Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
^Cool.
Also, I meant to say this in my last post, but forgot: If I happen to have the last post in this topic, I'm just gonna edit updates into that post. Just thought I'd let you know that the run isn't necessarily on hold just because the topic looks dead from the outside (although it's not very unlikely >_>).
Oh, and
SideofClouds wrote:
On-topic: on the fifth level (building) where you enter the room with the woman and start running towards her, there is one frame right when you're close to her where you can actually give a command (like jump, shoot...) ... might be good for entertainment even if it doesn't last long
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Thanks. :) It's gonna look even more awesome from here on out, due to the faster sliding with a power suit on.
I don't like that the rockets on my rocket suit are interfering with my jumps, though. I've completed area 3 of stage 3 now. I managed to trick the rockets into not igniting when jumping up to a platform by releasing the jump button for three frames before pushing it again. Saved one frame by doing this compared to the fastest way I found to do it with the rockets igniting. When falling down from the platform, I couldn't find a way to avoid it, though...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Redid the fight. Saved another 48 frames in the actual fight, for a total of 130 frames saved with the new "strategy".
Here's the WIP:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1208804811/Power%20Blade%202%20WIP%20BZero.fm2
The reason I go a little to the right before entering the mid-boss door, is to manipulate the dragon's pattern. If someone can find a faster way to manipulate the dragon to start the battle by bouncing across the room, then shoot two fireballs, that would be very much appreciated.
Edit: I'll check out your video later, too tired right now.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Thanks. That might come in handy. I was using 2.1.1 and I'm not sure the editor works in that version? Either way, I hadn't really tried it out before.
Edit: I finished the fight, but I found out that I actually have enough time to deal 32 damage to him after he has jumped across the room, so the fastest battle would actually be the one where he immediately jumps across the room at the beginning of the battle, then shoots two fireballs. This will save me the time it takes to get close to the boss in the "two fireballs-jump across the room-two fireballs" pattern. So I have now manipulated the boss to use the "jump across the room-two fireballs" pattern instead, and I've already saved 82 frames just from faster luck manipulation.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Update: I suddenly decided to pick this up again. I just spent ~8 hours working on this, and I've progressed ~3 seconds. This boss (see above post) is a little bit annoying.
I'm halfway through the battle now (at the point where he jumps across the room/is invincible). Turns out he can only take damage every 16 frames. So if I hit him faster than that, he's actually invincible for a few frames. This is probably the main reason why I just spent 8 hours on these 3 seconds. It took a long time before I figured this out.
I can see why it has to be like that, though. The boomerang weapon isn't like projectile weapons in most games; it doesn't disappear when it hits an enemy, it goes through the enemy and returns, like a boomerang is supposed to do. With big enemies (like this boss) the boomerang would stay within their hit box for a long time, so it makes sense that the enemies can't take damage every frame.
It was still possible to hurt the dragon two times with each boomerang, though. And it was just barely possible to throw four boomerangs at him before he became invincible [edit: it was possible to throw more than four boomerangs, but not with full damage (two hits) due to the 16-frame rule], and since I got the red boomerang before this fight, that means 16 damage (half his max) in 3 seconds.
Also, there are conveyor belts on the floor.
Anyway, the second half should be easier, since I now know what to do, and since I can start the second half closer to him (at the start of the battle, I had to make my way across the room before I could start doing damage). Then I can finally equip a power suit and get back to side-scrolling, this time without having to worry about killing enemies for drops. Hopefully it'll be a little easier to make some progress for a while now.
BTW, I will finish this, even if it means setting the record for longest production time ever for a TAS.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Did you actually try the 0 - 11 - 23 - 14 - 15 - 35 - 24 - 29 - 30 route? When I tried (and failed) to do a speedrun of this, I decided this was the fastest route. But I don't remember why, probably just because it was easier than your route, which obviously doesn't matter much in a TAS.
Anyway, voted yes. I've wanted to see a TAS for this since I discovered it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Scumtron wrote:
My thinking at the time was that doing 1, 3, 2.. would be faster because NEWT SUIT could somehow save time on the first screen of stage 3 (probably wrong! i doubt i even tested that)
I just tested this, and using the newt suit is only 100-200 frames faster. Definitely not worth the extra boss fight. Plus, you'll miss the big battery in that area if you use the newt suit.
Anyway, I'm in area 3 of stage 3. I have just killed the ninth enemy out of the ten necessary to get the red boomerang drop. It's been five months since I last worked on this though, so I don't even remember what enemy I planned to kill next (I remember planning which ten enemies to kill before the mid-level boss was pretty annoying).
Anyway, I think I'll try to pick this up again now. At this rate, maybe I'll just be able to submit this before the end of the decade.
EDIT 01/06: Killed the tenth enemy, got the red boomerang and made it to the mid-level boss. Yay, progress! Video time so far is one minute.
