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Recently I brought up my issues pertaining to the disc swap rule, which itself was a carryover from older site rules. Specifically, I'm referring to:
For disc systems, you may only use discs belonging to your game, and they may only be swapped when the game prompts you to. You are not allowed to arbitrarily swap discs at any other time.
Console verification is not required for a submission, however your gameplay should match console behavior as much as possible anyway. Glitches and in-game behaviors that are known to be the result of emulation bugs are not allowed, and must be avoided. In cases where a movie is published with a known emulator bug, a slower movie that avoids that bug will obsolete it.
Now, there's two components to the rule: only using discs belonging to your game, and only swapping when the game prompts you to. Let's focus first on swapping when the game prompts you to and the reasoning why this should be repealed.
There are a few RPGs on the PS1 whose speedrun routes are dependent on swapping discs at arbitrary moments in order to save time, with potentially many more that simply lack research. For a large example, take Xenogears.
Link to video
Through the usage of arbitrary disc swaps, in this case swapping from the game's disc 1 to 2 and back, you can pull up a kernal menu which allows for the ability to access over 50,000 shops at the very start of the game, which greatly speeds up every fight in the game. Arbitrary disc swapping can also be used on the world map to reach Nortune, which saves 2 hours, and a later one to skip Babel Tower for a similar 2 hour timesave. For games such as Final Fantasy VII or IX, this would save time either by replacing long FMVs with shorter ones, or skipping them entirely.
The other component, only using discs belonging to your game, is also not followed with glitched RTA speedruns of the Japanese version of Xenogears. In particular, 'Chocobo’s Mysterious Dungeon Data Disc' is used in order to allow the Kernal Menu to exit to the world map when it would normally crash, allowing for a great deal more skips. Combined with the faster text, and this means that glitched runs on the Japanese version are 8 hours faster then runs done in English.
With games such as Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories, disc swap can be used to obtain glitched cards by swapping in a copy of 'Big League Slugger Baseball' as the game attempts to generate cards won after a duel.
Link to video
These are the most broad applications of what arbitrary disc swapping can be used for. So why exactly is this type of thing an issue?
Well, first let's examine older forum discussions on this and related topics.
https://tasvideos.org/Forum/Topics/14051https://tasvideos.org/Forum/Topics/20443https://web.archive.org/web/20190614220114/http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#RomImageMustBeIntegral
Now there's quite a plethora of examples here we can dive into for things that I feel are similar to this problem, but let's focus on how things were written in the rules in 2019:
It is not allowed to make use of images that are not intended to belong to the game being TASed. It is considered intended, if it is endorsed by the game or by its publisher (as an add-on, for example).
For games that consist of multiple images that are intended to be used in a specific order, inserting a new image is only allowed when the game explicitly prompts for it, and the intended order must be respected.
If the game-play requires, or mainly consists of, inserting arbitrary images, such images must also be inserted only when the game duly prompts. However, there are strict requirements on the nature of such arbitrary images:
1) You need to use an image that's been generated specifically for the movie in question
2) You need to provide clear instructions on how to recreate it
3) This image has to serve the goals of your movie in a considerably optimal way
4) You need to provide insight on why you consider it optimal
5) The method used to create it must be free and easily accessible
This doesn't clarify why exactly images must be used in a specific order other then the game itself saying to do so, which I find a bit funny when considering most speedruns routinely exploit glitches to get around the game telling you to do things in a specific order.
The general vibe seems to be that swapping discs arbitrarily is a form of 'hardware manipulation', in other words similar to directly modifying a console or even as far as using a cheating device. This is further tied up with cartridge tilting to exploit memory and all that good stuff,.
I disagree with this being hardware manipulation or comparable to cartridge-based tilting. Let's go over the reasons why.
The act of swapping a disc is a normal gameplay function which is accounted for by most games via dedicated menus, and on occasion more directly by pausing the game when the wrong disc is detected, such as trying to load a save file on, say, Disc 3 while Disc 1 is inserted. Cartridge tilting, meanwhile, is more directly affecting how the game is being run by separating the connections between the console and game, and is not directly accounted via dedicated menus and the like. For me, cartridge tilting is more comparable to the use of hot plates and other nonsense to interfere with the console's normal function in order to create glitches it otherwise wouldn't generate.
