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At this point, no strategy should be ruled out, since this game is as hard, if not harder to plan, than FF1, due to manip limitations. I don't think there's really a way to make this look like a "walk-in-the-park" run as DW4 looked, since:
1- There are like 9 bosses in the game, one of which is completely optional (and useless) (Kandar 1), 2 of which gives no experience (Baramos and Zoma), and 3 of which are in the last dungeon(King Hydra, Baramos Bomus, Baramos Gonus). That limits us to 3 bosses, which have nasty HP regen features, crownies to help out (Kandar 2), nasty breath attacks (Orochi), and high chances to land criticals (Boss Troll). So moderate-to-massive leveling is required.
2- Turns are somewhat pre-scripted. Therefore, there is little we can do to manipulate damage all-in-all. So protective equipment will have to be taken into consideration.
Oh, and since everyone's gonna take hits, you may want to manipulate some drops here and there. Something good to manip would be with Hunter Flies near Baharata giving away Cloaks of Evasion (which is better than nothing at this point of the game). It might be a bit time-consuming, but since we cannot manipulate much in battles, we might as well go for damage-saving solutions.
Good other drops to watch for would be:
Boss Troll -> Thor's Sword (which is WAY better than the Thunder Sword)
King Merzon -> Magic Bikini (so make sure your other members are females)
Lethal Armor -> Full Plate Armor (if you don't have anything better already before getting to Samanao)
Minidemon -> Unlucky Helmet (Best Helmet in the game, if you don't care about the Luck attribute)
Another thing to consider would be this:
After getting Healall at least, turn your Pilgrim and Wizards into Soldiers. Why? Better HP, better overall power, and better equipment possibilities (including Demon Axes from Mimics, and Dragon Mails, which will protect them from breath attacks). Plus, if one of them has Healall, he'll still be able to greatly damage Zoma (since "Weakened-Zoma" gets damaged by Healall by about the same as Blazemost).
Also, best way to gain money would be near the end of the game, by hunting Thor Swords. One or two will most likely do the trick, though. The casino is out of the question, since fight results are just as scripted as pro-wrestling, and low levels = not much profit.
That's about all I can come up as far as a strategy is concerned. We'd need to dig the game mechanics more to see if there's anything exploitable we could abuse.
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Mart wrote:
Oh, and since everyone's gonna take hits, you may want to manipulate some drops here and there.
agreed, there are some premium weapon & armor drops along the way.
Boss Troll -> Thor's Sword (which is WAY better than the Thunder Sword)
I forgot about this one. you only get once chance until the underworld but it certainly very kick ass and worth the effort. Mainly bacause it can be used as firevolt, making the 6th orb journey a piece of cake.
King Merzon -> Magic Bikini (so make sure your other members are females)
+the fact that it changes the sprite to a girl in a bikini. Oh yeah! gotta loves those 8-bit ladies!
Minidemon -> Unlucky Helmet (Best Helmet in the game, if you don't care about the Luck attribute)
the problem with this is 2-fold:
1) I think all curse items keep the afflicted character from doing things like opening doors & casting spells outside of battle ("there body is inflicted with the curse" or something like that) Though I could be wrong and the unlucky helmet could be an exception to this.
2) Luck is actually very needed in this TAS. It is what determines if you will be affected by sleep, surround, chaos, etc. I don't think it is worth the extra defense points.
Another thing to consider would be this:
After getting Healall at least, turn your Pilgrim and Wizards into Soldiers. Why? Better HP, better overall power, and better equipment possibilities (including Demon Axes from Mimics, and Dragon Mails, which will protect them from breath attacks). Plus, if one of them has Healall, he'll still be able to greatly damage Zoma (since "Weakened-Zoma" gets damaged by Healall by about the same as Blazemost).
I don't think class changes will be useful because it takes a LOT of time to level the character back up. Also, IF you level up to get healall it will be extremely useful for Zoma (100-110 damage to be exact). But pilgrams don't learn that spell until like level 26, that is an awful lot of leveling, which will make this run very long. (I think level 26 is around 100k experience, that is 10 metal babble fights!)
