletes screen warp since it even uses it as part of the setup.
While ACE may be the fastest completion, they usually consider it a separate branch around here. You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Now that we accept runs that forego major skips as standard, we're going to be looking at obsoleted runs, determining whether or not they qualify and returning them to publication if they do.
For a quick explanation, the definition of "major skip" is intentionally vague so as to allow a lot of wiggle room for what counts. Different games can have different definitions of what constitutes a major skip, which is generally determined by the people who know the game well. As long as a run is agreed to not use any major skips, and is otherwise fastest completion (sorry zipless "all souls", I tried ._.), it should be allowed.
If you come across any obsoleted run that you think does not use major skips compared to a published run that does, post it here and we'll take a look at it! Note that we will be doing a manual pass of obsoleted submissions in the future, but with the new rule in place I'd personally like to take on any suggestions people have now.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Well, I was asking if there was any note left that I couldn't find... Indeed, if there isn't any, we can't know. But in that case, it could be decided now, if either keeping it this way or removing from the obsoletion chain, and in that case, leaving an explanation for future reference.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Depends on where you tried to find it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Oh. Yes. The actual judgement note. Yeah, my bad.
Still, that's a very old judgement and I think with today's standards these should be considered as different games, and get the old movie removed from the obsoleted chain. I'm not asking it to happen, I'm just pointing out that it could be the case.
I'm also wondering this other movie should be reconsidered out of obsoletion, despite the judgement of the movie that obsoleted it: #5407: Arcree's Genesis Crack Down "1 player" in 09:14.18
Edit: following feos' response in the ask a judge thread, I'm holding off my request until the rules get updated accordingly.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Oh. Yes. The actual judgement note. Yeah, my bad.
Still, that's a very old judgement and I think with today's standards these should be considered as different games, and get the old movie removed from the obsoleted chain. I'm not asking it to happen, I'm just pointing out that it could be the case.
The post that contains actual explanation and is linked from the judgment makes it sound like in addition to one game being a version of another, the author kinda makes sure there's minimal difference in the goal, and that goal is also questionable. All this is still relevant to Moons requirements. So if you want to disprove that decision, please quote its parts and explain why they don't make sense anymore, and these are 2 completely different games and they are played differently enough to look like different branches with unique, entertaining content. I'm asking you for the legwork here because I may not be able to get around to this too soon. If you actually feel they're substantially different, you'll definitely be able to formulate why.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The post that contains actual explanation and is linked from the judgment makes it sound like in addition to one game being a version of another, the author kinda makes sure there's minimal difference in the goal, and that goal is also questionable. All this is still relevant to Moons requirements. So if you want to disprove that decision, please quote its parts and explain why they don't make sense anymore, and these are 2 completely different games and they are played differently enough to look like different branches with unique, entertaining content. I'm asking you for the legwork here because I may not be able to get around to this too soon. If you actually feel they're substantially different, you'll definitely be able to formulate why.
I see.
feos wrote:
Do they meet Moons standard on entertainment?
Is that still a requirement after the tier revamp? I'm a bit confused. Still, since there is plan to update the rules for player amount, I'll wait after that before continuing this discussion.
Anycase, at least Metal Slug X does meet the Moons standards for entertainment for both 1 player and 2 players.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Anycase, at least Metal Slug X does meet the Moons standards for entertainment for both 1 player and 2 players.
Does that include obvious gameplay/routing differences?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Anycase, at least Metal Slug X does meet the Moons standards for entertainment for both 1 player and 2 players.
Does that include obvious gameplay/routing differences?
Not sure where to draw the line. But I can tell you two hard-coded differences in 2 players mode:
1) There are more prisoners to rescue, which means more guns and bombs at your disposal;
2) Bosses have more health (about the double, iirc)
For the rest, you have to figure out minor route adjustments for the sake of optimization. That is, you most likely have to use different weapons and use different approaches on some enemies, etc.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Watched both. In some aspects they are similar, and in those where they are different, the 2P movie is more entertaining, but also has more lag. To me 1P feels like less of exactly the same. I'd leave the unobsoletion decision here for a discussion that involves more people, like if it was a new submission. I'm personally not convinced.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I get your point. Additionally, it doesn't help that both movies are very old, and in my eye (as an experienced player and speedrunner) are both visibly improvable. So we'll talk about it again in the future...
This run is played on level 4, not the hardest difficulty. There are something special in metalslug games. The true hardest difficulty is level 8 of 2 players, because the enemise have more hp than 1 player run. So you can use some tricks like [4420] NES Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: The Manhattan Project "2 players" by Geesk, GJJJGJJJ & aiqiyou in 26:56.29. Though the rule said arcade continues are not allowed, it still could let player 2 join in the middel of game or let 1 player die all lives to reduce difficulty.
So I think all arcade metalslug games should been played on 2 players level8. And you can use death, but can't let it be 1 player game in any time.
It was brought up a year ago, now we can resume that discussion. My first question is, are "warp glitch", "out of bounds", and "zips", the same thing?
Tompa wrote:
This will need some accompanying notes according to Post #355723, as well as feedback.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