With my prior Xenogears examples, the Kernal Menu coming up at all doesn't happen due to the specific discs being inserted, but from incorrect data being read when trying to load and throwing up an error screen. It doesn't take frame-precise manipulation in essentially all cases I've seen to do, and is possible on real console without risk of damaging either the game or hardware.
In many ways, this use of disc swapping is very similar to sub-frame reset glitches that are done to corrupt save files. The most obvious example of this would be the save corruption TASes for Chrono Trigger, where resetting in-between certain bytes being read can lead to beating the game significantly earlier then other methods.
[2047] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by turska & inichi in 03:28.06
This process as far as I'm aware wasn't verified on console when the movies were done, although the tech behind it was understandable, and it's only in recent years where certain RTA runners have begun trying this as well by physically resetting at precise times in-between frames.
Link to video
The point being, sub-frame resets are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to do then a disc swap glitch and has the higher potential IRL to cause problems to hardware, but have been allowed since at least 2008. If we limit the allowance of disc swap glitches to JUST discs that are part of an average run, I don't see it as fundamentally different as exploiting how a console functions when it resets.
The grey area, of course, would be using discs outside of a run's context, which I think has already been covered with the Super Mario Bros. ACE movie which uses Super Mario Bros. 3 to achieve ACE in a different game. If we were to assume a different disc was used to setup a memory card, then that could be accounted for in the movie itself. If it's JUST the usage of a different disc being inserted at the right time, that can also be accounted for in the movie itself. Whichever way you look at it, the usage of these different discs can be considered part of the movie itself and not extrinsic to it ala SRAM manipulation to load a save file that immediately beats the game, or something.
[6012] NES Super Mario Bros. "arbitrary code execution" by OnehundredthCoin in 04:52.65
Assuming that a disc swap glitch is found that requires inhuman precision for the swap, then I feel scrutiny via judging would be warranted to ensure that an emulation inaccuracy is not exploited. In all cases that I could find, however, these disc swaps do not take inhuman precision to do, and have effects that are verifiable on console as accurate, so I think therefore arbitrary disc swaps should be allowed.
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Hm, a lot of the routing is quite good, and I did find the run entertaining overall. The movement in places looks a bit strange/unoptimal, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't be published. I give it a yes.
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Sir VG wrote:
and does so in barely more than half the time of the last run in the same category.
I realize you just copy/pasted from the prior run of this category, but that obviously no longer applies to this run, since it's only 1 minute faster rather than 2 hours faster.
Thanks for noting, I went ahead and revised it.
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Been making a lot of progress formulating a route, and work on this has progressed from just creating a test run to being a full run instead.
I did extensive research into what you can and can't skip based on prior research done with this glitch RTA and came up with a list that'll be the backbone of the route:
Can't skip:
-The intro (softlocks later).
-Between phases (basically parts of the overworld you aren't supposed to reach at different stages of the game, indicated by world map music).
-Any party members (softlocks, need all four phase changes).
Can skip:
-Most of the Goddess Keys (only two are necessary for story flag progression).
-First two dungeons.
-Most of the events in phase 2 after getting Karn via a series of wrong warps.
-SlimeX so long as overworld state is updated (throwing the egg into the castle).
-Horntoad/lot of the midgame by getting the Bolster at the very start of phase 3 early.
-Most of the Cerl quest by glitching the door open.
-Parts/D.Hrt.
-Sara fight.
In total these skips add up to I want to say about 90 minutes of the game, so the final run should end up about 2 and a half hours.
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Link to video
Figured I'd make a topic on this while I work on a testrun.
The GBA version of Breath of Fire features a lot of improvements for speedrunning (with a hit to graphics/sound), including a run button and several version exclusive glitches, the most of important of which is the quicksave bug that lets you overwrite data from one map to another.
The WIP above goes up to Wizard and skips the intro/4 bosses using it.
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https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638135072569892357
Ruadath noted a mistake at the very start of the run, so I went back through and fixed that alongside a few more optimizations for a total timesave of 1001 frames.
Short list:
-Opened the menu right before Crono collects pendant to skip the animation.
-Rechecked movement in most every room for optimizations (saved frames through the run).
-Redid Alkalines fight to remove a punch from Robo.
-Corrected item menuing to use the start button to save frames properly.
-Removed collecting useless Full Ether in Tyrano Lair.
-Completely redid the setup for the elixer glitch to not require a reset or changes to the battle speed, which saved about 10 seconds on its own.
For whoever is judging, please replace the submission file with the provided userfile instead (author and co-author would be the same).