Also, best way to gain money would be near the end of the game, by hunting Thor Swords. One or two will most likely do the trick, though.
yeah but by the time you get to this point in the game, money shouldn't be needed. but yes you sell them for 48k a piece!
The casino is out of the question, since fight results are just as scripted as pro-wrestling, and low levels = not much profit.
Every once in a while is has a kick-ass 17to1 shot or 20to1 shot that wins. That makes it worth it even at low levels. I was thinking this is how I would equip for the gold-claw trip.
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Ah, this is sounding more and more hopeful. But why bother with the golden claw? It's a good weapon but the encounter rate increase would kill that and there are better ways to get gold too if drops can be manipulated.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
Ah, this is sounding more and more hopeful. But why bother with the golden claw? It's a good weapon but the encounter rate increase would kill that and there are better ways to get gold too if drops can be manipulated.
for money, the 11k will be needed to equip my characters
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I did some debuggin around in this game and found some interesting results:
the ram addresses for enemy HP are:
1st enemy: 0500
2nd enemy: 0502
3rd enemy: 0504
4th enemy: 0506
if HP is greater than 255 then the carry over is in the very next address, so a boss hp would be a combo of 0500 and 0501 (reverse the two to get the right value)
It seems that HP regeneration is random in this game just like DW4. Also boss HP is also random. This should mean that if you can get a low HP that the boss might be beatable at lower levels
Kandar I has no hp regeneration
Kandar II has much less than 400 hp, all my tries revolved around 350 +-20 hp
is regeneration was around 45 (I never got igher than 47 or lower than 43)
I will look at orochi, boss troll, and baramos when I get a chance.
After fooling a bit with this game, I'm not so sure it would be a very entertaining movie unless you could avoid/manipulate battles.
You can't avoid battles in caves, meaning you must fight multiple/many times.
I was fooling around with Dragon Quest (Japanese version, obviously) and found that battles can be avoided in caves just by calling the menu. Waiting doesn't seem to wark at all.
*doublechecks*
Indeed, it only warks (ahem... works) in DQ, not DW.
It certainly seems that way.
I also found that whether or not I can escape from battle in Dragon Quest changes depending on which buttons are held down... is that also the case in DW?
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Pasky13 wrote:
Going to revive this topic in hope that there is still interest in making a run as this is one of my favorite NES games.
good thing you revived it. It had been sitting unused for like 7hrs ;O
As far as running goes, it is like evertying elese in the battles. You can manipulate it by waiting (and I assume different button won't as well)
I was wrong in what I said earlier. I DID fight a few battles before getting to Kandar II. These where just outside of Aliahan to raise my two pilgrims levels to 3. Then I had enough MP to cast heal enough times to avoid all encounters in caves. Still needed to buy a few medical herbs however, for the non-magic floor of the pyramid (random manip only works if heal is actually cast). Oh and I had to stay at the inn a few times. This is all test work at the moment.
To kill Kandar II, more than 1 metal slime will need to be killed. Outside Dharma (to my knowledge), metal slimes don't appear in groups, and they only appear with another monster (I think). In my tests, I went to the top of the Tower of Garuna and used manipulation until I got a pack of metals. I was unable to keep all my chars alive due to blaze spells (I think just the Hero died), but I did manage to kill 2-3 in a pack which raised levels quite a bit. If it could be done decently well, keeping all the characters alive, I think this would be faster than multiple encounters of single metals outside Dharma (since they would be a pain to manipulate anyway).
I hadn't thought of getting the golden claw to sell for cash, but don't forget a few tough things...
1) you can't cast spells in the basement of the pyramid. To manipulate random encounters you would need lots of medical herbs, or to use the wizard's ring/seeds. This takes more preparation and time to do.
2) If you equip the claw on a fighter after getting it, the encounter rate goes way up. It seems that having the claw in your possession raises it some, and then equipping it raises it even more. This was my experience while messing around.
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couple of comments:
1) your encounter rate goes way up just by having the golden claw whether you equip it or not. Therefore having a fighter will give you an added advantage
2) you don't need to avoid all encounters, just ones that you can run from on the first try. that will save you mp and perhaps you don't need to level all the way to 3. It would be best to save the leveling for the slimes fight.
