Posts for Josh

Posted: 9/10/2006 6:52 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Here's my current WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1926/zelda-q2-008.fcm
Posted: 9/9/2006 11:32 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've done it up to partway through Level 7 (the last one before Death Mountain). At present, I'm about 30 seconds ahead of Sleepz' run. Anyone interested in seeing the WIP?
Posted: 9/8/2006 4:35 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Just posting a status update - I don't have a new WIP yet, but I haven't given up. Right now, I'm experiencing some difficulty in Level 5 because of bomb management. The first room full of Blue Darknuts is a problem, because the diamond-shaped rock structure in the center of the screen tends to prevent all of the Darknuts from clustering together. To make matters worse, I have to spend 2 Bombs just to get here - and I need at least one more to get to the room with the 12-Bomb upgrade. I may have to resort to the Magic Wand to bludgeon Darknuts at some point, though I'd rather avoid that if possible since it is a bit slower. I'm going to try a couple of tactics and see what I can come up with.
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:37 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Level 2 is now completed: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1764/swordless-wip014.fcm It's convenient that the Magic Wand was already selected from fighting the Gleeok in Level 8, since it works very well against the several roomfuls of Ropes that must be cleared.
Posted: 8/20/2006 10:13 AM
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Josh
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Posts: 23
I've now completed Level 8. IMO, this is the third most difficult level in a swordless quest (9 is the toughest by far, followed by 6). Two mandatory rooms full of Blue Darknuts plus a four-headed Gleeok... fun :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1664/swordless-wip013.fcm
Posted: 8/12/2006 6:18 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Thanks for the compliment, DrJones. I've got a new WIP that finishes off Level 4: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1592/swordless-wip012.fcm This was much more difficult than I thought. The enemies were most uncooperative, and I had to redo the whole level from scratch one time to get them to behave in an acceptable fashion. I optimized the Gleeok fight as much as I could (generally, it takes 32 frames for Gleeok to become vulnerable again).
Posted: 8/6/2006 12:02 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've got a new WIP; this one goes up to the end of Level 6. That last Wizzrobe room was a real pain. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1537/swordless-wip011.fcm
Posted: 8/2/2006 2:08 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Rather than impose artificial limitations upon the US release of SMB2, why not do a run for Doki Doki Panic, the FDS game upon which it was based? Doki Doki Panic requires that the levels be completed four times, once with each character.
Posted: 7/28/2006 3:17 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I'm not convinced that the Power Bracelet is even necessary. There's a reasonably straightforward path from the starting point to Levels 8, 2, and 5, in that order. If I did have the Power Bracelet, I'd have to go through extra screens and then take warps at least twice (once to do Level 5, then a second time to do 2 and 8), and I'm not sure this would be any faster, especially with having to listen to "TAKE ANY ROAD YOU WANT" twice, plus an extra Up+A sequence. Also, I'd have to find another way to get the 100 Rupees to purchase the Bomb upgrade in Level 5. By the way, does anyone know if it is faster to get back to Level 4 by walking from the start, or by Whistling to Level 1 and going from there?
Posted: 7/27/2006 5:20 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've currently just obtained the Magic Wand. Here's the newest WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1444/swordless-wip010.fcm As usual, any suggestions are appreciated. My next objective is to complete Level 6. Then, I'm going to do Up+A, then Level 8, followed by Level 2, then Level 5 (including purchasing the Bomb upgrade), then Whistle to 3, go to Level 7, complete it, Whistle to 1, and go to Death Mountain.
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:29 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I can't fight the Gleeok at the end of Level 4 yet because I don't have the Magic Wand. Without a sword, the only way to damage him is by smacking him with the Wand. Other weapons don't work.
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:42 AM
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Josh
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Posts: 23
My run up to the Ladder is now optimized by over 20 seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1425/swordless-wip009.fcm I'm not sure if there are still time-shaving tricks for Level 4 that I'm missing. Any additional suggestions?
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:00 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Hitting the center Rupee icon in the money making game is 30 frames quicker than hitting the one on the left. The Rupee on the right is the slowest of all. I was able to manipulate luck so that 3 of the 4 gambles gave 50 Rupees at the center; however, one had to use the left icon, since waiting it out would have actually taken longer. (It was over 30 frames and the pattern I wanted hadn't shown up - so it was faster just to take it on the left). I'm working on re-doing Level 4 up to the Ladder. This time, I omitted the room with the slew of Keese; I can always go back and do that later if I need the Key. I figured out a pretty good pattern for the Vires that leaves me with 7 Bombs at the end of the room, and I'm going to try a bunch of different patterns in the room that hides the Ladder until I find one that works well. Since the Like Likes take three Bombs apiece, they're the biggest problem. If I can hit them all at once, it would make things go a lot quicker.
