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This was a fun watch. I would vote for publication to its own separate branch, consistent with past precedent surrounding this particular game. While that precedent, itself, may be somewhat at odds with the way TASvideos likes to handle branches in general, I think it may be okay as S3K is one of the main entries in the entire Genesis library, partly because of the sheer amount of content that it has as one game spanning two carts.
With three playable characters, four if you count Sonic and Tails together (2P mode), and even more if you consider transformations separately which doesn't seem that unreasonable considering each one has its own unique skillset, spritesheet, and physics... Character selection in S3K affects everything from controls/abilities, routing, cinematics and endings, to unlockables. Sometimes, these differences are actually quite significant. Whereas other times, they're barely noticeable. But they are always still there, technically.
But in the end I think feos is a good judge and I trust his judgement either way, I just wanted to deposit my two cents. Congrats Kaan55 on another fine work!
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Hey Evil_3D and Kaan55! Congratulations on achieving special Star ranking. At the end of the day, what you guys have created is a real and lasting contribution to culture. I hope you'll be able to look back on this project for years to come as a source of personal pride. It was an honor working with you both. If you guys are still struggling, pressed for time, with regards to the submission text and if you think I may be able to help in any way then I welcome you to hit me up privately. I may have more time on my hands... Also thanks to everyone for their kind comments in the submission thread, ages ago now, and also welcome back Marzojr - looking forward to whatever you may end up producing!
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So, this is dumb, but for lack of other conversation I'd like to go ahead and suggest/recommend the following.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=063o22FBjVshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sa6jusKIss
Yes, at the same time - one muted, take a wild guess which. I'm still doing it but seem to be having pretty good results with the TAS 40-45 seconds behind. In doing so it occurs to me, by the way, that when laymen watch AIZ they might be like "Wtf?" but when those who know do they'll be like, "Damn..." It took balls, you guys, to do it the way that you did... I still think it was a good decision.
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This was so awesome. Amazing! Thanks for posting. How did you manage to make it back down the mountain so smoothly? I seem to recall that was an issue for me at the time...
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Hey all. I confess I haven't been following the thread very closely lately but I was just curious how things were going on the Atlas version of the ST rings TAS? Also thought I'd weigh in on the following...
kaan55 wrote:
Well spz1 was all him. hcz1 I found out I could use the same clip I used to get into Sonic's area in lrz1. I even found the lowest spot you could do it off of which is 295 with a subpixel range of 48-87.
Here's 2 more discoveries. Apperently it's possible for Knuckles to get all the signpost monitors in icz through pretty much the same means as Sonic and Tails. Except you kill his own act 1 boss first.
Are you saying you managed to glitch into Sonic's starting area in LRZ1 as Knuckles? That's huge, if so! I tried for ages to do this and couldn't, so, congratulations if you did and if so then could you please share more about this?
Regarding the signpost monitors: interesting, I actually just rewatched the ST rings TAS the other day and I remember wondering at the time whether this very thing might be possible with Knuckles. It's such a cool glitch too, and amazing to watch as a viewer.
kaan55 wrote:
Alright so I felt like we should discuss something for improved Knuckles ring attack. I found a way we could allow Knuckles to collect rings by disabling his Super/Hyper transformation.
Only problem is this requires the use of a game genie code. Considering the only purpose of this code is to allow Knuckles to collect big rings without having to deal with his transformation do you think they would allow this?
That would be pretty epic if the improved version included giant rings. All things considered I think this game genie code would be a reasonable exception to TASVideos rules although I wouldn't necessarily expect them to accept it, and fair enough. S3 Complete being such a well known and well done hack helps the case for using that instead of the official version, but - and this may be a minor issue - it's still not the official version; more importantly, doesn't it also include numerous bug fixes that can't be disabled? From the perspectives of both the author and the audience of such a TAS, that could either be a good thing or a bad thing.
One other option could be to just allow super/hyper transformations.
In any case, one thing to note regarding a Knuckles rings TAS improvement is the (I think) 3 additional rings that may or may not be available to Knuckles, newly discovered embedded in the wall somewhere in FBZ by kaan55 and Evil_3D.