3) since class changes will be too slow, there is no reason to go to the tower. Therefore you are going way out of the way to get there (not to mention mp by trying to avoid encoutners along the way
4) lone slimes do appear around dhama, just not terribly often
It is probably best to get into a lone slime fight around dhama, which should level you enough to take on an enemy+slime combo for the remaining level ups
5) good work ledauphinbenoit! the next step is to figure out what kind of levels your party will need to be at (& equpment) in order to defeat kandar II. BTW, are you planning to make the TAS of this game?
2) you don't need to avoid all encounters, just ones that you can run from on the first try. that will save you mp and perhaps you don't need to level all the way to 3. It would be best to save the leveling for the slimes fight.
I'm not sure about this. I agree with the logic, but since pilgrims start with less than 9 mp, they can only cast heal twice. You'd need medical herbs to make up the difference. Even running from battles you are able to, I think you would need at least 6-7 "heals" to avoid fighting in the 3 early dungeons (najima, enticement, pyramid). I'm sure there is a good balance that can be found (maybe level 2 from a battle that is preemptive and then herbs).
adelikat wrote:
there is no reason to go to the tower.
Assuming that all later leveling will be done with metal babbles. You can hit them at the island near Greenlad right? Not sure if I have ever hit one there. More to test!
adelikat wrote:
are you planning to make the TAS of this game?
Maybe. I certainly am not claiming it though. There is so much more to plan/discover. I definitely want to help out in the movie getting made either way.
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I was thinking to today about where the earliest place to find metal babbles is. Finding them as earliest as possible is critical here. If there is a place near greenlad then that means we could level up as soon as we get the ship. Hell that is really close to portoga where we will be anyway.
Also, Im pretty sure you can get the magic key in only one encounter (use wings of wryvern as soon as you get it). The 2nd dungeon might be problematic though. You can level on metals long before the pyramid though. Remember that east of kanave there is a small section of squares that you can encounter avengers & grizzlies & metal slimes.
So I propose:
get/regiester party, make sure to register a merchant for later
get to romaly without leveling
go to kanave & noniels (go to noniels for using the return spell later since it is the closest town to the shrine you delivier the orbs)
go east of kanave fight a few slimes, level up
got to isis get meterite armband
go to the pyramid, get magic key
get golden claw
return to isis & sell claw & euip weaponry
get to dhama (portoga etc)
level more if necessary
defeat kandar II
get ship
that should cover "phase 1" of the game - gettig the ship
next will come a LOT of planning on how to get the 6 orbs as fast as possible
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How easy is it to manipulate which enemy group is encountered? It may not be possible to make a particular enemy group appear, which would make things much more difficult.
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haven't forgot about the wizards ring, I just don't think it will be worth it:
1) it is way out of the way, not just because you have to make it up to the queen's bedroom, but you also have to do it at night (which may mean walking around aimlessly and manipulating to avoid encounters)
2) the wizards ring as a certain % chance of breaking everytime you use it. Not only would you have to hope it changes the random encounters positively, you also have to make sure it doesn't break. This makes it more unlikely that it will be helpful.
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Don't you also need to come in at night to get the metorite armband, which is also way out of the way? In fact, you need to solve the sliding rock puzzle to get that and you can just walk in and grab the wizard ring.
Also, even if it can break, I bet you can work it out so that between healing, running and wizard ring you will always have some option to avoid fighting. Without it you will probably not have enough MP to cast heal as much as you'd like and buying medical herbs is very slow.
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no you don't have to go in at night for the meteorite armband, and it is closer than the wziards ring. also the rock puzzle thing is for the vase of drought
Axe you have a point, the ring gives you 3 options for avoiding fights and with the unforgiving rng, the key will be to have as many options as possible
Well, im not sure what level your attempting to get to, but you could possibly skip the Final Key (vase of drought) if you had a wizard that knew open. there are some area's where you can spawn a screen full of metal slimes (8 or 10 at a time), not sure if you could manipulate critical hits or not to kill them, but it may be possible to get your wizard to learn open, and the Day/Night spell.
