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I've posted this topic due to the the game being brought up on the other dragon warrior topics.
DW3's random generator is very different from the other 3. You can't manipulate luck in battles. If you reload at the beginning of a battle and take the same actions, the same results happen regardless of your timing.
So far, I haven't found any method of manipulating criticals the way they are in the DW4 or DW1 runs. This would mean relying on a lot of leveling up and getting lucky.
Also, in caves it is not possible to avoid enemy encounters by delaying or pressing random buttons.
On the overworld it is very possible to avoid enemies but with noticable delays. The random number generator is re-seeded very slowly (seems it is once a second rather than once per frame).
If luck could be manipulated like in the other DW games then this would be an 1hr - 1 1/2 hr vid, but due to these problems I can't imagine this being under 3 1/2 hrs.
Of course if anyone wants to look into this, by all means do so. Maybe there are some unconventional ways of getting some good results.
As for the party selection, there is no question: Hero and 3 fighters. This is the most fierce party possible. the fighters will get many more criticals and will almost always attack first. Get the meteorite armband for the Hero and all 4 characters will be strong attackers who always act 1st. No need for heal spells because the enemies wont last long enough to do any damage!
Hm, what about the SNES or GBC remakes? Granted those would be less familiar to most of us, but it might work better.
But let's have the more experienced coding gurus take a look at the game. After all, Final Fantasy managed to get done, and that game also wasn't very TAS-friendly, once upon a time.
And even if everything can't be manipulated, doesn't mean a TAS can't be done. It'll just be long, but still we can shoot for as fast as possible.
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I don't know about taking Fighters over Soldiers. If treasure drops can be manipulated to get weapons or gold to buy weapons, then soldiers get better really fast. And don't forget the Poison Needle, which could make a wizard even better. As a bonus, the wizard gets return and outside faster than the hero.
The surround spell could be used or simlulated with poison moth powder, that could tip things favorable enough. Other spells could be abused too: upper, sap, damage magic. If criticals can't be manipulated then fighting characters are useless unless they get some levels and weapons.
I hope this run is doable, but it may not be possible to manipulate things enough. If something can be figured out, there are many games that seem to have similar problems, my favorites being the Gameboy Final Fantasy Legend series. So a lot of possibilities could open up.
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I wonder if the poison needle works against bosses in this game.
Maybe even baramos or zoma! Probably not, but you never know.
Soldiers way worse fighters since they are incredibly slow. Even with the best weapons their attacks aren't that much better.
There are two places to get premuim weapons though.
1)Boss Troll in Samonao leaves the thor's sword
2) Mimic leave the demon axe
Without good luck manipulation in fights though, its going to take a lot of patience and amazing planning. Particularaly the very unfair HP regeneration of Kandar II, orochi, baramos, and zoma.
kandar = 50 hp per turn
orochi = 75
barmos + zoma = 100
Plus the boss trolls and several random enemies have it as well.
Aside from the random generation problems, there is one thing that I wonder about. To get the yellow orb, don't you have to save your game and reset? Like for the merchant's town to grow. I know you can step back and forth into it a couple times, but there comes a point where I think you need to reset. Is there a way around this? Death? Staying at an inn? Are any of these emulators able to record a reset anyways?
That's cool. I just happened to stumble on another thread here where adelikat said you didn't have to reset anyways, but just get certain items, etc. Pretty cool, I never knew that. Disregard my above post, I guess.
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Yes to get the town to grow fully, all you have to collect the red, greed, blue, and purple orbs.
Perhaps a power cycle or reset could help in manipulating enemy encounters in the game as well?
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adelikat wrote:
Perhaps a power cycle or reset could help in manipulating enemy encounters in the game as well?
This works in Final Fantasy because I can use a tent in the middle of the field and get back exactly where I was. The entire process takes about three seconds. In Dragon Warrior you normally need a house of healing, which takes a long time even if you had to go to town anyway. If you acquire a Dragon Potion, you can save anywhere. However, when you reload you'll start from the last house of healing you saved at, regardless of where you use the Dragon Potion. This might be useful, but it's not really that convenient.
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I think it's DW2 that has the Dragon Potion. I guess they decided it was pointless and took it out of the series after that.
yay, it's time to do a little dance for my 400th post...
Yes to get the town to grow fully, all you have to collect the red, greed, blue, and purple orbs.
Actually, I think it is dependent on killing the Orochi (purple orb) and killing the king of Samanao for the staff of change. So, picking up the yellow orb would be done before getting the sailor's thighbone near greenland.
