i have a giant picture of all the levels of Prince of Persia (SNES) put together into one big map. For fun, I took a reduced size screen-shot of part of it, to illustrate how crazy Warp-16 is. (Follow the Yellow Line!)
wow. My math was off by quite a bit. So I just made a new demo of this Game Genie "No Gates" route, and got an 8:06.14936. (29,217 console frames.) I guess it really is best to record that demo before making projections! lol. There were a lot of time saves I forgot about. So here's the basic run-down, comparing my GT1 video (8:26) with the new "No Gates" video (8:06).
setup + warp-4 = 36.951 seconds saved (simplified setup)
level 4 = 12.457 seconds saved (better route)
level 5 = 7.853 seconds saved (better route)
level 16 = 44.134 seconds lost (full level, instead of checkpoint)
level 17 = 3.818 seconds saved (no warp lag)
level 18 = 0.750 seconds saved (no GT1 lag)
level 19 = 1.911 seconds saved (better route)
level 20 should be the same.
this is about 63.79 seconds saved, against 44.13 seconds lost, for a net savings of 19.6 seconds over the GT1 route.
I found about 100 frames of minor errors in my new video, so this means I should be able to get an 8:04.9 with a really good run. And with TAS maintaining a 4-5 second edge, it might be able to get VERY close to a 7:59.9.
Anyway, this probably won't get any TAS work, since it requires a Game Genie code. But I thought it'd be fun to check it out.
I will upload the video now, and post a link here shortly.
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Game Genie - No Gates - Warp-16 - 8:06.14936
Link to video
29,217 console frames = 486.149361447619 seconds.
Challenger, if you are able to do a test run on this route with the Game Genie Code, and find a way for this 6/4 sprite to access Warp-16 Checkpoint, let me know! :) I'd love to make another video that's 40 seconds faster. haha.
I figured out that this route used for the "blind" game genie run can also be used for the "no GT" route. In the "blind" route, I did the quick step off the ledge, jump & u-turn before the single-up exit. I figured out that if you do the faster dead fall + jump & single crouch + turn & grab before the single-up exit, this gets rid of the "blind" corruption when you warp to level 4. So it is faster on all counts, has no video corruption, and works perfectly for Warp-16 with no clock bug.
Also, this setup is about 17 seconds faster than an optimal execution of the old "no GT" route, as seen in my 11:10 video. In other words, with no other improvements, this could bring the "no GT" route down to 10:53. In that run, I did not do the U-Turn under the crusher in Level 4, and was about 10 seconds off TAS pace in level 19. So I suspect something approaching 10:40 will be possible for humans on the 4/16 non-GT route.
Finally there's a TAS: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70990784938953521
It still uses the fat gate thief route because I'm still testing this game.
This file also includes new improvements to Level 17, and another minor (but better) optimizations than I did years ago.
A route that uses Game Genie code? Interesting.
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That's fantastic! I went back and did a frame count for RTA comparable numbers (as with the TAS projection list on the previous page). As it turns out, you did find enough improvements to break 8:30 by RTA accounting!
The timestamps for my camera recording of the computer monitor gave a total of 08:29.964 = 30,648.231 console frames. So the official count should be 30,648 or 30,649. I won't be able to do a 100% accurate frame count off a monitor, since it doesn't draw frames the same as an old CRT tv, but the general idea is quite evident.
Level 01 -- 5840 [-38]
Level 04 -- 3739 [-15]
Level 05a - 2209 [-0]
Level 05b - _824 [-30]
Level 16 -- 1132 [+24] -- net [-6] between 5b & 16; quicker warp, but more lag.
Level 17 -- 2166 [-8] -- 2 animations saved with better jumps.
Level 18 -- 7651 [-7] -- 2 animations saved with better jumps.
Level 19 -- 5405 [-17]
Level 20 -- 1683 [-3] -- count based on when select menu should have appeared.
94 frames improved since I put together the projection list! That's truly impressive.
I think I've realized an important update for Level 20. It should be a little bit faster to switch the last 2 jumps. If you go back, you will see I experimented with this idea when I posted my first GT1 Full Speedrun (20:15.993) with Warp-6. The reason I disregarded it at the time was because with my inferior handling of the situation, I did not save any time, and assumed it was not an improvement. However, I am more experienced now, and know that it should be easy to hit Jump + Kill simultaneously, as is necessary for the 1st guard in Level 18. This would allow the running jump animations to occur during "free time." This will cut the hallway time dramatically, by requiring only the beginning of a running motion, or the early frames of the standing jump to immediately reach the finish line. I think I'll try to make a new Level 20 recording tonight to demonstrate this. This would be an improvement for any "kill button" route, including FGT & GT1.