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Thanks Evil_3D. I'm glad you like it. I hope you do add your own personal thoughts and opinions as much as possible, I think your English is just great. I look forward to Kaan55's thoughts, too.
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Evil_3D wrote:
Honestly, I really would like you to tell the story of this project from your perspective, after all this movie exist thanks to you!
How does this sound? I figure I'll post it openly, here, so that everyone can have an opportunity to verify accuracy or warn me of any potential cringe or length issues which, let's be honest, I'm wont to do ;p
For readability of this post, I've put it in italics.
The thing about ring attack TASes is, in a traditional TAS, the idea is to go from beginning to end of a level or game as quickly as possible - but, in a ring attack, it is to go from one ring or set of rings to the next, in such a way that results in the overall level or game completion with the most rings in the shortest time.
Hopefully that gives some perspective on the extraordinary amount of work that ring attack TASes require.
And not to diminish other forms of TASes, which already in their own right require tremendous effort and expertise. It was in fact one such TAS - a traditional Sonic TAS, by SprintGod - which caught my eye in 2012. This was my introduction to TASes as a thing, and it blew my mind and inspired me to get into the TASing scene.
Around that time, new discoveries by the likes of MarzoJr, Nitsuja, Aglar, and others, of game-breaking bugs were resulting in Sonic 3 & Knuckles TASes that were faster and more impressive than ever before. However, there was a growing concensus within the community that such runs, for all their glory, deprived the viewer of the kind of intensive gameplay that makes TASes so attractive in the first place - for which Sonic games of old are ideal, by their fast-paced nature.
Yet, there seemed to be no solution to this dilemma given TASvideos' rightfully strict guidelines governing submissions. And yet again, in spite of this, in 2013 I began work on my own personal vision of what that solution could look like. And hence in 2014 I submitted my Knuckles ring attack TAS of S3K. It was well-received, luckily, and I said then that I hoped that one day a TAS just exactly like this one might eventually emerge.
And now it has.
And it's all thanks to the enterprising Evil_3D, who founded the project, and his inventive co-author Kaan55, who joined some time later, after offering several new strategies to get even more rings; whereas my own participation was primarily planning-related.
I would like to think that my TAS had the same impact on Evil_3D and Kaan55 as SprintGod's had on me. It was a pleasure working with them and getting to know them, albeit in the limited capacity that I did.
And I give them credit for staying true to my original vision of what a ring attack TAS could, and I daresay, should, be. (Could or should be, at least, for now... I can't deny that it would be fun to see Super or Hyper characters zooming around, collecting rings someday, now that this current milestone has been reached.)
I hope that you the viewer, find as much enjoyment as I do in watching this run, and as I and others on the forums did, in watching its development.
-The Yogwog
A few additional notes:
-I realize this is quite long, and I'm not exactly sure what you were looking for, so I had also prepared a much shorter version with less "historical context." But, you can think of this as like a forward in a book.
-I wrote this assuming you, Evil_3D, and Kaan55, will provide more detailed accounts of your individual roles (not to suggest it's somehow not okay if you don't want to - I'm just saying, that's what I did).
-You might want to include, perhaps in just a link to a separate Google document or something, any materials you composed in process of creating this run - maps, notes, etc. It may come in handy to any potential future TASers inspired by this... Plus, who knows, some might just be interested to have a look.
-Other than that, I hope the Atlas encode, the submission text, and the submission itself are completed soon & let me know if you need anything, or of any changes to the above you might like me to make.
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Ah, yes, I saw this pop up in my subscription feed on YT recently - been looking forward to the submission thread, and finally seeing the whole run in all its glory. I'm sure if I had that, I could sit down and come up with a list of specific things, but, in general, here's a few ideas:
-Discuss who was involved in what roles and maybe a bit of the origins & history (think re-syncs) of this years-long project.
-Define the goal, including why certain macro decisions were or were not made (the non-transformation rule, monitor & sRing inclusion, character selection, etc).
-Rings table or chart of some kind, w/ explanation for any missed/impossible rings & DDZ rings, etc.
-Any specific moments in the run that come to mind for you for any reason, anything you feel as particularly noteworthy or interesting - that might not belong in the dedicated level notes section?