I'll re-encode the run in a few days to reflect the new changes. Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated!!
Edit: new encode is up.
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scrimpeh wrote:
Just one question, what's up with that weird wiggling when you drop into the water near Shantae's house? Is there a reason to it?
The wiggling is this game's version of dance falling, which inputwise requires entering and exiting dancing every 3 frames, elsewise Shantae will just stay hovering in the air. It's done to skip a sinking animation so I can just jump out of the water sooner.
scrimpeh wrote:
Pirate's Curse when
Well, there's a high potential for it in the future! I want to first go back and redo the any% TAS for the original Shantae though, along with doing 100% for Risky's Revenge.
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So with the latest updates to GlideN64, Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine is (mostly) working. However, it has a nasty crash bug that happens whenever the game tries to play any voice clips.
My assumption is due to the compression they use for the voice samples or something?? Regardless, if that could be looked into that'd be great.
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electricslide wrote:
I for one am quite happy that this run was submitted. It's well done. Piro and was0x can of course finish their superior run when they are finished. Until then this should stand.
It clearly wasn't well done if Piro and was0x have already obsoleted it with their WIP. Why bother accepting an already obsoleted run when we can just....not do that.
I'm voting No.
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New999 wrote:
1. Just stated, just because it's acceptable with them, doesn't mean it's acceptable with the main community. When it comes to this, just because they can use an invincibility code or an all abilities code for a category they made up, doesn't mean it's THAT legitimate.
2. That's basically what people are saying and agreeing with, banning specific in-game codes. But there's a funny thing you mention here and i'll bring it up with your Point 4, because it's quite honestly your biggest contradiction here.
3. You can still use alot of this tech without the need of cheating. The logic those runners use with the category is not universally accepted. They can use cheats for their runs if they want, but it doesn't mean the runs are valid just because it's accepted in their circle.
If we're going to get into semantics, every speedrun is just agreed upon rules for competition. 100% and low% for example are only considered more valid generally speaking due to in-game percentages, and many games don't even have those, yet they are accepted on the site regardless. There's plenty of TAS movies that can be considered just as arbitrary due to exactly what you just said, 'The logic those runners use with the category is not universally accepted. '
Because we've never accepted TASes that are for specific routes in order to demonstrate unique ways to play the games before, I suppose? Universal standards can't realistically apply to every category in existence.
For example, http://tasvideos.org/2661M.html this Symphony of the Night run obsoletes a run that would more rigorously defined by the actual game to be 'true' 100%. Does this make Forgone's run more arbitrary as a result? I wouldn't say so.
New999 wrote:
4. Every example you brought up are using LEVEL CODES. WARP CODES. Looking through all of them, i didn't see ANYTHING that screams "All Abilities Cheat Used" or "Used a cheat to gain this many key items so i can skip 90% of the game by going through all the locks". If this were allowed, then you might aswell allow Mega Man TASers and runners to go buck wild on using a code to unlock all abilities you have to unlock before fighting the first boss and act like THAT is a legit run. Level codes are allowed, for the most part. Cheats that unlock or give you items in a non-legit way aren't allowed. This run isn't valid and those RTA runs aren't legit.
It's funny you mention that, because there ARE runs on the site that do this.
http://tasvideos.org/802M.html The Biker Mice From Mars TAS, as I've already stated, uses an in-game code that 'allows me to start at the last (sixth) round of at the Championship mode with Vinnie, at difficulty level 'Super Hard'. It also gives me fully upgraded 'Engine'-parts and 'Shot'-parts.'
http://tasvideos.org/2059M.html This currently published Mega Man X TAS uses a failed code to get all the weapons and skip half the game without the dash boots.
So using your own definition, that is 'Cheats that unlock or give you items in a non-legit way aren't allowed. ', this means these runs are illegitimate then. If you agree they are legitimate, how is doing the same thing here not acceptable but these runs doing it is?
You also didn't read the specification of the rule regarding codes, that is:
Movie Rules wrote:
" When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player, neither through official instructions nor during gameplay."
I specified BfBB doesn't have warp codes to demonstrate this is the fastest way to beat the game without, like, making the category 'All Cheats Except That One', or something. If the game had a warp code then it'd be a more complicated issue, but it doesn't.
Regardless, level codes would fall under the exact same blanket definition you're saying should cause this run to not be accepted. That's why it's not very useful for discussing this run's merits, there's already been precedent for this exact same thing.