Another thing worth discussing -- I think it's important to hit the Select Menu when the Prince "crosses the finish line," so there's a real frame count. Otherwise, it's impossible to visually confirm the end, as you cannot see the Prince behind the curtain to confirm spacing, timing, or any lag.
Despite all this, however, my GT1 world record is more than 3.5 seconds faster, at 8:26.216, and I suspect the TAS for the GT1 route could possibly break 8:20. But it's nice to see that Fat Gate Thief got a good send-off with a fantastic sub-8:30!!!
Yeah I didn't test a running jump yet, but this will be included later.
Akuma wrote:
I think it's important to hit the Select Menu when the Prince "crosses the finish line," so there's a real frame count. Otherwise, it's impossible to visually confirm the end, as you cannot see the Prince behind the curtain to confirm spacing, timing, or any lag.
Since this game is still in progress, I'll include it too, like I did with 2016 TAS.
Well, I have good news! I found new stuff recently:
Link to videoLink to video
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I was able to save 8 frames with the running jump. It's not as much time as I expected. Basically, you cannot kill Jaffar until you are locked into the running jump, so it's a situation where you need to hit kill button + jump button simultaneously. Furthermore, you cannot hit jump button until you have moved far enough forward to escape the "standing jump" override. And finally, you cannot start running until the first possible kill frame (for GT1, that's the first frame where Jaffar is a Blue Monster). If you start running any earlier than that, the first kill frame resets the battle, and you are automatically stopped to draw your sword. So the 24 frames lost on the Jaffar battle are mandatory in order for this trick to work. But this is offset by a 32 frame improvement in the hallway, for a net savings of 8 frames.
In the hallway, I only tried the "Standing Jump." I don't know whether running would be faster or not.
I also saved 1 frame during Jaffar death with the Select Menu, and another 1 frame during the Jaffar intro with the Select Menu. So overall, this was 10 frames better than my previous recording.
1675 console frames = 27.8707663492 seconds.
In this video clip, time is counted from the first frame of Level 20, which the TV finished drawing at about 9.9256760294921437 seconds. Time stopped on the first frame of the Select Menu at the end of the level, at about 37.79644237869849 seconds.
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Gate Thief #1 -- 27.870766 seconds -- 1675 console frames.
Link to video
That's a wild setup for GT1. The 1b segment (single-up to level zero, plus jump down hole #4) is about 4.6 seconds faster than the human 1b+1c segments (single-down + quad up). However, your setup causes about 1.423 seconds of extra lag during the double-jump to hole #1 segment. There was another 1.382 seconds of extra lag for GT1 in the first room, and the first part of the second room. With all this extra lag, most of the savings is lost. I think with optimized movements, this may be about 1.5 seconds faster, altogether.
I don't know if you ever saw this, but there's another way to get GT1, by going to Training Level 2, and using the loose panels to create a glitch hole at the far left of the level, where you climb down and head back to the right. I never bothered with it too much, because I could never figure out how to make it activate kill button, and of course, the problem with Level 1 access. According to your "Training TAS," it only takes about 55 seconds to reach that hole. But I suppose that doesn't leave enough time (11 seconds) to solve the kill button and level 1 access, now that the new GT1 routes are accessing Level 1 in about 66 seconds. haha.
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That's a fun Warp 4 setup. But that warp-8 sprite will not allow for FGT activation at the Warp-16 hole. So as a non-GT alternative, it's about 24 seconds slower than the optimized non-GT warp-4/16 route.
Here's the new movie file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/71191966913851519
This one uses the improved gate thief setup and delays end input after defeating Jaffar.
The new setup adds more lag during those first three rooms, but it's still faster, and when warping to level 16, this time has less lag!
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That's so cool! The only thing that stood out to me (just from watching in real time) was a possible extra animation at the beginning of level 5. I think maybe you can do a different first jump to avoid the extra half step, as you can see in my new World Record video (8:26.216). Of course, if they result in the same animation count, then no need to change. I'll start having a closer look at everything tomorrow.
