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Posted: 7/18/2006 2:48 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Oh right. Silly question of mine about the Zols. I'm not sure what you're saying about 4 bombs vs 7. Around frame 8850 you left a bomb set sitting on the left side of the room. Walking over to pick that up would take less time than the extra walking and waiting required for the Octorok.
Posted: 7/18/2006 9:57 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Side note (and double-post!)
KDR_11k in the submission topic wrote:
Hm, the ending's kind of a bummer, I think such a run should pick up the lv3 sword but not use it until Ganon appears.
You're not alone in this opinion, but I think the majority would still prefer the run to be swordless rather than 99% sword-abstinent. In retrospect, my idea for a cheater ending (one of several options proposed in the off-topic discussion of the Outlands topic) seems a bit absurd for a publishable movie. By comparison, even the use of a Sonic Advance 1 cam-hack is difficult to agree upon even though that serves a much more viable purpose. However, I still wanted to somehow see the game "beaten" swordless, so I went ahead and made this alternate ending for my own entertainment, using a savestate from Josh's first run: Zelda 1 swordless director's cut (2 MB) I used a RAM patch code instead of a Game Genie-like patch. This was much easier to find although not as elegant because it requires the code (00AD:002) be turned on only at a certain point rather than throughout the whole run.
Posted: 7/19/2006 1:26 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Or how about, get to Ganon's room swordless just to prove you can, then run out to get the weakest sword in the game, and then run back in to beat him!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/19/2006 2:08 AM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Food wrote:
Or how about, get to Ganon's room swordless just to prove you can, then run out to get the weakest sword in the game, and then run back in to beat him!
Sounds familiar.
Food in the other topic wrote:
How about, once you get inside Gannnon's room, you run back to the start, grab the brown sword, run back to Gannnonn, and beat the game like that?
Posted: 7/19/2006 2:21 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
I wonder what responses I got to it!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/19/2006 5:08 AM
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KDR_11k
Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
Location: Germany
I thought Ganon can only take damage from the Lv3 sword?
Posted: 7/19/2006 7:33 AM
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4matsy
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498
No, any sword will do. It's just that with the wooden sword, he takes 15 hits instead of 4. XD Actually, I was thinking of this: grab whichever sword saves the most time, whenever it won't waste any time (of course, I haven't tested any paths; so it could be getting the magic sword a few dungeons before the end, or maybe even getting the wooden sword right at the beginning of the game...), then just don't use it until you get to Ganon. It'd still be a no-sword-using quest, up until Ganon; you'd just be grabbing a sword whenever it'd be most convenient. :p
Posted: 7/19/2006 8:30 AM
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xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Personally, I've always thought it would be best just to get the wooden sword before you go to 9. (So up+a before you whistle to 1 to pick it up.) You still shouldn't use it until you get to Ganon, but that eliminates the ridiculousness of going through level 9 twice, and you still do almost the whole game without even having any sword at all in your a-slot.
Posted: 7/19/2006 10:56 AM
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schneelocke
Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Or how about, get to Ganon's room swordless just to prove you can, then run out to get the weakest sword in the game, and then run back in to beat him!
Once you enter Ganon's room, you can't leave until you kill him, though. (Or can you? It's quite literally been ages since I played this game...)
Posted: 7/19/2006 12:28 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
schneelocke, up+A. Wow, so many of you here are obsessed with making an exception just for the sake of killing one extra green pig. Inevitably there would be more whining if such a movie were ever published. In that case my solution of encoding two movies (legitimate swordless and alternate ending) for one run would be the best compromise. That way, the author need not pick between some of these ideas such as going 100% swordfull and 99% stab-abstinent (KDR_11k and Walker Boh), making the run several minutes longer (Food), holding the white sword half the time (4matsy), or holding the wooden sword 15% of the time (xebra). Hey Josh please post another WIP so we can get back on topic.
Posted: 7/19/2006 12:35 PM
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schneelocke
Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1
hanzou wrote:
schneelocke, up+A.
That still works at that point? OK, interesting - thanks for the info. :)
Posted: 7/19/2006 1:51 PM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Hey Josh please post another WIP so we can get back on topic.