All of the following is simply investigation and may prove to be incorrect in one way or another.
Outerworld Battles
------------------------
In the outerworld, the game accepts input at 16 frame intervals. It also takes 16 frames to move from one square to another (a battle would start on frame 17).
Battles are set at specific frames, which change dependent upon time OR movement depending on the circumstances (see below). I think the battle frames are in small sets, but since you can only do things in intervals of 16 frames it's tough to say exactly.
If a battle is set for your next step, you can wait it out. Waiting the interval time (16 frames) x number of times will eventually lead to a non-battle next step. (I typically have encountered between 16 - 64 frame waits). So, in this way battles are dependent soley on time. If you don't wait, all directions traveled = battle. If you wait, all = clear. Pressing buttons during the 15 frame movement does not have any effects. (I think this is how it worked in other DWs?)
If there is no battle at your next step, waiting will not create one. In this way, battles are dependent on movement only! You must hypothetically "move" one step closer to having a battle.
What causes the battle is hard to nail down without direct hacking. It could be either the frame you press move, or the frame at which you stop moving. I believe it's the latter. I think that's how other DW games work.
How long you can continuously walk is dependent on when the rng battle frames are chosen. Sometimes it's really long (we hope so for a TAS!), sometimes it's not. What direction you travel in does not seem to matter. Once you know what frame a battle starts on, you can avoid it by waiting on the square before it. This is probably fastest, unless it is a higher number of waiting frames than to open the menu, or cast heal. When successful, the battle will have been moved to another random frame location in the future.
Battle enemies are decided by each rng and change with each reset of the rng. I believe that to get a different set of enemies, the only choice is to wait and keep trying (or cross enemy zones). I want to test this more.
brief summary
good news: battles on the overworld can be calculated and avoided!
bad news: getting a battle you want is pretty random.
To get a metal slime, the numbers would be:
m = battles that are not a metal slime
rand() = random number of frames to the start of a battle
int_rand() = random multiple of frame interval to avoid a battle (always an integer)
[m * rand() + 16 * int_rand()] + rand()
So you'd hope to encounter an enemy fast (low rand), have it be the right one (low m), and not suck to wait and avoid if it's wrong (low int_rand).
Testing update:
You can encounter metal babbles on the outerworld map just south of Greenlad (on the island with the shrine). So, after getting the ship, you can do some big time leveling.
Using death as a shortcut will help significantly in the first part of the game. The modified route I propose is:
Aliahan (don't get a party yet)
Najima Tower for thief's key
Reeve for magic ball
Cave of Enticement
Romaly
Kanave for poison needle
Noaniels (stop in for return point)?
Assaram (stop in for return point)
Isis for meteorite armband
Pyramid for magic key
Die
Return to Isis
Pyramid for golden claw
Die
Create party in Aliahan
Return to Romaly and buy equipment
...
Once you have a party dying isn't a good idea since reviving costs time and money and you need those party members. In testing, walking to Kanave is almost perfectly in sync with it becoming night, which is great because you need night to get the poison needle.
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seconded, except returning to isis to buy equipment since it has the full plate armor & other goodies, possible even to assaram for a staff of force, but the 5000gp will be awfully steep
An update on a few things:
I think we can pretty much rule out a TAS of this game until we find out more about the game internals, specifically the RNG for random encounters. I did a short test a month or so ago, which I have now uploaded. It's 10 minutes long. Consider it an example of how hard a full TAS would be. (Note the route has changed a bit since, see above posts)
I've done some low-level investigation into the assembly, but I am nowhere near good enough to find a RNG. I have browsed some material on the web for finding things in the ram and assembly, but nothing this complex. Since it seems to base encounters on number of steps, we need to know when the amount of steps before a battle gets set and manipulate it. Then we can proceed only when that number is very high (maybe using a bot if necessary). The same goes for being able to know that a battle will yield critical hits or appropriate behavior from enemies.
So...things to figure out:
random number of steps to a battle (both outside and in caves)
random numbers for battle effects (criticals, dodges, spells working, item drops, etc.)
random number for enemy formations (for getting metal slimes, etc.)