-Lastly, I'd like to suggest linking to the wonderful Atlas encode that was recently produced by... I forget who, sorry... because it's a nice visual aid that could help viewers understand the "strange" antics in their first-impression of the run, the first stage, AIZ.
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Post music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41Y3PKkkePk
Hey, congratulations Evil_3D! You turned out to be a great TASer. This was your project, even if I submitted a few rough prototypes a long time ago. And you too, Kaan55, what an incredible ally to Evil_3D you turned out to be! I only regret not getting to know you two better, and maybe not helping out more but alas, I'm past my prime, and you two are better than I ever was. You know, after I published my Knuckles run 4 years ago, I thought that someday somebody might emerge who would do a Sonic & Tails run just like this. I couldn't have asked for a better couple of guys to do it. I honestly don't believe this run will ever be obsoleted - certainly not by a couple of new-comers, anyway! Please do comment on any one of my YT videos (so I get the notification) before you publish this. I'm watching the thread and progress as usual, but I'd just so hate to miss the opportunity to cast my vote and voice my appreciation. Perhaps more than anyone else on Earth, other than you two obviously, this TAS means so much to me. Thank you both so much for all your incredible effort all these months. Good luck once again going forward, what little bit there finally is left to go! I'll see you guys at the finish line! Congratulations!!!
Oh, and Kaan... if by any chance you somehow find a way to collect even just 1 more ring in AIZ any time soon, please kindly keep it to yourself :p
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As the end of the game draws slowly but surely near, is there anything either of you know of at this point that you'd like me to cover as a topic in the future submission text? Also is there a YT video or playlist of the full movie?
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To be honest, guys, I'm not sure I deserve to have my name in the title anymore. It's all you two. Would I be grateful it was? Yes, absolutely. Do I feel I ought to get anything more than an honorable mention in the credits? Like I said, I'm not sure. In the end, it doesn't really matter. On a tangentially related note, I'd encourage you both, if you're at all able, to stream & commentate your recording processes. I'd watch! I could see a YT channel growing tremendously, from that alone. It would be a new & unique kind of content. This is something I wished to do, and would have done, but for a variety of reasons, couldn't & didn't. Anyway, again, best of luck on this project.
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This is going to be such an epic TAS. The amount of effort, dedication, and skill that's going into this is incredible. Hasn't it been about a year since you first began working on this, Evil_3D? What did you guys ultimately decide about the rings in AIZ2? I think it was 327 before, now 335? So you opted to collect max possible, risk entertainment? That's what I would have done/recommended. Just saying. Personally I didn't find the 335 video boring at all, on the contrary I found it more entertaining that you went out of the way to get the extras. But yeah sure, I'm biased because Sonic 3K is afterall my favorite game. None the less keep up the great work, Evil_3D & Kaan55!
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Evil_3D wrote:
Not sure atm but I think around March/May of the next year and maybe will be mi last TAS but I do not like to get ahead of the facts.
Yeah I'd say you're due for a break by then, anyway. Ring Attack TASes are really labor intensive grinds, and you've been doing those and more pretty regularly for a while already. Whatever happens, hope you (and everyone) enjoy their time as TASers while they can, and come away someday feeling fond about it as I did. TASing is the best videogame.
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Evil_3D wrote:
@Theyogwog - Here are all of the test runs of the next levels, practically the movie is complete, I only need to add some tas-magic-skills and improved that runs, that will take time of course. All is maded by kaan, SSZ and DDZ is by me.
Holy shit. So, curious, approximately when do you expect to submit?
I've not watched these yet but I'm gonna enjoy it. How lucky I am...
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Evil_3D wrote:
Good luck kaan you will need it, specially in the tunnel tricks and the ring monitor to access in Sonic's area, this tricks are very hard to do.
Aha! So at first I wasn't sure if this was actually hard or if it was just me, then I believe WST indicated that it was in fact hard, and now, this removes all doubt. I understand it's beyond frame perfect - that monitor jump to Sonic's route in AIZ - but I'd really like to know exactly how hard it is for something I'm writing, incidentally. I've heard terms like double frame perfect or pixel perfect, but Idek. Maybe our friend WST knows, and could clarify?