New999 wrote:
5. Good for you. I also like some of the tech used. However, it can be used in a much better way instead of the way it was done here and the way it WAS done here hurts this TAS greatly, so ultimately it's a no for me.
Lastly, whatever merits this TAS has became null and void once the rules were broken. Call me an "elitist" all you want, but she's in the wrong and you're really only weakening this TAS further with this pathetic evidence.
I don't think evidence can get much stronger the directly quoting the rules and how the rules are being implemented on the site. I guess we should remove all those other TASes then since they also 'break' the same rule you're trying to defend, which is of course an absurd thing to do for a hobby geared towards entertainment and optimization of specific rule sets.
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So I'm voting yes for five reasons.
The first is this is a very competitive category in the community, with 87 people having done runs of it. (RTA WR right here https://www.speedrun.com/bfbb/run/m3orlwgm). Thus, it's recognized as legitimate in the RTA community.
The second is there are no warp codes in the game, thus this is genuinely the fastest way to beat the game without any external hacks, which means the run is not arbitrarily restricting itself further and this would be the fastest way to beat the game from power on unless you were to specifically ban in-game codes, which would just be Any%.
The third is that other well-respected categories use in-game codes in order to simulate different contexts to run, for example NG+ and 100% w/In-game cheats, which are also high tech categories that use the exact same codes as this run, so banning this under this blanket rule would also ban these categories from submission.
(Seriously, watch some NG+ runs and contrast them with Any% if you don't believe me. https://www.speedrun.com/bfbb/full_game#NG%2B)
The fourth is we have runs on the site ALREADY that use in-game codes to simulate certain situations, for example the currently starred Biker Mice From Mars run ( http://tasvideos.org/802M.html ), or how about skipping half the game with a level password? ( http://tasvideos.org/1296M.html ).
Oh but wait, I thought in-game codes were forbidden? I mean, that's what the rule says:
Movie Rules wrote:
"Cheats, debugging codes, and arcade continues are not allowed
This includes any in-game codes[1], input sequences such as the Konami Code, as well as immediately accessible hidden menus."
With the addendum:
Movie Rules wrote:
" When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools. Codes are considered secret if the game never tells them to the player, neither through official instructions nor during gameplay."
Which would actually mean movies, that, for example, use a level password ( http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C4020Y.html ) would be banned under this rule if it were strict, which it specifies it isn't:
Movie Rules wrote:
'These rules are not strict, but are motivated by the same concept as the guideline that says you should play on the hardest difficulty. As such, you can use a code to unlock the hardest difficulty, although it's better to first ask on the forums if this is a good idea. Indeed, sometimes it may make the movie worse!'
Which would kind of indicate that there needs to be more discussion about this then, like, linking to the rules and voting No, don't you think?
Thus the fifth reason is, well, I like the movie and would like to see it published. A lot of really cool tricks were used to beat the game extremely quickly, including TAS-only instant cruise boosts, and it really demonstrates how broken the game can be.
Final note:
New999 wrote:
You can still have an interesting and entertaining TAS without the need of cheats. It is very possible to make such a TAS with this game. The cheats you used ultimately make this look extremely weak and boring, no matter what tricks you used here.
It's also, as Memory stated, against Movie Rules to use cheats in the way you did. Just because your community accepts it, doesn't mean the whole TAS community is going to give you a passing mark and a pat on the back.
Give us a normal any% tas with some of what you showed and maybe that'll be accepted and good, but otherwise, this TAS is doneso.
Go away with this extreme condescension that implies she DIDN'T work hard on this TAS and she wants this accepted for 'a pat on the back'. That's extremely elitist to assume. Let's actually discuss the merits of this movie instead.
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How much can theoretically be skipped due to this now?
In the submission text for the OG run you said to keep the game from freezing:
"This requires (1) dropping down the hole into the Lost Underworld (this sets a flag that gets Apple Kid & Dr. Andronuts to appear in Saturn Valley), and (2) beating Ness's Nightmare in Magicant (this sets a flag that gets Dr. Andronuts to ask for the meteor piece). Thus, the game involves rushing through until we're able to glitch-warp, dropping down the hole to the Lost Underworld (and death-warping back to Threed), glitch-warping to Magicant & beating Ness's Nightmare, and then continuing the game like you normally would after finishing Magicant."
So does this mean everything else can be skipped since the flags are not important?
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
