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Posted: 12/3/2013 12:38 AM
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jlun2
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Spikestuff wrote:
It's your own fault for bringing up Pokemon. An automatic confusion ball for the 0:00. Also Team Rocket is Yellow only. Which if it was a "no major glitches" TAS would waste time compared to Blue. That's why it's Separated. Also if you want to be smart go ahead and obsolete the current Blue tas with a 0:00 oh wait it's mythological.
Please link to where it said Pokemon Blue is unable to do the save glitch instead of simply claiming it is impossible without actual backing. Also elaborate how team rocket is even involved in a save glitch run??
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 12/3/2013 5:21 AM
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Spikestuff
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jlun2 wrote:
Please link to where it said Pokemon Blue is unable to do the save glitch instead of simply claiming it is impossible without actual backing. Also elaborate how team rocket is even involved in a save glitch run??
First one is that I WANT TO SEE. Second one, no shit Sherlock. I was saying as it doesn't save time yadda yadda. I should make a dictionary of me to English.
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Posted: 12/3/2013 6:53 AM
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thatguy
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Well, I already provided a quote that such a run is possible on Red and Blue as well, but if you insist here is a link: http://tasvideos.org/1958S.html (First line of the fourth paragraph of "Serious Comments") Yes, there is not a published run on Red or Blue, but I see no reason not to believe gia since nobody has presented any information to the contrary. In any case, if somebody did make a Blue 0:00 TAS, it would not obsolete the current half-hour TAS. It would obsolete the Yellow 0:00 if it was faster, and otherwise it wouldn't obsolete anything, because that is how the categories work at the moment. If you don't like those rules, do something about it. But at the moment I am applying those rules to EarthBound, which is a similar case, and under those rules the 9-minute movie which accesses the debug menu should be its own branch. TL;DR the categories are not Yellow any% and Blue any%, they are RBY any % and RBY "no save corruption". EarthBound should thus also have a "no save corruption" TAS, which would be the one that uses the debug menu.
Posted: 12/3/2013 10:00 AM
Post subject: Clarified with Muffins
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Spikestuff
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So really in a nutshell THIS and THIS. See if you mentioned these 2 Pokemon runs to back your point of Earthbound I would agree but you didn't... Now I agree with you because I brought better examples :3
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Posted: 12/4/2013 11:17 AM
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thatguy
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Just to add to the confusion: I hadn't factored in that one movie was the Japan Rom and one was the American Rom, and so once again there is a question mark hanging over whether they are runs of the same game or not. Moreover I cannot find anywhere whether or not this same trick is possible on the American Rom too. So now there are two possible different reasons for unobsoletion: different branch, and different game. Would it be appropriate to contact Pirohiko? Knowing whether the save corruption is also possible on the USA version would clarify things.
Posted: 12/4/2013 5:32 PM
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jlun2
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thatguy wrote:
Just to add to the confusion: I hadn't factored in that one movie was the Japan Rom and one was the American Rom, and so once again there is a question mark hanging over whether they are runs of the same game or not. Moreover I cannot find anywhere whether or not this same trick is possible on the American Rom too. So now there are two possible different reasons for unobsoletion: different branch, and different game. Would it be appropriate to contact Pirohiko? Knowing whether the save corruption is also possible on the USA version would clarify things.
Are you talking about EarthBound? If so, even if it was exclusive to a region, I don't think it would really matter since both runs use the debug menu. :P
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 12/15/2013 5:46 AM
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ais523
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While researching for a different thread, I found [1363] PSX Castlevania: Symphony of the Night by arukAdo & pirate_sephiroth in 19:01.63. This is a newgame completion that's marked as obsoleted by a newgame+, which is a different (more permissive) category. Both categories are legal and can coexist nowadays.
Posted: 12/18/2013 10:36 AM
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Spikestuff
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Now I understand that Crash N-Tranced is in Vault but THIS? How is that not in vault?
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Posted: 12/18/2013 10:58 AM
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CoolKirby
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I don't know why it wasn't put in the Vault during the initial dividing of movies into tiers, but with its current goals and branch name, it can't be moved to the Vault now.
Posted: 12/18/2013 5:06 PM
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Noxxa
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Spikestuff wrote:
Now I understand that Crash N-Tranced is in Vault but THIS? How is that not in vault?