EDIT 01/08: I'm now at the exact same spot I was two days ago, but I've now spent over 1,000 rerecordings just trying to manipulate the dragon's (mid-level boss) pattern so that he would start the battle by shooting two fireballs, then bounce across the room (he's invincible when he does this), then shoot two more fireballs. This is the only way I can defeat him before he bounces across the room a second time. I probably spent most of those rerecordings trying to find the RAM address that would determine the dragon's pattern, but in the end I had to give that up, and just experiment with different things. This is what I ended up with, if anyone's interested: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1273780971/Power%20Blade%202%20WIP%20BZero.fm2
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Wow, nice glitch. Currently redoing what I've done so far (first two areas of stage 3) to implement that glitch at the beginning... Let me know if you find any more time savers like that, ok?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
So, I started over again today, more than a year after I last gave up on this TAS. Let's hope I can see it through to the end this time.
I started on level 3 this time, instead of level 2, which I'm confident is the right decision (explained in above post), and also, I've realized that doing level 1 before level 2 is just slightly faster, because the motorcycle on the level selection screen will automatically turn around to face to the right after you've completed a level, so if I do level 2 before level 1, I'd have to turn the MC around again to get to level 1 which costs a few frames. I can't think of any other reason to do one of these levels before the other, so at the moment my plan is 3-1-2-4(-5-6).
Anyway, just completed area 1 of stage 3. WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/913378342/Power%20Blade%202%20WIP%20BZero.fm2
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
The emulator doesn't work for me. When I start it, it tells me that it needs to be configured, so I do that. Then it tells me it will shut down, and that I need to restart it, but when I do it tells me I have to configure it again. I've tried many times, and I've followed the Wiki, but it keeps telling me it needs to be configured. Why?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
It does, you just need to install Python 2.4, then the Python menu will show up next to "Sound" in the emulator. C1F0 is your x-axis position on the screen, and C218 is the y-axis.
And yeah, I really hope everything is optimal now. >_>
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Aqfaq wrote:
Also, whenever you use the action menus, you should not release the direction pad for that frame, because the walking is still registered for the frame you activate the menus. To be sure and to make the recording easy, you might want to always hold the D-pad to the direction you are going to walk next, even during screen transitions. That way you never miss those so called "window of opportunity" frames. For example, believe it or not, you can turn the character around on the start location with the D-pad before any other button is pressed and the game has not even started.
Generally, it should always be assumed that a game character is able to move, even during inventory screens, death animations, continue screens, game over screens, ending credits, pause screens or the game title screens. For the purpose of TASing, you might as well assume that the character is able to move when the whole console is turned off and the world has ended. Never assume that the character is unable to do something at a given frame. :)
I tried testing this, but it doesn't seem to improve my time at all. In fact, when holding the directional buttons from start-up and during screen transitions, I was already 2 frames behind this video after only 400 frames.
Oh, it seems that sometimes you can start turning away from an item during the frame you pick it up:
Frame 1: <Frame> A
This doesn't seem to make a difference either. Yes, he'll turn around automatically after I'm done picking up an item if I don't press any directional buttons after picking up the item. But since I'm pressing the directional buttons after picking up the item, he'll turn around on the same frame anyway. He won't start moving any sooner.
Are you watching memory addresses C1F0 and C218 for his position?
As for the giant, I'll redo that.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Aqfaq wrote:
I found another bug: Climb to the large tree and exit the screen to the right. You then maintain the climb position indefinitely and you can go through some obstacles. Haha!
XD Most entertaining glitch so far, that's for sure. Just too bad I couldn't find a use for it. Also, the effect seems to reset on certain screens.
BTW, I've picked up the dagger, pebbles and mushroom so far in the new run, and comparing it to my test run, I'm on schedule for a sub-3 minute time.
N. Harmonik: I don't think so. Yes, this is a port of the PC game, but they're not really all that comparable, I think... I don't know.
EDIT: You can cross the eastern troll-guarded bridge with the climbing glitch, but that can't possibly be faster than the current method.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Thanks. I just noticed a mistake in that comparison up there, though. I put 2 screens for getting the dagger, but walking behind the castle like in the old run is actually faster even though I have to enter 2 more screens that way. It just looks like 2 screens on my "map". Just starting the new run now. Saved 18 frames by not picking up the carrot... Hooray!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
DeHackEd's site is down (at least for me), so here: http://www.microupload.com/409976
353 frames faster, and I really doubt you lost almost 6 seconds more than me due to "sloppiness", so I think we can conclude that this route is faster.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
I have found a new route that is roughly 300-400 frames faster than yours. Hard to tell exactly how much faster of course, since both your run and the test run I'm doing right now are very sloppy, but it's definitely faster. Here's a comparison of our (simplified) routes. Your route is on the left, with the number of screens you must pass through to get to each item and then the total number of screens you've passed through. Then my route's on the right.
