I personally never knew the guy, but hearing people like this take their own life is always heartbreaking to me.
How sick and twisted do you have to be to torment someone to the point where they feel so helpless, that they feel like suicide is their only escape. I hope these bullies won't get out of this scott free.
It's okay Near. They can't hurt you anymore. May you rest in peace you poor soul.
Oh shoot, I guess it's been a while since you guys got an update on the ring attack huh.
Well, you'll be happy to know that I'm about halfway through Scrap Brain 3. Unfortunately it's hard to say when I'll be done because apparently our blue boy needs to breathe (in other words I'm having trouble with bubble rng).
Given how close I am to the end I won't make the gmv public. I would recommend watching the whole thing when it does come out. I've improved a lot of levels from their first iteration. As a result I have no idea which updated levels you may or may not have seen.
To answer your question about getting all rings. Yes it is possible.
If you guys want to prevent conflict, how about you let your users decide on who’s worthy of this award through voting. At least for this year since it was a last minute request.
I'd honestly lean towards obsoleting zips with no zips if voting was better but as is it's kinda borderline. As totally separate branches... it's very eh to me...
If you ask me you'd be better off in the long run if you made a seperate branch. I'm in the process of making an improved zips run.
it's a pretty nice run but it kinda bothers me to see a "no zips" category while you go thru a wall in Labyrinth 2 (7:50 ) i'll abstain to vote for that but it'd be a nice yes vote for me
I checked myself. No zips were done there. There's a bit of ceiling you can fall through to get back inbounds.
Here's a bit of game knowledge about collision with tiles. The game uses 2 different methods of keeping you out of tiles. Zipping when you're on the ground, and terrain ejection when you're in the air. Neither one works in opposite conditions.
Zipping is the one this run aims to avoid. It pushes you the opposite direction of where you're going with actual speed. In normal senarios this does work fine, but when you initiate it while already inside a wall you get ejected out at ridiculous speeds.
Terrain ejection however simply displaces you horizontally (ie without any speed). It always pushes you right if you're spot where the game would otherwise not be able to decide which way you should go. This is why that stair clip works. If you happen to end up inside a tile while in the air you get horizontally locked in place.
Yeah that game over is probably my favorite part of this run. I’m also happy I was able to get in that 4th death to underflow my lives.
WST wrote:
In the final boss battle, try to glitch through the Eggman’s pistons and climb onto the wall inside. I was able to do it when me&marzojr were making the currently published run , but we didn’t get anything useful from it. Who knows, maybe you will do. :)
That is the exact reason this tas isn’t completed yet. There’s potential for Knuckles to get in double hits but nothing I tried so far worked. I might be able to do something with that clip though. Do you have a gmv of said clip?
Wow, nice find! It’s amazing how you guys still find improvements in this game.
Yep. That's not even the biggest one. There's quite a few improvements that's been found over time.
Here's some examples that I can think of off the top of my head.
SY1- I have no idea when this one was found, but you can do a clip into the half pipes which saves a couple seconds.
SB1- One of the biggest improvements. I managed to get 0:24 using slope glitch. My initial attempt wasn't fully optimized so I suspect at least a 23 is possible.
SB3- I found out that Sonic can do a stair clip into the slope. You can get a 0:05 with this.
Oh yeah, here's a nearly finished (and heavily improved) S1K run I have just lying around.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/110937678/S1K%20any%20kaan55.gmv
Can the Sonic Solo & Sonic & Tails runs be merged, so the fastest input is kept? Or is the game not hex edit friendly?
Honestly I would prefer making a new Sonic and Tails run from scratch. I’d have to do so anyways because if I simply copied my inputs to a Sonic and Tails run it would look very suboptimal from not using Tails.
Oh yeah I thought I should mention this here. I probably won’t be making any other S3K any% runs until the soft reset issue gets resolved.
Well I guess it's settled then. Just have this submission obsolete the current Sonic and Tails any% run. This even solves a lot of issues that were brought up throughout this thread. Now that I've thought about it some more, the idea of obsoleting a Sonic and Tails run with only Sonic sounds amazing.