Posted: 7/23/2006 12:56 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've posted a new WIP; this one follows up Level 1 by going to Level 4 and obtaining the Ladder. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1416/swordless-wip008.fcm I'm not at all sure that this is the most optimal method to handle this task. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd like to hear them. The two most difficult rooms were the room with 5 Vires amidst a maze of rivers, and the room with the passage to the Ladder (which had 3 Like Likes and 2 Zols). When fighting the Vires, I had to not only kill them as quickly as possible, but also make them leave behind Bombs - otherwise I would have no way to finish off the Like Likes. The Like Likes were difficult because they take three Bombs apiece. I tried to optimize the placement as well as I could, but there was still some standing-around time. This would have been much easier with the Wooden Arrows, but that would also have required an extra side trip. By the way, the reason that I have extra Rupees from gambling is that I am going to purchase the Wooden Arrows and the Enemy Bait on the way to Level 6 (which comes next). After that, I'll have to use the money making game again to get 100 Rupees for one Bomb upgrade. I don't think it is possible to defeat all the necessary Wizzrobes in Death Mountain without a maximum capacity of at least 12 Bombs.
Posted: 7/22/2006 1:17 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I managed to shave 24 frames off of my last result: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1414/swordless-wip007.fcm Omitting the Boomerang wouldn't save much, if any, additional time - the Goriyas appear in the way, and I would have to walk around them if I didn't blow them up. And if I'm going to blow them up, I might as well nab the Boomerang. There might be a couple of Keese rooms where this could be useful. Also, it might help if it is necessary to pile up multiple enemies to destroy them all at once with a Bomb, in case the spawns aren't cooperative. Next, I'm going to use Up+A, then go left and gamble four times, then go up and buy the Blue Candle, and then attempt to obtain the Ladder from Level 4. Hopefully, I can make it through without Wooden Arrows (which would be most quickly picked up on the way to Level 6). The biggest challenge is going to be clearing the Ladder room - three Like Likes and two Zols, if I remember correctly. Like Likes take three Bombs apiece, which is going to require some *very* careful manipulation to get them all in place at once.
Posted: 7/21/2006 5:49 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I reworked Level 1 to save a couple of seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1412/swordless-wip006.fcm I managed to get the Stalfos holding the Key in the river-filled room to show up in a more optimal position. I also incorporated your suggestions for Aquamentus and picking up the Triforce. Also, I realized that on the original run I went half a square too far south in the Wallmaster room. I'm going to give one more go at seeing if I can squeeze more optimizations out of Level 1. If you have any more suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them. Do you think I need the Boomerang? If not, I could redo the end of the level and save a couple of seconds on that.
Posted: 7/19/2006 11:02 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Thanks for the encouraging words, Hanzou. I've got a fourth WIP posted: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1407/swordless-wip004.fcm After about 50 tries, I managed to fix the Manhandla fight. Not only do I save frames, but, unlike the last run, I was also able to pick up the Heart Container while waiting for the dropped Bombs to materialize, without losing any frames. That may help when sustaining damage boosts against stronger enemies. The solution turned out to be taking a different walking path two rooms back. Luck manipulation in Zelda is weird. This updated run also completes Level 1. I'm not 100% sure this is optimal; once again, any suggestions are welcomed, and I'll redo whatever I have to. The one thing I was not able to optimize no matter how hard I tried was the positions of the three Stalfos in the river-filled room. One of them is carrying a Key. The best I could do was to change his walking path so I could hit him with a Bomb - otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way to the end of the right path to mug him. I picked up the Heart Container since doing so doesn't slow me down - as it is, I reach the door 1 frame before the shutter opens.
Posted: 7/19/2006 1:51 PM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Hey Josh please post another WIP so we can get back on topic.
I incorporated your suggestions, Hanzou, and managed to shave a couple seconds off of the completion up to Level 3. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1401/swordless-wip002.fcm I managed to optimize the Bomb drops better (removing the need to kill that Blue Octorok in the overworld), and used a damage boost in the room that has the staircase leading to the Raft. Unfortunately, Manhandla appears in a worse position this time, and I can't fix him - even if I set the Bomb in the previous room in a different place, or enter the boss room on a different frame, it doesn't change. After this, I'm going to use Up+A and then complete Level 1. Even with only the Bombs, that level should not be a problem. I wonder if it's faster to use the "Bad Butler" glitch (leave and come back in), or if it's faster to get an additional Key later on?