Of course, it would be totally awesome if you could manipulate things so that you knew where the phantom ship was, and could board it from the shoreline somewhere. You'd need to know the details of the rom regarding the ship and its movement. But that doesn't alleviate the need to kill the Boss Troll to get the yellow orb. That's too bad, because if you could get the yellow orb another way, you could "skip" Samanao, the cave with the mirror of ra, and greenland all together.
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ledauphinbenoit wrote:
adelikat wrote:
Yes to get the town to grow fully, all you have to collect the red, greed, blue, and purple orbs.
Actually, I think it is dependent on killing the Orochi (purple orb) and killing the king of Samanao for the staff of change. So, picking up the yellow orb would be done before getting the sailor's thighbone near greenland.
Of course, it would be totally awesome if you could manipulate things so that you knew where the phantom ship was, and could board it from the shoreline somewhere. You'd need to know the details of the rom regarding the ship and its movement. But that doesn't alleviate the need to kill the Boss Troll to get the yellow orb. That's too bad, because if you could get to the ship that way, you could "skip" Samanao, the cave with the mirror of ra, and greenland all together.
the ship always appears around romaly, but it will not appear in the game until you obtain the sailors thighbone, you don't have to use it though
The easiest way I think was to warp to Portoa and sail east...or maybe it is closer to Romaly. I think it's somewhere around the middle between those 2 places.
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no, it always appears under romaly, (though if you give it time it will sail closer to portoga) the fastest method it to obtain the thighbone & immediately return to romaly and sail south.
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Posted on Gamefaqs board:
From: snakenamedjoe | Posted: 2/26/2006 4:00:33 PM | Message Detail
I had always avoided casting robmagic on enemies who had cast bounce. I figured it would do nothing because you would steal MP from yourself so you would gain the same amount as you lose. In the necrogond tunnel I accidentally cast robmagic on a king tortragond who had cast bounce. My sage had 43 MP at the time. It restored her all the way to full - 107 MP - with one spell! I tried it the next round with my mage and it took her from 112 to 163 (not quite full). It doesn't work if you cast it on your own party member with bounce on, but that is a great way to restore MP!
wow, didn't know about this trick. This trick could possibly have useful applications in a TAS.
Who worked with the dragon warrior code so he could see which frames to use hurt on? I was wondering if he could do something similar for TMNT.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
After fooling a bit with this game, I'm not so sure it would be a very entertaining movie unless you could avoid/manipulate battles.
You can't avoid battles in caves, meaning you must fight multiple/many times.
The battles are very pre-set before they start. Turn-order, damage amounts, criticals, etc. Although character choices do effect one another (ex: if two chars both attack the same enemy there may be a difference for char 2's damage, or char 2 might get a critical) So these battles will have to be fought pretty much the same as during a non-TAS.
If you stop and think about this, it really dead ends. If whether you hit or miss attacks is determined before the battle, you almost have to be at the required levels to fight and kill bosses. Otherwise, they would smash a low level party to bits.
However, since you don't have to fight a boss until Orochi, you could get to a leveling area (around Dharma) pretty quickly. But you would have to level A LOT to fight bosses like Baramos. I'm doubtful an all fighter party could win. If you can't guarantee crits, you would have to heal. Otherwise Explodet would cream them. (remember this is after fighting through the castle battles e.g. Stone Hulks w/o being able to heal)
In the end, a TAS would not look like the other DWs. It would be much more like something on speeddemosarchive. That is, unless there is a way to manipulate the randomness to do what you want it to.
I still say 'where there's a will there's a way'. Afterall, not too long ago we thought a TAS of Final Fantasy would look just as bad, but a way was figured out around it.
DW3 is probably one of the most popular games in the whole series, even if it's a bit longer than normal and has more battles than normal I still think people will want to see it. I know I would.
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ledauphinbenoit wrote:
After fooling a bit with this game
I'm glad to hear that, please continue to do so :)
You can't avoid battles in caves, meaning you must fight multiple/many times.
I have stumbled upon this as well. You can manipulate things buy waiting on the overworld before going into the cave. That manipulates the random encounter order. Though the odds of finding a scenario what avoids all battles is very unlikely especially in longer caves like the 6th orb cave. Also, while in a cave if you cast a heal spell which will change the rng and give you a different battle order, though not everytime :(
The battles are very pre-set before they start. Turn-order, damage amounts, criticals, etc. Although character choices do effect one another (ex: if two chars both attack the same enemy there may be a difference for char 2's damage, or char 2 might get a critical)
it is SLIGHTLY more manipulatable than that. Parry changes the outcome as well as the Parry/fight "glitch". Not just the amount of damage but also it can affect battle order. If your hero attacks monster 1 he might go first in battle, but if he attacks monster 2 he might go 2nd, or if he casts heal he might go last. While this isn't much help, it is enough to ensure a proberly leveled, or slightly low-leveled party can survive battles.