Samsara wrote:
I'd support this run obsoleting any% until a new any% comes around, with the caveat that this run is still branched as Sonic only and the description makes it clear that the improvement is purely IGT, the runs are close enough in content to warrant the obsoletion, and the realtime loss is solely because of a cutscene that solo Sonic can't skip. It wouldn't sit right with me any other way.
I second this. I feel that the published video should still distinguish the fact that this is a Sonic alone run in some way.
Lots of good arguments here. Unfortunately I've kinda just run out of stuff to say. I could try to argue but I'd likely just repeat an argument I've already made. Also I have a compromise I wanna propose.
So I still do want a new any% branch, especially since this would be the last one. However I am willing to compromise. Since some people don't feel this Sonic alone run is different enough from a Sonic and Tails run, why not just have this submission obsolete that one? I mean I did beat the total ingame time by a good margin (as you can see from feos' post), and if a new Sonic and Tails were to be made it could very easily beat my Sonic alone run.
arkiandruski wrote:
It shouldn't have any bearing. In the rta Sonic category you aren't allowed to control Tails with a second controller. It's similar to how they do Sonic 2 runs. I opted to not use Tails at all because not having 2nd player control felt like a dumb restriction. Also they have a coop category which is the actual rta variant of a Sonic and Tails run.
Angel Island 1- First half would more or less be the same as the published run with the second loop zip.
Second half will use the same zip from the NG+ tas thanks to a new 2P stair clip technique. Also has frame perfect boss fight
Angel Island 2- This does need testing but Sonic and Tails may end up taking the top route. There is another lightning shield monitor I can grab and with Tails' help Sonic can take the top route without losing his shield.
Otherwise it will more or less be the same as this run. Just with small timesaves courtesy of Tails.
Hycrocity 1- As mentioned by other this level has a level wrap. Updated version will likely just being a slightly faster version of published run. Also has frame perfect boss fight
Hycrocity 2- Will probably be the same as this run with a frame perfect boss fight.
Marble Garden- Will probably be the same as this run with 1 possible timesave with Tails.
Carnival Night- Possible return of wheel glitch thanks to new strats found by the rta community. Also faster Act 1 boss fight.
If wheel glitch ends up being slower then the level will just be a faster version of this run.
Icecap-Sonic can get slope glitch much sooner with the first ice block. Will also use act 2 boss skip like in this run.
Launch Base 1- Will probably be the same as this run with faster boss fight.
Launch Base 2- Sonic can't skip the 1st boss and eggmobile ride by himself. He can't do the act 1 in act 2 glitch and even if he could he still wouldn't be able to reach Knuckles' boss area.
Mushroom Hill 1- Sonic will do the level wrap without dropping down inside the walls since Sonic and Tails can beat the boss fast enough together to leave the screen unlocked.
Mushroom Hill 2- Sonic and Tails won't be taking the same route as this run. The reason for this is only the horizontal boundary remains unlocked during the score tally while the vertical ones stay where they are which leaves the death plane at the bottom of the screen. As a result they have to go up top like in the published run to be able to progress during the score tally.
As for updated S+T strats. Sonic may end up using the lightning shield from the act 1 boss arena. Will also have a faster boss fight followed by the early capsule button glitch like in the ring attack.
Flying Battery 1- Much faster level wrap as shown in the video below. Also with Tails' help Sonic can reach the boss without having to wait for objects to load.
Link to videoFlying Battery 2- Will likely use the same route as the one in this run.
Sandopolis 1- Other than a slightly faster boss this will be more or less the same.
Sandopolis 2- Good possibility of level wrap via light switch glitch. Will also have frame perfect boss fight.
Lava Reef 1- Faster level wrap (shown in the video below) that skips basically all the content in the level. With Tails' help Sonic will be able to kill the 2 circular turrets faster
Link to videoLava Reef 2- Possibility of slightly faster level wrap with Tails' help. Otherwise the level will pretty much be the same.
Hidden Palace- Minor timesave with the first spikes. Considerably faster Knuckles fight with 2P strat. Also skips all the cutscenes.