I incorporated your suggestions, Hanzou, and managed to shave a couple seconds off of the completion up to Level 3. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1401/swordless-wip002.fcm I managed to optimize the Bomb drops better (removing the need to kill that Blue Octorok in the overworld), and used a damage boost in the room that has the staircase leading to the Raft. Unfortunately, Manhandla appears in a worse position this time, and I can't fix him - even if I set the Bomb in the previous room in a different place, or enter the boss room on a different frame, it doesn't change. After this, I'm going to use Up+A and then complete Level 1. Even with only the Bombs, that level should not be a problem. I wonder if it's faster to use the "Bad Butler" glitch (leave and come back in), or if it's faster to get an additional Key later on?
Posted: 7/19/2006 9:58 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Great improvements to the Zol room and killing the Darknuts! About Manhandla: Yeah, the interdependencies of luck manipulation can be a real pain in this game. You'll never have a truly optimal solution. If you need a standard to go by, your luck manipulation must appear at least as optimized as Phil's. So far, your level 3 seems to have less unnecessary waiting compared to his movie (and that's impressive considering he has a sword). You might want to take a look at Baxter's (sword-using) WIP though, since it was supposedly about 3 seconds faster than Phil's after level 3. It's posted in some Zelda topic somewhere in this forum. Here is a damage boost you missed near the beginning of the game: octorok_damage_boost.fcm. I am sorry I did not point this out earlier, and it is understandable if there's a problem that this de-manipulates the Moblin arrow in the next room. About keys: Have you watched Bob Whoops' WIP (posted two pages back in this topic)? Did you read the discussion by him and Michael Fried about how Bob is one key short? The question seems to be whether that extra key should be obtained in level 1 using the reentry trick or picked up in another regular room of level 6. It sounds like Michael is certain level 6 is a better choice.
Posted: 7/19/2006 11:02 PM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Thanks for the encouraging words, Hanzou. I've got a fourth WIP posted: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1407/swordless-wip004.fcm After about 50 tries, I managed to fix the Manhandla fight. Not only do I save frames, but, unlike the last run, I was also able to pick up the Heart Container while waiting for the dropped Bombs to materialize, without losing any frames. That may help when sustaining damage boosts against stronger enemies. The solution turned out to be taking a different walking path two rooms back. Luck manipulation in Zelda is weird. This updated run also completes Level 1. I'm not 100% sure this is optimal; once again, any suggestions are welcomed, and I'll redo whatever I have to. The one thing I was not able to optimize no matter how hard I tried was the positions of the three Stalfos in the river-filled room. One of them is carrying a Key. The best I could do was to change his walking path so I could hit him with a Bomb - otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way to the end of the right path to mug him. I picked up the Heart Container since doing so doesn't slow me down - as it is, I reach the door 1 frame before the shutter opens.
Posted: 7/21/2006 3:57 AM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Comments: - Bob Whoops said he skipped both the reentry glitch and the first Stalfos key. Considering how fast these look in your run, I hope maybe he was wrong about those choices. If you plan on finishing level 1 with more keys, just make sure you know which keys to skip later on compared to Bob's WIP. - You should make sure that the Stalfos in the river-filled room keeps walking up so you can maul him for the key near the top of the screen. Manipulating this will probably require changing your path in an earlier room. - You placed the first bomb unnecessarily close to Aquamentus. - You wasted half a square when picking up the triforce.
Posted: 7/21/2006 5:49 PM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I reworked Level 1 to save a couple of seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1412/swordless-wip006.fcm I managed to get the Stalfos holding the Key in the river-filled room to show up in a more optimal position. I also incorporated your suggestions for Aquamentus and picking up the Triforce. Also, I realized that on the original run I went half a square too far south in the Wallmaster room. I'm going to give one more go at seeing if I can squeeze more optimizations out of Level 1. If you have any more suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them. Do you think I need the Boomerang? If not, I could redo the end of the level and save a couple of seconds on that.
Posted: 7/21/2006 6:30 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
You are probably better off without the boomerang. Bob didn't need it.