Posted: 7/17/2006 9:53 PM
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Josh
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Posts: 23
Hanzou wrote:
A couple comments: I don't fully understand how drops work in this game, but I don't think you should have stopped to kill the Octorok if you can get bombs from red Darknuts. Also, why did you kill some Zols when you could have walked right past them?
I re-watched the run, and you may have a point about the Bomb drop. Theoretically, if I could still get the Darknuts to leave Bombs, then I could shave a second or two off by not waiting for the overworld drop before coming in. However, that would mean finishing with only 4 Bombs instead of 7, and this would have to be compensated for later on. As for the Zols, clearing that room is needed to win a Key. I kill four of the five Zols with a single Bomb on the first pass (on the way to the Raft), and the fifth Zol on the second pass (on the way to the Triforce). The reason I did this in two passes is that I don't have to wander around to kill the last Zol and get the Key, as I would if I did it all at once. You don't see the Key because I'm walking over it the moment it appears, but watch the Key counter at the top as I bomb the last Zol and walk through the middle of the room.
Posted: 7/17/2006 9:19 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've created a work-in-progress video that gets the 30 Rupees from the Armos (as suggested by Hanzou), then uses Up+A, then buys Bombs from the closest shop, then clears Level 3 using just the Bombs. I manipulated the enemy drops so that I finish the level with 7 Bombs and have an adequate supply throughout. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1392/swordless-wip001.fcm Unlike the previous, rejected run, this one takes damage to save time. I tried to avoid any dead spots; in a few areas where brief waits were unavoidable (e.g. waiting for Bombs to materialize so that they could be picked up), I had Link walk slowly by using the directional pad every other frame. IMO, that looks better than just standing there for a while. Comments and constructive criticism are welcome.
Posted: 7/17/2006 6:02 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Hanzou wrote:
Getting the power bracelet and 100 rupies way up northeast stuck out to me as an unnecessarily long way to start out the run. I've reached Gannon swordless on a console before, but I didn't need to get the Power Bracelet early and I don't see why you should. Have you considered the following basic route? *Go northeast and get 30 rupies from an Armos secret. *Up+A *Buy bombs for 20 *Beat level 1 (edit: 3?)
Well, the 30-Rupee secret beneath the Armos is 10 screens away from the start. (Up, right, up, right, right, right, right, right, up, up). The Power Bracelet is indeed longer, around 20 screens. So your route might well be faster. On the other hand, it needs to be taken into account whether there are other areas that the Power Bracelet could be used to save time. Levels 2, 5, and 6 are all close to warp points, so this could help. I'll have to run a couple of experiments to see how this turns out.
Posted: 7/17/2006 4:22 AM
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Unfortunately, that previous thread hasn't had any activity in about two years.
Posted: 7/16/2006 9:50 PM
Post subject: Legend of Zelda - Swordless quest
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Josh
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Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
My first attempt at a swordless run (36:34) was rejected for inadequate optimization and poor pathing. I'm attempting to do a more highly optimized run at this time, and I'm pondering a choice of two different starting paths. The most obvious one is this: *Power Bracelet *Up+A *Warp to upper right quadrant *Down, right, up, right, right, up, get 100 Rupees *Up+A *Left, up, buy Blue Candle *Left, left, get Bombs from Blue Octorok *Left, down, right *Level 3 - get Raft, Up+A, defeat Manhandla and get Triforce segment *Left, up, left, burn bush, get 100 Rupees *Right, right, up, up, buy Wooden Arrows *Up, buy Enemy Bait *Up+A *Go to Level 1, get Bow, defeat Aquamentus and get Triforce segment (...) But I've recently considered another path, which may or may not be faster... *Power Bracelet *Up+A *Warp to upper right quadrant *Down, down, get 30 Rupees *Down, down, down, right, right, buy Bombs *Up+A *Left, gamble 4 times (need 60+80+60 = 200 Rupees total, plus ammo) *Up, buy Blue Candle *Left, left, get more Bombs from Blue Octorok *Up, up, buy Wooden Arrows *Up, buy Enemy Bait *Down, down, left, down, down, right *Level 3 - get Raft, Up+A, defeat Manhandla and get Triforce segment *Up+A *Go to Level 1, get Bow, defeat Aquamentus and get Triforce segment (...) Which path do you think would be optimal? Any different ideas?