Sky Sanctuary- Will more or less be the same as the published run.
Death Egg 1- Will likely use a different route from this run. Also gravity room skip is a thing with Tails' help. Frame perfect phase 1 redeye fight.
Link to videoDeath Egg 2- Fast death during act transition as shown in the published run. Will likely have faster level wrap with Tails' help. Timewise the only boss Tails will save time with are the fingers. Also no invisible floor glitch in the final boss arena as it's not necessary and wastes 2 frames.
As I was typing this the problem became more and more apperent to me. Compared to the 2014 Sonic and Tails run an updated run would indeed be more different from this one. In fact a good chunk of the game is heavily impacted by not having Tails. However there are indeed some levels that would only have slight differences which I feel is okay to some extent. I made this run with the intention to show off how Sonic would handle each level by himself. I thought that by itself would be interesting. If the game wasn't as heavily impacted as it is I wouldn't have even gone through with making this run. With the possible exception of Lava Reef 2 no level would end up being exactly the same.
Sorry I took a while to respond. I can tell you that the differences in an updated Sonic and Tails run would not be as subtle. To help prove this I'm going to list out the updated strats. This may take some time.
Gens also support a third controller if you are recording in 3 buttons mode, it could be a really cool feature for Sonic Classic Heroes but it doesn't seem like it is that useful :/
I tested it myself. It works well for Sonic Classic Heroes.
Also welcome back feeuzz! I didn't know if I would ever see you.
The movie won't change, and as you said we can keep discussing it, so I don't think setting it to delayed is going to affect anything. We can just wait, while talking occasionally.
Oh yeah you’re right. I’d be okay with you just waiting. As long as you don’t accept/reject my run during my absence.
So since it functionally is a lower-glitch, more-sightseeing any%, it should be published in a separate branch, but eventually replaced with a proper low-glitch, more-sightseeing any%, also played with solo Sonic.
This way the run gets published, kaan55 is happy, and and the branch is put to good use (at least in perspective). Since a low-glitch run would also be solo Sonic anyway, it can be easily repurposed with little further justification necessary (especially if kaan55 does it himself and/or a new S+T any% is submitted by that time). Since a low-glitch run would barely overlap with any other category, it'd have to be a separate branch anyway, so might as well start it now. You can even preemptively put it in the verdict that a low-glitch Sonic run would be able to obsolete this one.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. Like both branches are gonna be drastically different from each other. I don't know and that's exactly why I'm here actually.
Feos can we set this to delayed. At least until my semester for spring 2020 is over? Despite the classes being online it's not exactly a pleasant experience for me partially due to some mental health issues I have (don't worry I've been getting better).
When I first submitted this I had no idea this would become such a big issue, and by extension a stressful ordeal for me. To make things worse it seems that I now have to compare each individual level of all 4 any% categories only for a chance at getting a new branch.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for the discussion, but it's not something I wanna deal with right now. So if it's alright with you I'd like for this to get set to delayed. You guys can feel free to continue discussing this.
Isn't that part of the beauty though? Seeing which levels aren't the same and how each character handles each scenario in their own way with their own tricks.
Anyways seeing as feos compiled this data I will compile some of my own with updated strats. I just need to work out how I should do so first. This could take a while.
Please do! There are many of us who appreciate competently done low-glitch runs of games that have been thoroughly broken otherwise. I promise you that both feos and myself do. I will personally come and gush all over it in the submission thread. :D
Oh really. Well in that case I think I will :)
Don't worry they will be competently done. I'm promise you I won't go out of my way to justify questionable looking stuff and I do have a very good idea on what's intended. I was even thinking about doing them in Sonic 3 complete as that hack fixes a lot of bugs in S3K while also keeping the base game intact. Now that I think about it we can probably even use it as a workaround to the branch count.