Posted: 7/22/2006 1:17 PM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I managed to shave 24 frames off of my last result: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1414/swordless-wip007.fcm Omitting the Boomerang wouldn't save much, if any, additional time - the Goriyas appear in the way, and I would have to walk around them if I didn't blow them up. And if I'm going to blow them up, I might as well nab the Boomerang. There might be a couple of Keese rooms where this could be useful. Also, it might help if it is necessary to pile up multiple enemies to destroy them all at once with a Bomb, in case the spawns aren't cooperative. Next, I'm going to use Up+A, then go left and gamble four times, then go up and buy the Blue Candle, and then attempt to obtain the Ladder from Level 4. Hopefully, I can make it through without Wooden Arrows (which would be most quickly picked up on the way to Level 6). The biggest challenge is going to be clearing the Ladder room - three Like Likes and two Zols, if I remember correctly. Like Likes take three Bombs apiece, which is going to require some *very* careful manipulation to get them all in place at once.
Posted: 7/23/2006 12:56 AM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I've posted a new WIP; this one follows up Level 1 by going to Level 4 and obtaining the Ladder. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1416/swordless-wip008.fcm I'm not at all sure that this is the most optimal method to handle this task. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd like to hear them. The two most difficult rooms were the room with 5 Vires amidst a maze of rivers, and the room with the passage to the Ladder (which had 3 Like Likes and 2 Zols). When fighting the Vires, I had to not only kill them as quickly as possible, but also make them leave behind Bombs - otherwise I would have no way to finish off the Like Likes. The Like Likes were difficult because they take three Bombs apiece. I tried to optimize the placement as well as I could, but there was still some standing-around time. This would have been much easier with the Wooden Arrows, but that would also have required an extra side trip. By the way, the reason that I have extra Rupees from gambling is that I am going to purchase the Wooden Arrows and the Enemy Bait on the way to Level 6 (which comes next). After that, I'll have to use the money making game again to get 100 Rupees for one Bomb upgrade. I don't think it is possible to defeat all the necessary Wizzrobes in Death Mountain without a maximum capacity of at least 12 Bombs.
Posted: 7/23/2006 3:04 AM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
To save walking time, can you manipulate the gambler to give +50 rupees in the center spot always? Watch level 4 from Bob's WIP and use that as your baseline. His looks faster than yours in all the hard parts. You probably shouldn't pick up that first key.
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:00 AM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
Hitting the center Rupee icon in the money making game is 30 frames quicker than hitting the one on the left. The Rupee on the right is the slowest of all. I was able to manipulate luck so that 3 of the 4 gambles gave 50 Rupees at the center; however, one had to use the left icon, since waiting it out would have actually taken longer. (It was over 30 frames and the pattern I wanted hadn't shown up - so it was faster just to take it on the left). I'm working on re-doing Level 4 up to the Ladder. This time, I omitted the room with the slew of Keese; I can always go back and do that later if I need the Key. I figured out a pretty good pattern for the Vires that leaves me with 7 Bombs at the end of the room, and I'm going to try a bunch of different patterns in the room that hides the Ladder until I find one that works well. Since the Like Likes take three Bombs apiece, they're the biggest problem. If I can hit them all at once, it would make things go a lot quicker.
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:42 AM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
My run up to the Ladder is now optimized by over 20 seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1425/swordless-wip009.fcm I'm not sure if there are still time-shaving tricks for Level 4 that I'm missing. Any additional suggestions?
Posted: 7/24/2006 3:20 AM
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xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Just keep doing what you're doing, it looks great compared to your first run.
Posted: 7/24/2006 9:13 AM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
I agree, it looks very good compaired to your first run. I like the amount of effort you're putting into it. I do think the quality of Phils run is a lot higher. You should take a look at some of the strategies used in the run. Rooms where you only use bombs, like the darknut room in level 3 could theoretically be played equally fast as Phil did. Btw, why did you do a Up+A at the end of the run, after getting the ladder? Starting the level over and walking to the boss takes way longer than not doing an Up+A.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 7/24/2006 1:29 PM
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Josh
Joined: 7/15/2006
Posts: 23
I can't fight the Gleeok at the end of Level 4 yet because I don't have the Magic Wand. Without a sword, the only way to damage him is by smacking him with the Wand. Other weapons don't work.
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