CoolKirby wrote:
I don't know why it wasn't put in the Vault during the initial dividing of movies into tiers
Its entertainment rating is 6.1 (as of writing). The cutoff rate for Vault is an entertainment rating of 5.7 or less, which is why it was moved to Moons during the initial divide. With its rating (even if not very impressive), there's no reason for it to have to go to Vault.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 12/18/2013 5:50 PM
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Radiant
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Mothrayas wrote:
The cutoff rate for Vault is an entertainment rating of 5.7 or less
This raises an interesting question of what should be done if a movie's rating falls below this cutoff point, and it doesn't fit the Vault criteria otherwise (i.e. it's not an "any%" or "100%" run). I don't think we have any such movies now, but at some point in the future we probably will.
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Posted: 12/18/2013 5:55 PM
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feos
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[2246] Genesis Olympic Gold: Barcelona '92 "playaround" by Toothache in 10:32.23
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/18/2013 6:05 PM
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Noxxa
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I think the decision was made then (when that one was found out to be inappropriately published in the vault) that such movies would go to moon tier regardless of rating.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 12/18/2013 11:17 PM
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Radiant
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Mothrayas wrote:
I think the decision was made then (when that one was found out to be inappropriately published in the vault) that such movies would go to moon tier regardless of rating.
That works. It reenforces the principle that the Vault is more than simply "all movies with ratings below some value", just like how Star Tier is not merely "all movies with ratings above some threshold". None of the tiers is an automatically generated list, and judges have put careful consideration into where to place movies. It should go without saying that this is a Good Thing. (besides, if people want to see an automatically generated list, we've got those too; it's just that the Tier system is a more detailed classification than that).
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Posted: 2/1/2014 9:34 AM
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Radiant
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I just found out that [1] NES Solomon's Key by Bisqwit in 22:43.95 (which is an any% run) is marked as obsoleted by [498] NES Solomon's Key "best ending" by Bisqwit in 26:35.83 (which is a 100% run, and slower than the other one). I believe that by our current standards, this is incorrect and they should be counted as separate branches, with the former being un-obsoleted.
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Posted: 2/1/2014 9:40 AM
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feos
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It can only happen if the obsoleted one is not technically obsolete regarding its quality by today's standards. The question is still "What if it is submitted today?"
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/24/2020 4:20 PM
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Samsara
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[1759] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls, inbounds" by Kriole in 24:56.10 I'm going to, as the Judge who obsoleted it in the first place, recommend that it be removed from the obsoletion chain and republished as a new branch. Since the decision, I've felt more and more like I made the wrong choice, and so at the very least I'd like to invite some discussion on it as a way of taking responsibility for my mistake. PROS:
    * It was and still is one of the most highly-regarded movies on the site, sparking a debate at the time of whether or not it was worth keeping as a published run. I let the run's fate fall purely to the thread feedback, and the "voting" was close enough (10 to 7 in favor of obsoletion) that I should've kept waiting/asking for more feedback to provide a more clear answer. I also feel like I misinterpreted the feedback at the time as "it has to be one way or the other", as opposed to "I have a preference but I don't actually mind either way", which should have been accounted for as that would most definitely have pushed me to not obsoleting the run. * Because the run actively avoids zipping of any kind, the routing is completely different, which I believe makes the run stand on its own next to the other published AoS runs. Of the five runs currently published, two of them are a separate character (Julius), and two of them are extremely heavily glitched (any% and the currently published all souls). The closest analogue is the zipless any% run, and due to the soul collection, the routing, fighting and entertainment are still very different between the two runs. * The run absolutely still holds up by today's standards, and due to the sheer amount of luck manipulation involved, a potential improvement to this category (which I doubt would ever come due to the fact that this run was obsoleted in the first place) may take months or even years to complete. The run is still being watched and talked about to this day, which is what prompted me to take another look at it in the first place.