Maybe it's just me but I feel like we're getting slightly off topic with this. feel free to drop by the S3K thread if you wanna discuss this further. For now I want my submission here to get taken care of.
moozooh wrote:
Also, while feos may propose unexpected (and occasionally disagreeable) solutions, he's always looking for input and is open to discussion. You shouldn't treat his proposals as the final say on the matter; in fact he is inviting further discussion precisely because the answer is not obvious and hence not yet decided. He's already said it before that the last thing he wants is players quitting over unnecessary decisions. So voice your disagreements, argue your case, and he will try to come up with a better decision.
Yeah sorry about that. I'm still somewhat new to this and I will admit I did panic slightly. I'm more than okay with having further discussions on this matter.
I feel like I should mention this. If I did have to choose one of those 2 options I'd pick the first one. Not only is it the simpler solution, it'd also cause less complications later on. Like if somebody does end up updating the Sonic 100% run that would only end up as a matter of whether or not that run should get a new branch.
However even if it was in the wrong tone the point in my last post still stands. I just don't think it'd be a good idea to move around branches like that. I'd still prefer if a new branch was made for this submission.
Just accept this movie to obsolete Sonic 100%.
That's the branch with the lowest entertainment rating, and it's slower than Knuckles 100%, which can be considered "true 100%", since Sonic is a sub-optimal character in that category.
That will still leave us with the same problem as we're having right now whenever someone feels like making a "low glitch" branch. We know Sonic TASers don't really care about it, and it's mostly for mere mortals like us to enjoy the game without hacks. I don't think it's fair to require an emulator hack to be able to appreciate the movie.
Obsolete Sonic 100% with Knuckles 100%. Obsolete Knuckles with Tails. Obsolete Tails with this run.
That way we have a Knuckles branch as well as one full completion branch, and further single-player runs could obsolete one another based on technical novelty and entertainment.
Then if someone invents a novel concept, be it "low glitch" or something else entirely, there will be a place for some more branches that are meant to represent entirely different play style other than "same single-char levels with some new tricks".
This option preserves the most different concepts separated and advertises up-to-date runs. Sonic 100% is from 2009. Tails is from 2013. Waiting for all branches to be updated will easily require 10 more years.
So I’ve thought this over. Feos, I appreciate that you’re trying to get my tas accepted, but I just can’t bring myself to choose either of those options.
Replace Knuckles with Tails and replace Tails with Sonic? What? When I first started this run I had no way to anticipate too many branches would be an issue. It’s not mentioned in the movie rules, nor did anybody warn me. The fact that this got so overly complicated to the point where you have to do this kind of trickery with the branches is really heartbreaking.
Forget about me. What will our viewers think when they discover this on their own? What will they think when they find out Sonic any% somehow obsoleted Sonic 100%? The second option is even worse in this regard.
All of this for what? To maintain some arbitrary branch limit? Look I’m not asking you guys to make a million new branches. I’m only asking you to make the one for this run, and not just any branch. The last one in a set. I mean you already have published runs of the other 3 any% categories. One more can’t hurt. Not only that but this’ll likely be the last new branch this game will ever get (I’ll get into glitchless/low glitch below). None of the other tasers are planning on making any new categories for S3K. Only improvements over existing ones.
Also, take the Sonic 100% run for example. The fact that it’s old is the exact reason it should keep its own branch. With the Knuckles’ 100% run Evil_3D thought “hey this run seems interesting, maybe I should improve it”. Wouldn’t it be great if the same thing happened with Sonic’s 100% run?
What about this Sonic any% run. Well I thought it’d be cool to have this published alongside the Sonic+Tails, Tails, and Knuckles any% runs, and keep pushing them all to their very limits.
Regarding glitchless/low glitch runs. That actually ties into this topic. I was considering making some myself at some point in the future, but after this ordeal I’m afraid of what may happen if I do so. Like, you actually discouraged me from making these runs now.
I’m not gonna lie this thread feels like a shitpost. Like Evil_3D said this isn't a very productive thread so I'm just gonna say anything. Besides after what happened last time (again, sorry about that boct) I don't think you'd want me to end up losing my cool and ripping you a new one about your own ignorance.