However, since you don't have to fight a boss until Orochi, you could get to a leveling area (around Dharma) pretty quickly.
you are forgetting about the 2nd kandar fight (the 1st one is not required). Though you can get to Dharma before fighting Kandar so your point is still made.
The main problem with bosses is their HP regenerations (a very nasty feature of DW games that began here). This is a nightmare for low-level party's.
[/quote]
I'm doubtful an all fighter party could win. If you can't guarantee crits, you would have to heal. Otherwise Explodet would cream them. (remember this is after fighting through the castle battles e.g. Stone Hulks w/o being able to heal) [/quote]
If this game was manipulatable like the other DW games then this party would be a no-brainer. Under these circumstances you are very right. A wizard will be a must since he will be able to do the most damage at the low-est levels which is very necessary to combat HP regeneration. At this time I am not sure what the other 2 characters would be.
In the end, a TAS would not look like the other DWs. It would be much more like something on speeddemosarchive.
This is what I am afraid of :(
That is, unless there is a way to manipulate the randomness to do what you want it to.
or to manipulate is more than we think we can at the moment. I encourage you & others to look into this some more. At this point any little thing can make a big difference in this run.
For instance, I had completely dismissed the possibility of doing this run until I discovered that I can avoid overworld battles. That cuts a potential run of this game down about 1hr. You never know, perhaps there is more that can be done to manipulate battles.
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Not found much, but maybe someone more experimented with game behaviours can look after what I found out about the "encounter mechanics" of this game:
1- I don't remember this being mentionned in DW3's case, but on the field, you can reset the encounters by simply bringing out a menu (as seen in TheAxeMan's DW2 run). Doesn't work in caves and dungeons, though... however...
2- ...it seems like any sort of healing DOES reset encounters in any case, even in dungeons (as Adelikat mentionned). Tried it with healing spells, medical herbs, AND the Wizard's Ring, and it works. So now that we can do this with a reusable item which isn't THAT far in the game (Isis, Magic Key required), this game seems much more feasible. The only hard parts will be the cave to Romaly and the Pyramid, for which I suggest stocking up on Medical Herbs to reset the encountering order. Plus, when healing STILL gives you a battle, just heal again to reset the encounters again, you've just been unlucky. :)
However, I wonder how equipping regenerative items (Ring of Life, Armor of Radiance, WFC, etc.) would affect manipulation...
If anyone thinks up of more creative ways to use this information, please bring them up for the benefit of everyone. Would be nice to see the whole series TAS'd.
Mart, I'm glad you're also looking into this game. I discovered much of the same as what you posted. The wizard's ring does affect the randomness, and you could get one in Isis at night, but I don't think it would be more useful than a simple "heal" spell.
I have gotten to Kandar 2 without fighting a complete battle. I have tested using a party with a pair of pilgrims and a fighter. I think a party with several pilgrims will be immensely useful since they have battle-randomness affecting spells like surround, sap, etc. However, leveling is still a big problem. Since battles can only be psuedo-manipulated it is really difficult to do quick leveling without getting killed.
I haven't tried anything with ring of life, armor of radiance, etc. But it seems that stat effecting items/spells change the randomness. You can use seeds the same as medical herbs. Meteorite armband is an exception to this.
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I'm glad to see people looking into this :)
ledauphinbenoit: how did you get to kandar without getting hit? that must have been some good manipulation in the dungeons :O
Leveling Up:
getting to kandar 2 makes it possible to level up. Remember that the barahata area connect to dhama in the north, so just walk up there and manipulate a metal slime encounter. It will be difficult since you cannot manipulate critical hits. But if you try enough combinations you might find a battle where a party member lands one.
Party selection:
I think a wizard will be invaluable here (unlike a normal playthrough).
They are able to do the most damage at the earliest levels and will be very useful since they learn return & outside. The hero learns those spells but has poor max MP so he will never be able to cast very many of them.
A pilgram will also be valuable here is since you will need many heal spells to manipulate encounters in dungeons. Also the sap & surround spells will be much needed.
Soldiers will not be too useful here because they are too slow and too expensive to equip.
Fighters are great because they will attack first in battle, are cheap to equip, have an added chance of criticals, and will make it much easier to get the golden claw since they can equip it on they way out of the pyramid.
Sages won't be useful because it takes too long to level a character up toi 20 and then start over.
Goof-offs are only useful to become sages so they are out
Merchants are useless.
So my party ideas are:
Hero, Fighter, Pilgram, Wizard
Hero, Pilgram, Wizard, Wizard
Hero, Pilgram, Pilgram, Wizard
The only problem with the all magic-user party combos will be orochi since that boss is very resistant to magic.