01 | Get bowl | 6 | 6 | Get dagger | 2 | 2 |
02 | Get pebbles | 1 | 7 | Get pebbles | 3 | 5 |
03 | Get mushroom | 1 | 8 | Get mushroom | 1 | 6 |
04 | Get key | 2 | 10 | Get key | 2 | 8 |
05 | Get chest | 5 | 15 | Get bowl | 3 | 11 |
06 | Get dagger | 2 | 17 | Get chest | 2 | 13 |
07 | Get mirror | 3 | 20 | Get mirror | 3 | 16 |
08 | Get fiddle | 4 | 24 | Get fiddle | 4 | 20 |
09 | Get shield | 2 | 26 | Get shield | 2 | 22 |
10 | End game | 4 | 30 | End game | 4 | 26 |
(I only counted the overworld screens, as everything else will be the same anyway)
I know fewer screens visited doesn't necessarily mean a faster time, but it's an easy way to compare different routes.
Here's a very simple map I made of the overworld:
L-L-O-L-L-D-B-A
O-O-L-F-O-O-M-O
K-O-O-L-S-O-P-O
O-O-O-O-O-O-B-O
O-L-w-O-L-C-O O
O-O-O-W-O-O-O-O
O - Nothing of interest
L - Lake
A - Start
B - End (castle entrance)
D - Dagger
F - Fiddle
M - Mushroom
K - Key (gnome)
S - Shield (the tiny cave)
P - Pebbles
B - Bowl
C - Chest (door)
W - Well entrance (mirror)
w - Well exit
See if you can spot a faster route there. I can't.
Did you know that you can escape the castle moat by jumping at a certain moment? There are many other places where jumping can be used for some minor strangeness, but I haven't found anything useful
Nope, didn't know that. I'll experiment with it a little when I start the proper run.
(except the walk-on-water trick, which is not used on the new route).
Going north and crossing the lake when getting the fiddle is faster than going south like you did in your route, so it might prove useful, actually. :)
I'll post my route test video when I'm done (very soon).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Great work, Aqfaq, I didn't think this video would be improvable by that much.
I can't believe I didn't find that way to get to the mushroom in my run. It was so obvious. I even tried abusing the walk-behind-trees-to-cross-rivers trick on the screen south of the castle door, but I didn't try the obvious thing and see if it was possible to just go up where you did. That shortcut really saves a lot of time, as the cheese and the eagle flight are no longer needed.
As for the new route, I'll have to watch your video a few more times and such before commenting on it, but yes, I'm definitely interested in improving my run. :)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(16)
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 44
Location: Norway
Well, I started a TAS for this, but I officially give up. Just figured I'd share some information in hopes that someone else will complete this run some day:
-Get both the Wet Suit and the Rocket Suit from the mid-level bosses in stage 2 and 3.
-Selecting a different stage in this game takes several seconds (as seen from 0:30 to 0:38 in this video). Still, you should do them in this order: 3 - (1/2) - 4 - 5 - 6. The Rocket Suit you get in stage 3 will save you quite a bit of time in stage 2, especially in area 6 (as seen from 3:00 to 3:10 in that video) where you'd have to wait one more time for the fire to rise and fall without the suit. That alone more than makes up for the time it takes to select stage 3 before 2. It doesn't matter what order you do stage 1 and 2 in, as there's no water in stage 1, but I am about 99% sure that doing stage 1 after stage 3 will save you time, mostly because your attacks are more powerful with a power suit on, which means the boss fight will be faster, but also because there are a couple of areas were flying is faster. You might want to test this more thoroughly than me, though, to be 100% sure.
-Slide whenever possible. Sliding is faster than flying with the Rocket Suit, and it's faster than swimming with the Wet Suit. Sliding is faster with a power suit on, so the only times you should unequip the power suits are in auto-scrolling areas.
-The item drops from enemies are solely based on how many enemies you've killed before. The first enemy you kill in the game will always drop a small battery, and the tenth enemy you kill will always drop a red boomerang, for example. Note that if you leave a screen too early after you've killed an enemy, that enemy won't "count". The "exploding" animation has to end before you leave the screen.
-You probably need to pick up all the big batteries you can get to (there's one that's impossible to get without the Newt Suit), but you'll have to test this yourself, I'm afraid.
-Get a red boomerang by killing ten enemies before the mid-level boss in level 3. You'll obviously use a power suit for all the other bosses.
And that's all I've got. Hopefully this will be somewhat helpful for whoever might try to TAS this game sometime in the future.
BTW, here's my stage 2 WIP:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1999227460/Power%20Blade%202%20WIP%20BZero.fcm
Yes, I started on stage 2 before finding out that I would save time by getting the Rocket Suit as well and that I would save even more time by getting it before doing stage 2. This WIP ends after area 6. You'll see that I make sure to get a red boomerang before the mid-level boss. I actually have to wait 1 extra frame before leaving the screen at the end of area 1 to make that last enemy I killed there count. You'll also see "slide whenever possible" in action right after the mid-level boss.