CONS:
    * While this is a zipless run, there are two things about it that make it much harder to define as a separate category. One: It is not glitchless. Two: It does not avoid sequence breaking. * The run uses a glitch where it triggers a level-up on the same frame as collecting a soul, combining the two messages and saving around 1-2 seconds by not having the game pause twice to process both individually. * The Floating Gardens can be accessed far earlier than intended by exploiting an intentional game mechanic. The game will push you up onto a ledge or platform if you land JUST short of the very edge. Due to the shape and positioning of the platform leading up to the Floating Gardens, this is possible to trigger there by just double-jumping and approaching the edge of said platform. Normally, you need to collect the Undine soul from the Inner Quarters to be able to walk on water, but the platform is just low enough that a double jump from the water can trigger the edge-of-ledge grace. * Due to these, it could be argued that the obsoletion still makes sense, as the currently published "all souls" is putting glitch use and sequence breaking to much better use than this run. "No zips" could be the category, and we do have a published "no zips" run of a different game, but we also just obsoleted a "no zips" run with a zipped run.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 10/31/2020 3:24 PM
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EZGames69
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My only question if this were to be done is which movie would subsequently get the star?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Posted: 10/31/2020 5:20 PM
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Samsara
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The Star should stay on the zips version, since it literally has the highest entertainment rating on the site, not to mention also being recommended for newcomers. I'll leave my thoughts on Stars in general for another discussion in another thread.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 11/1/2020 1:00 PM
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feos
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Samsara wrote:
The closest analogue is the zipless any% run, and due to the soul collection, the routing, fighting and entertainment are still very different between the two runs.
By zipless any% do you mean [1478] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Kriole in 20:58.62?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/6/2021 12:42 PM
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EZGames69
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I believe [1103] NES Mega Man by Deign in 15:29.27 should be unobsoleted and be posted as its own category. The reason is in the current publication: [4131] NES Mega Man by Shinryuu, pirohiko, Maru & finalfighter in 09:45.35, a good chunk of levels were completely skipped due to a glitch that ends levels early. The previous movie did not use this glitch as often as this newer movie did, and I personally do not find this very entertaining to watch and would prefer a more straightforward movie for this game, as it feels anti-climatic for levels to just end abruptly.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Posted: 3/6/2021 12:59 PM
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Noxxa
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How do you want to categorize the old movie? It can't be glitchless/low-glitch, as even without DelayStageClear it is dominated with zipping and other glitches. The currently published run also was made with the restriction in mind that no stage is skipped outright (i.e. every stage's start routine and end routine is run), so I'm not sure if just banning a specific trick on top of that makes for a sensible enough category.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 3/6/2021 3:43 PM
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EZGames69
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Mothrayas wrote:
The currently published run also was made with the restriction in mind that no stage is skipped outright (i.e. every stage's start routine and end routine is run)
That restriction quite honestly doesn't matter at all if it's still skipping stages through the use of a glitch. It's more of a "Technically we AREN'T skipping the stage, we're just ending the stage right away". It feels more like this except without actually using ACE. And honestly I'm not sure why the category can't be "No DelayStageClear" (or "no level end glitch" to be more understandable) if the majority of the current TAS is just that. The feel and dynamic of the current TAS with the DelayStageClear glitch just leaves me dissapointed and I'd like to see more of the game be beaten with the other really cool glitches the game has, not just zipping but there's this great moment in the Deign movie that you dont see at all in the DelayStageClear movie: https://youtu.be/COeJu9Mw72A?t=736 This glitch is loads more entertaining to watch imo than the DelayStageClear glitch. It's also why we have Branches like [1937] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog "no zips" by Aglar in 17:36.58 since one major glitch that skips the entire stage would mean you miss out on all the other cool stuff to show off in the game.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Posted: 3/6/2021 11:21 PM
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warmCabin
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So, a "no object glitches" run is already in the works. The guys let me post a silly spoiler for it a while ago. In fact, if you look at the submisson, under Goal Choice, you can see they already suggested a three-way split between ACE, Any%, and NOG, featuring "Bisqwit & Deign -like gameplay." Not to mention everyone's favorite side category! More categories means more better for you.
Posted: 3/7/2021 3:20 AM
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TheKDX7
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There is also the case of this run : GB Looney Tunes (USA) in 09:28.88 by Sonikkustar which was made obsolete by this "glitched" category at the time : GBC Looney Tunes (USA) in 03:53.97 by Aqfaq & Sonikkustar couldn't we give it the "All levels" category or just "any%" and the other one "warp glitch" ?
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