One other thing that occurs to me from memory: the comparisons weren't perfect, but it seemed like the upper level u-turn in the 5th room of level 1 was just a little bit slower (maybe 3-4 animations) than clipping the edge and falling facing left, before turning towards the gate button. I just thought I'd mention it, in case you hadn't done a more thorough comparison of those two methods for this situation with GT1.
If I see anything else tomorrow, I'll mention it. Otherwise, great job! Really glad to see everything come together.
Now I'm curious to know how realistically low I can take the human run. A sub-8:20 should definitely be possible.
I wish you were interested in TAS'ing my "all 20 levels" GT1 route. It would be a lot of fun to see what strategies I missed, after all the work I've put into GT1.
I think once I'm able to complete a full run, it might gain traction as a legitimate category (aka Warpless). In this case, I would rename the "original" speedrun category as "Glitchless," (no warps, no sprite corruption, no kill button, no GT gate skipping).
What I love best about GT1 is the alternating sword and prince sprites during running and jumping animation sequences. In many cases, the alternating patterns make it extremely easy to tell exactly what the timing is. As I was watching your GT1 TAS, I could see and hear exactly what you were doing the whole time, and knew exactly what you did differently from my videos. haha.
I tested everything, and the u-turn was surprisingly faster.
About Level 5: I got the same result.
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I'm busy with some other projects, but checking every level would be interesting.
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Ok, I just made a quick test video for the TAS. Biz-Hawk frame counter labeled the first frame of level 1 as 1556, and the first frame of the select menu as 31,095. That adds up to 29,539 frames = 8:11.5072. Whereas, the timestamps for my video give roughly 29,541 frames = 8:11.54048.
In either case, 8:11.5xx is magnificent. This is wonderful news for me, because that means I should be able to get a sub-8:20. I'll work very hard to get that soon.
Once this TAS is considered final, I hope you or someone else here can help make a 1080p 60 fps version for publication. It'll be important for posterity that every frame is clearly exhibited.
I put together a few more comparisons. So it looks like the new GT1 setup is actually about 180 frames faster than the human setup (if TAS was doing it); and about 153 frames faster than the old TAS route (with scrambled buttons).
There's also about 170 lag frames saved on levels 16 & 17.
This isn't exact, but roughly 324 frames = 5.4 seconds better on route + lag, so definitely a good justification. So I'll definitely be learning this new setup.
The funny thing is, 100% of the savings comes from the route changes. Technically, this new route has "more lag" than the old route. The reason is, while 170 lag frames are saved on level 16 & 17, more lag is gained during the setup; about 186 extra lag frames between 1c and 1d. So it's a net loss of 16 frames due to lag, against a net savings of perhaps 340 frames of route improvements during the setup.
The question is, will this new setup work for the "all 20 levels" route. It is generally considered best to just beat level 1 in the first segment, so that you don't have to repeat the first 3 rooms beating level 1 later. But beating level 1 first does change the glitches, because jumping past the first guard is different from exiting before the guard room. In this case, beating level 1, exiting level 2 & returning to level 1 for further glitches may require a slightly different setup. Or perhaps it can be done exactly the same. In either case, I suspect there will be a lot more lag at the beginning of Level 2 than we are used to seeing. I'll do some tests tomorrow.
Well, I've confirmed that this faster setup works for the "All 20 Levels" route. That is, beating level 1 first, exiting level 2, and returning to level 1 to acquire GT1. The steps are the same: a single-up at the warp-6 hole to enter "Level Zero," and continuing to 5th room to climb through the hole after the gate; and returning to Level 1 once more to jump through the first hole. After this, you "Continue" to Level 2, without having to enter Level 1 again with GT1, so you can do the faster running jump in the final segment -- no need for the double standing jump.
Unfortunately, climbing down through the hole at the end of the "Level Zero" segment causes a minor button scramble, which only affects the B (jump) Button. On the options menu, it changes it to "Crouch." But in fact, it's more complicated than that. In this case, the B button has Kill Button functionality, as well as Jump functionality, so it's a triple button here. The Jump + Kill have priority, but if you're doing a jump and hold the jump button too long, the Prince will do a buffered crouch at the end of the animation. Pretty weird.
If you stop playback on the TAS, you will find this same button scramble is present for the remainder of the TAS. Obviously, it is not an issue for the TAS. However, for a human player this will be a liability, as any instance of holding the B button for too long may result in a buffered crouch, which will ruin a perfect run. So a human will probably need to waste time resetting the input options, either on the warp-16 route, or the "all 20 levels" warpless route.