WST wrote:
This TAS should be even slightly faster than that one, and I should be able to send the files if you like, Kaan55.
Ah... just wanted to drop in and say, I'm excited this TAS is finally nearing the home stretch. SOZ lies before you guys, and that's daunting, but it seems like Kaan55's got LRZ on lockdown and after that, SSZ should be fun, and then it's just DEZ basically and it's all done. Best of luck!!
Edit: By the way, and if I wasn't completely useless I would do this myself but, I do hope you guys have been periodically watching the entire movie from start to finish, including the initial run that isn't featured as part of this TAS which serves as the basis for it, to make sure it's acceptable for publication. I imagine you have, but you never know...
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Oh my God. I'm speechless. You don't know how many hours I spent trying to get the stair clip... I never would have thought that innocuous lava pit was the missing key. Well done, m8. You may not go down in history for this discovery but, in my own personal history book (that doesn't really exist, sorry), you've definitely earned a spot. Seriously though, amazing! Between this and your contributions to Sonic and Tails' ring count in AIZ, you've done some really great work.
How did you find it? Just curious the story behind it.
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Funny is right, in a good way. Loved the ring chase at the end, I hope in the final recording that can be kept up as long as possible. And great finish too. I'm looking forward to the next installment in the sega of the genesis of this amazing TAS (puns intended)!
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This is off-topic, but since this is the only Sonic forum I go to I wanted to ask if anyone here would like to help me with something. I'm looking for someone who would be able to provide me with about 15 minutes, tops, of quality video footage of certain, very basic Sonic 3 gameplay for a level design analysis video I'm wanting to make. This is only a one-time request for now, depending on how the final video turns out there may be the opportunity to help out in this and possibly other ways on a recurring basis. And if I do end up going public with the video, of course I would credit you for your part. So, please PM me if interested.
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kaan55 wrote:
Next weekend? You mean like a week from now? There's only like 60% MGZ2 left (I'm judging this with the ingame timer). We should easily be able to finish it by then.
Yes. Cool.
Unless for some reason Evil_3D prefers to do it. I don't particularly care that much, either way. I just thought I'd offer. I mean I've always wanted to help out in such a way as this, but I wasn't, am not, and may never be "fit for purpose," for a variety of reasons. But since he offered co-authorship, I feel it's incumbent upon me to at least try, given that now might just be the perfect, and only, opportunity. And who knows, if it goes well that might open the doorway for me to provide additional help in the future.
Looks like it might be time to dust off the old gaming PC, a budget rig I built in 2012, which mostly turned out to be a $850 Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles machine. An investment that continues paying dividends. Even for lack of a blast-capable processor, which for some mysterious reason I've never been able to find in-stock anywhere. And believe me, I checked; I checked with my local BestBuy on a daily basis for years. But eventually, those bastards banned me from the store, for reasons that also remain a mystery to me.
I do have one theory... but I don't have time to explain, by now GeekSquad has triangulated my GPS coordinates, and Craig from computing will be here any minute to bring me back to corporate headquarters, and... it doesn't matter, he'll never take me alive, no matter who he shapeshifts into. You reading this, Craig? I know you are. Just try imitating my close friends and family supposedly worrying about my allegedly deteriorating mental health, again. See what happens! Cocks shotgun.
*Ahem.*
Well, that was quite the digression. Forget I said that. It was totally all a joke. Yes... a joke...
Evil_3D wrote:
Seeing that I decided to redo CNZ would you be interested in trying another level in particular to remove the rust? Maybe Lava reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death egg or whatever you want, would be very interesting / fun to see and would serve us in the future
Sure, no problem bud. I'm happy you've chosen the more difficult, but more rewarding path (i.e. getting the rings). And a little relieved not to have the pressure on myself of learning how to TAS better than ever by this time next week. I suppose if I really wanted to, I could practice against any one of your levels, not just CNZ, and hone my skills all the same but more gradually. Which maybe a more practical solution.
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Evil_3D wrote:
I would like to see the opinion of theyogwog too.