There's a game resources page in case you didn't know it existed. It goes into great detail about the 3 character's various mechanics. However it doesn't necessarily say what you can do with them so I made this list of Sonic Tails, and Knuckles' various movement techniques.
General:
-The main differences between the characters comes from their double jump actions which greatly effect gameplay. These double jump actions allows you to regain air control if you jumped from a roll. This plays a huge role in Sonic’s movement.
-If you land from the air you’ll start running. To go with this there’s aerial drag which plays a significant role in movement. If there is a low enough ceiling you can bump into it to avoid aerial drag.
Sonic:
-As a double jump action Sonic can insta-shield. Along with this there are also 3 elemental shields that replace insta-shield when obtained. This effectively gives sonic not just one but four methods of movement.
-In some cases routing adjustments have to be made just to get one of the elemental shields.
Insta-shield- Expands Sonic’s hurtbox considerably and makes him immune to damage for the duration. It doesn’t have any (direct) effects on movement.
-The insta-shield does get used quite a bit for its intended purpose.
-It’s also commonly used as kind of an on switch for air control since it has no direct effects on movement.
-It's also the shield that gets used the most often in any% as it's the one Sonic has from the start.
bubble shield- Makes Sonic go down at a fast speed and zeros out his horizontal speed. Does a bounce upon impacting the ground that goes higher than Sonic’s jump.
-It’s sometimes used for falling faster if that saves more time than the bounce wastes (It is not used for this often because of the bounce). In some circumstances in some cases the bounce can be partly negated or even nullified altogether.
-With the way it affects your movement it’s easy to do stair clips with them. If the bubble shield is present this tends to get abused heavily.
Fire shield- Makes you go forward at a fast speed and zeros out your vertical speed.
-Useful for getting over obstacles fast. Since it zeros out vertical speed it can be used to land instantly.
-In less common cases it can be used to lodge yourself into terrain.
Lightning shield- Gives Sonic a midair jump that doesn’t effect Sonic’s horizontal movement. Interestingly this also removes control over jump/bounce height.
-Used mainly to reach high places or make jumps that are otherwise not possible. The amount of time this saves adds up a lot.
-Can be used to bump into higher ceilings to negate aerial drag. Not used often in any% as such areas don't happen to pop up.
-Like the insta-shield (although not as often) it also gets used only to regain air control.
-Even though a use currently hasn’t been found for it Sonic can do stair clips that would otherwise be too high for him to reach.
Tails:
-He can fly which not only allows you to gain height, but significantly reduce his downward acceleration. He does get tired after a while (12 seconds to be exact) but this rarely becomes a concern in tases.
-His Tails can deal damage while flying. Very useful for getting faster boss fights.
-has a shorter hitbox than Sonic and Knuckles. Mainly becomes a problem for vertically traversing the inside of walls.
-With his flight reducing downward descent it can be used as a way of maintaining speed across longer stretches in a level. This is one of Tails' main movement techniques.
-His flight allows him to stair clip into areas that are otherwise not possible. This also helps him compensate for his shorter hitbox. Although this is not used often it usually does save a considerable amount of times in areas it is used.
Sonic and Tails:
-Allows you to play as Sonic and Tails at the same time with Sonic being player 1 and Tails being Player 2.
-Tails can carry Sonic while flying. Because of this you not only get to use Sonic’s movement techniques, but Tails’ as well.
-Tails is practically immortal. He can only die by falling into a death boundary or getting crushed. Even then he just comes back.
-With their combined techniques as well as new ones Sonic and Tails can do stair clips in nearly any area. Despite not being used too often this can get stupid real fast.
-Through a number of advantages you can generally do frame perfect, if not considerably faster boss fights.
-Tails can easily clip into things by doing offscreen magic. Doesn't get used often in any%.
Knuckles:
-He can glide in midair.
-he can climb walls (that aren’t objects) by gliding into it. You can speed up climbing by repeatedly jumping off and reattaching to the wall.
-Letting go of glide in midair makes Knuckles drop down, and landing on normal tiles from this (on normal tiles) zeros out his horizontal speed. If he lands on an object he maintains his horizontal speed and doesn’t do the landing animation.