As I suspected, lag in Level 2 is terrible. Of course the lag reduction method established in the first 2 rooms of level 2 is essential to avoid further horrendous lag, but the lag associated with the alternate setup extends into the 5th room, costing a lot of extra time. I may try to get a recording later to determine how bad the lag is. Between that and the button scramble, it may not result in any savings for a human at the beginning of a 23 minute run.
I tried different approaches for the single-up, and a couple of different drops at the end of Level Zero, but it keeps coming up with the same button scramble, adding the "Crouch" + Kill + Jump to the B Button. So I'm not sure if there's a way to avoid the button scramble. In any event, the Level 2 lag looks pretty bad.
I've confirmed an 8 frame improvement for level 16. You can hit select 2 animations later, at the beginning of the boss music, and still have enough time to continue running after the music is done. Allowing 2 extra animations to play during boss music is basically free movement, and you will be 2 units closer to the end by the time the boss music is finished.
Also, it may be worthwhile to revisit the idea of jumping closer to the edge of the screen, to allow for several extra animations into the interior of the boss room before hitting pause. For this setup, perhaps a double crouch, to get inside the spikes, then initiate jump as close to the gate as possible. I'll do a few tests, and see if anything looks good.
hmmm, this might actually work. I did the double crouch at the beginning of level 16 (with GT1) to get close enough to spikes to run through without being hit, then last possible jump at gate, and paused when the Prince's head is directly lined up with the Torch. This is the last possible animation to pause. If you paused any later, the 1-frame no-input required for unpausing would result in an interruption in running, and cause a stop.
There are several variables here. For comparison, I made a video with the single crouch method, currently used by TAS, and I paused 1 animation later, to save 4 frames. However, in the double crouch test, I was able to pause 2 animations later, where the Prince has basically landed from the jump.
The double crouch test was 1 animation faster overall, so given the difference in pause time, it appears they may be tied.
I have no way of testing how the TAS will handle these scenarios, so I'll leave that up to you. I look forward to your findings!
It's wonderful how this is all coming together. While the late jump was a great idea, it couldn't be used to improve the FGT route, since FGT could jump straight through the gate while in the air. Since GT1 must crouch to "get close enough to the gate," the second crouch is not as big of a time loss. So if everything else works out, it just might be 1 animation faster with all the savings in the next room.
I made a quick test video to show what I'm talking about.
Link to video
I'm having trouble with your new setup. In your latest video, after the guard, and the single-up, you stay in "Corrupt Level Zero", and navigate to "hole #4", climb up and back down to exit.
I've been trying to copy this setup exactly, and it never works. My result is that I have to jump through "hole #1" twice. Even if I do it correct the first time, I come back to level 1, and it's still the warp-6 sprite, and not gt1 yet. So I do it again, and then finally it's gt1. Furthermore, whenever this happens, I'm getting the clock bug on level 16.
However, if I go to "hole #4", turn and fall, this is perfectly fine. GT1 on first attempt, and no clock bug later.
Do you have any idea what I might be doing wrong? I think this isn't a huge problem, because turning and falling may only lose a few animations, not enough to ruin the whole setup. But it's still frustrating that I can't figure out what's going wrong. Did you take note of any variations in your movement where this was happening to you?
Yeah it occurred with me too when I tested without TASing. I have exactly no idea why it fails (actually didn't expect climb up and back down to work successfully).
But that alternative method (turn and fall) is really easier to get GT1.
About Level 16: I'll test it later. Interesting stuff.
EDIT: Tested it using my current GT1 TAS, but I didn't gain frames. I don't know if is due to more lag in this stage or something else.
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Well, I discovered a while ago how some sprites allows you to bypass gates through a different way, but now I discovered that also works with narrow walls:
Link to video
Now Level 19 can be improved! I'll check if there are more useful locations for "all levels" category.
EDIT: Unfortunately I only found two useful points:
Although this wall isn't narrow, you can at least trigger next room transition and checkpoint, at the cost from dying because of these spikes from previous room.
These spikes are dangerous! If we could manage a safely landing...