Hey. Glad I managed to avoid the miniature-shitstorm. It was a shitposty comment, not really worth getting too butthurt over. You and kaan55 are doing great things, software concerns beyond your control notwithstanding.
More on point, you might not like what I have to say, nor do I like having to say it, but... well, I personally don't agree with going forward without the rings. I always told myself when I was TASing KTE's run, that if ever I missed a ring, I would go back for it. Now I know that's just me, and I don't necessarily expect you guys to abide by the same credo, but whether or not you do, the same rule applies. That is, that a ring attack that fails to collect all possible rings, fails to achieve its primary goal.
So, that makes it less likely to be considered acceptable for publication here on TASVideos. Possible time improvements are one thing; known ring improvements are, perhaps, another. Although, now that there's a precedent for this category of runs established by my own RA, that might not be so much of a concern. But then again, given TAS tools and the benefits the TAS approach affords, this is still a pretty big deal, technically. Plus, especially since the rings were missed on the very first level, and there are several of them, it just looks bad.
Having said that, however, do I realistically think the run would get rejected on the basis of not having collected those rings, if it were submitted without having collected them? Probably not, or at least I would hope not. But that's up to whoever judges the run to decide, of course. And of course, it really comes down to you, Evil_3D, and what you want to do, as you're the one entering all of the inputs (or most of them, so far), and so it's fundamentally your run and your decision. And I can definitely understand if you choose not go back and redo things, and I'll continue supporting you in any case.
But I would encourage you (and kaan55) to collect them, if at all possible, by any means necessary. Keep in mind, we've got the rest of the rings on lock-down, so in theory this will be the only such instance in which this type of thing will happen for the entire rest of the run. And not to trivialize the time and effort it would take to redo things, because it would take a lot of each, but, I think if you did do it you'd find that it's a lot different than the first time, so not as tedious and mundane as it may seem. And also a lot easier and less time consuming than the first time. And finally, odds are you'd actually end up doing it better (faster) than ever.
And assuming you restart from CNZ, that's "only" 2 levels - it could be worse. And for what it's worth, I remember CNZ from my run as being one of if not the easiest and quickest levels to TAS, largely because of the straight, smooth floors there.
I regret not being able to offer more assistance in terms of actually entering inputs. I'm rusty, and even when I was at my best, my best was still somewhat below the level Evil_3D and this run in general are at, as evidenced by the MGZ comparison. But, using the existing run as a guide or something to compete against might give me the edge I need to get my inputs up to par. And I do have a little bit of free time coming up, next weekend - enough to devote 24+ hours to TASing and maybe, therefore, to complete CNZ. I would be willing and should be able to have a go at it, anyway, if you guys could get to there by then.
TL;DR: I understand if you choose to forgo the rings, but I would encourage you not to do so because reasons. If it helps, I could try redoing CNZ, possibly.
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So, fundamentally, the reason Sonic and Tails can't get all of KTE's 97 rings is because his part of the level doesn't fully load for them, right? So parts of his level literally aren't there, including rings located in those parts. They don't exist in Sonic and Tails' campaign, technically. So it's practically and even theoretically impossible that they could ever collect them, much like it is that KTE could ever collect any rings from DEZ (without cheats). And those weren't included in KTE's ring table. Just like those 3 rings in KTE's SSZ, his final boss level, which are not included in the S+T rings table for SSZ. And rightfully so, I think. Unlike AIZ, however, those 3 rings occur in a separate level entirely, even if it happens to share the name, SSZ, with a level accessible to Sonic and Tails; KTE's SSZ boss is analogous to S+T's LRZ boss. Now, S+T's LRZ boss rings were included in KTE's ring table but in hindsight I think that was a mistake. In any case, KTE's SSZ is inaccessible to S+T in both practice and principle, right? The same is true of whatever rings are not loaded in his AIZ when playing as S+T. So I think it would be wrong, not to mention inconsistent, to include unloaded KTE AIZ rings in S+T's rings table.
TL;DR: I think I will have to adjust the ring table so the total rings in AIZ for S+T should be what it is now, less any of those 97 rings that don't actually appear in the level regardless of whether or not they can be collected. And of course, the max rings will be changed to reflect those that can be.