-if he lands on terrain on the first frame of his glide the game treats that as if he glided on an object. This can in some cases be used to get a speed boost.
-has lower Strength jump than Sonic and Tails. Although it's not often this can become a problem that needs to be worked around.
-He can use his glide to quickly stop and initiate a spindash. This gets abused a lot especially in S3K.
-The glide is commonly used to fall faster.
-Thanks to the glide's properties he can clip into things from the top much easier than Sonic and Tails can. Used often to break levels.
-by gliding into a monitor or badnik he can transfer his downward speed to upward speed allowing him to reach heights at fast speeds and sometimes get to areas that are otherwise out of reach. This gets somewhat commonly abused.
-In some levels Knuckles has to through his own “exclusive” areas in order to progress. Sometimes he has his own starting points.
-If you hit a boss (or something with the same properties) with the glide Knuckles automatically drops his glide. Used mainly for playaround.
Hey Evil_3D and Kaan55! Congratulations on achieving special Star ranking. At the end of the day, what you guys have created is a real and lasting contribution to culture. I hope you'll be able to look back on this project for years to come as a source of personal pride. It was an honor working with you both. If you guys are still struggling, pressed for time, with regards to the submission text and if you think I may be able to help in any way then I welcome you to hit me up privately. I may have more time on my hands... Also thanks to everyone for their kind comments in the submission thread, ages ago now, and also welcome back Marzojr - looking forward to whatever you may end up producing!
Hey long time no see! Thanks for the congrats man. It was quite a journey which I already look back with pride.
And thanks for the offer with the submission text. I think I’ll pm you right now actually
This run is technically quite impressive, but the problem is that it's a new branch, and we already have quite a few of them:
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-127G-RatingE.html
I watched most of them side-by-side level-by-level, and I can say that this branch doesn't fully look similar to any of the existing ones, only some parts look close, to some of the existing branches. Yet we can't be expanding this indefinitely.
Interestingly, the lowest rated branches are the 100% ones. But while Sonic 100% is "the worst", it's 1) full completion, and also 2) still quite different from this run.
From singular branches we have Knuckles and Tails. Both resemble this run in some areas, also I'd theorize that if they are redone now, they will look closer to this movie. However Tails is rated really high, so I'm not sure which we can sacrifice.
I do expect any% to look a lot like this run if it's redone too, but what about singular Knuckles and Tails? Which of them will differ from this run more, if all the new tricks are applied?
Well I do understand you guys for not wanting too many branches, but here's something to consider about this game. Along with having multiple valid goal choices (any%, NG+, 100%, and ring attacks) it also has multiple characters which are all unique in their own way. Don't get me wrong I'm definitely not saying there should be a branch for every single possible combination. I'm just saying it's reasonable for a game like this to end up with so many branches.
As for each of the other any% runs (Sonic+Tails, Tails, and Knuckles). With all the recent stuff that got found I expect all of them to be even more different if they ever get updated. I should know because I actually found a lot of the recent stuff, and I'm betting tons more new stuff will get found in the making of those new runs. If you won't take my word for it I'm even willing to list out the differences.
Also, the goal choice for this particular run is in my opinion a bit too, well how should I put it, simplistic to get rejected. It's an any% run Sonic. The only goal I had in mind with this run was to beat the game as fast as possible with Sonic. That's it. Nothing extra or arbitrary.
Something that might be reassuring is that this'll probably be the last new run in a new category this game will get for a good while. Could even be the last one altogether. As far as I know nobody is currently planning on making any runs of new categories. The only ones we're doing or going to do for S3&K will be improvements over existing runs.
With whatever you decide to do I feel like removing any existing branches should not be one of them. They all got accepted for their own reasons and it just wouldn't feel right or fair to have them removed just to keep the branch count low.
I know you'll be fair in your judgement. Even if it's rejection I'll respect your final decision. Just keep in mind that I've spent way too much time on this run to not have it accepted. I think you can see that from the rerecord count which is double of the current Sonic and Tails any% run.