Fun fact: you can use kill ability in this room to defeat that golden skeleton lol
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I found a good setup to fall through the floor on Training Level 2, room #3, to fall down into the lower half of the level. It's not possible to bring "Invincibility Mode" into Training, but if there was a similar pattern in the game, it might be possible to fall through a floor and land safely.
That picture you made of the Prince hanging in Level 12, you can put rubble there, and do an "up" glitch. I've done some pre-glitch buffers in other places, then come to Level 12 to try this. I haven't found anything useful yet. In some cases, it resets Level 12 (basically a Warp-12) with excellent glitchy video corruption.
I can already tell that the wall clip at the top of level 19 will be faster than the normal route. The wall clip at the bottom may also save a little bit, but not as much.
It may be possible to do a wall clip on the left side of the Boss Room in Level 19. Theoretically, it should be the same spacing as the clip in Level 3 (see below), with 1 unit of wall before the edge of the screen. With a good clip, we may be able to temporarily "see" the room after the Boss Fight, before being pushed back into the Boss Room. I wonder if this will cause any chaos with the Battle Programming.
I made a nice video for Level 3. With the wall clip to catch the checkpoint, the level can be finished at least 13.744 seconds faster (826 console frames). With tight select menu usage during death, I also managed to get a 1:08 displayed on the clock, with the password showing 485 time units (1:08.470588).
The recording clocks in at 4,680 console frames, which equals 77.871753 seconds (the difference in real clock and game clock is due to holding select menu up while death music plays).
I'll add the video below, after it's done uploading. And I'll check level 19 tomorrow.
More on the Level 3 clip:
The mechanics work in such a way that if you try to clip through a wall that is 2+ units thick, the Prince will bounce back, slightly below ground level, then pop up to the ground, so the game thinks it's a "landing" from above, and the active spikes cause death from "landing" on them. The spikes don't have to be there for the Check Point to be acquired. Simply "seeing" the Check Point room saves progress. However, it is convenient to have the spikes right there, as otherwise, you would have to go die somewhere else before you could access the checkpoint progress.
In order to do this clip when the wall is 2+ units thick, you must approach the wall, then turn away from it. The Prince must complete the turning motion for 1 animation before you can turn back to the wall. When turning back, continue holding forward through the turn, and the Gate Thief will begin running in place. In this particular setup, there is 1 full unit of wall before the edge of the screen. In order to get out of the looping run animation, and extend the Prince's hit box past 1 unit, and thus, into the next room, you have to do a running jump. Depending on the timing of his stride, half the jump sounds will result in an early wall collision and failure, while the other half will put him far enough into the wall to cross the edge of the screen. So you have to pick the correct running jump timing in order for this to work.
However, as we have seen in Challenger's test video for Level 19, a running jump is not needed in order to clip through a 1-unit wall that has a floor on the other side.
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Gate Thief #1 - Level 3 - 1:08 - 485 - 4,680.
Link to video
4,680 console units = 77.871753142857142857 seconds.
Haha!! And I got an excellent video for Level 19, with both wall clips!!!
This was exactly what I wanted to do for all parts, so 100% execution. So it'll be up to Challenger's TAS Machines to brainstorm any improvements.
I actually improved the back half by 3 frames over my previous best. I saved 130 frames on the first wall clip, and 122 frames on the second wall clip, for a total improvement of 255 frames over my previous best.
The frame count is 4,744 console frames = 78.9366660063492 seconds.
The password is 496 time units, with 1:10 displayed on the clock. I think it's possible a 495 or 494 will change the display down to 1:09. But this may not be obtainable with current strategies; even though Challenger was able to save some time on Level 19, he was not able to improve upon my game clock count of 528 time units. So there may not be enough movement improvements available to get down to 1:09.
With a solid 4 seconds being saved by these wall clips, the Warp-16 TAS Route should be down around 8:07.3141, by RTA counting.
And for my "All 20 Levels" projection, we're down to 81,806 console frames = 22:41.191589231746. Nice!
I'm thinking if you gave "All 20 Levels" the works, it might get all the way down below 22:30. :O
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Gate Thief #1 - Level 19 - 1:10 - 496 - 4744 - 60 fps.
Link to video
4,744 console frames = 78.9366660063492 seconds.
Although this wall isn't narrow, you can at least trigger next room transition and checkpoint, at the cost from dying because of these spikes from previous room.
These spikes are dangerous! If we could manage a safely landing...
Fun fact: you can use kill ability in this room to defeat that golden skeleton lol