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Posted: 10/6/2012 9:16 PM
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TheKDX7
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Good news! Hasten to see the completeness of the run. Would have finished you before the end of the year?
Posted: 10/6/2012 9:20 PM
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Noxxa
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TheKDX7 wrote:
Good news! Hasten to see the completeness of the run. Would have finished you before the end of the year?
I hope so. Most major hurdles (DNA souls luck manipulation, Sigma 2 fortress boss, and most of the stages) should have been passed by now. The worst things I can think of are more moving platforms in stage 3, and possibly some complications with the Gareth and Sigma fights. Other than that, it should be mostly straightforward from now on.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 10/6/2012 9:55 PM
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TheKDX7
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Mothrayas wrote:
TheKDX7 wrote:
Good news! Hasten to see the completeness of the run. Would have finished you before the end of the year?
I hope so. Most major hurdles (DNA souls luck manipulation, Sigma 2 fortress boss, and most of the stages) should have been passed by now. The worst things I can think of are more moving platforms in stage 3, and possibly some complications with the Gareth and Sigma fights. Other than that, it should be mostly straightforward from now on.
OK thank you for the information, good luck for the continuation
Posted: 1/1/2013 5:30 AM
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Noxxa
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It's done and submitted. #3812: Noxxa's GBC Mega Man Xtreme 2 "Xtreme Mode" in 27:06.62
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 12/2/2019 2:08 AM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/59688834986020373 Here is a start of a resync of the xtreme 2 run to GBHawk. It only is synced though the intro stage. RNG looks like it will be way off for this one, so I probably won't really try to complete this one after how grueling the first xtreme game was. For completeness here is the verification file resynced too. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/59687251167657941 So at least this takes away the tedium of having to convert the files. The first Xtreme game was way too much of a time sink, so if anything I'll only periodically come back to this one and slowly sync it up. Not sure if any real improvements in game knowledge have been found since the run was published or what improvements are possible.
Posted: 1/9/2021 9:16 PM
(Edited: 3/21/2021 10:56 PM)
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/68677201607586094 Here is a partial resync of Xtreme 2 that works in the current GBHawk build. It beats Flame Mammoth and starts the next level. I console verified this movie up to beating Flame mammoth, so if a complete run ever gets redone it should work on console as well. Compared to the original VBA movie, there is a lot more lag, so things are slightly slower overall. Also here is a resynced verification movie for completeness: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/68657981202423899 In terms of strategy I think staying as Zero would be faster overall but only if there is quick way to kill the mini boss in Launch Octopus' stage.
Posted: 3/7/2021 4:19 AM
(Edited: 3/21/2021 10:56 PM)
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/69927227682947055 Here is a WIP with only zero that reaches launch otcopus' stage. Zero can still defeat neon tiger with 7 attacks, and can still beat the stage about as fast as X (discounting added lag in a few places) so right now no time is really lost. Not having to buy X's two weapon upgrades saves 5 seconds. Not having to equip them and switch back and fourth to zero saves about 5 as well. X's animation when entering a level is slower then zero's by about 20 frames, so this adds up to 1 second of savings as well. So overall I should have 11 seconds saved versus the current run. Currently my best attempt at a quick kill on the octopus mini boss is about 4 seconds slower. I'm not sure if zero can defeat the remaining bosses in 7 attacks or not, if so and he can still navigate levels as well as X, I should be comfortably ahead once the runs recombine in the Sigma stages. Also not having to heavily manipulate RNG for extra money makes this whole process much easier.
Posted: 3/7/2021 9:51 AM
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Noxxa
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Cool WIP, will be interesting to see how the route works out in the end.
Alyosha wrote:
I'm not sure if zero can defeat the remaining bosses in 7 attacks or not
He can not (without subscreen weapons or Saber+2), that's why I used X for those stages to begin with. This would add up one second for each of those three bosses. Zero also can't use Ray Claw to cut Launch Octopus' arms (Rising does not have the same effect). This mostly means the fight will have more lag added to it. Since you're not getting X's upgrades (saving money) but also not manipulating RNG for extra money, when are you planning to get Saber+2?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 3/7/2021 3:41 PM
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Alyosha
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Unless the Sigma 1 or 2 bosses can be sped up with Saber 2, I'll just be getting it at the same time as the current run. I haven't really thought that much about it yet honestly, still checking to see it if this route is feasible. Looks like I'll be losing maybe 2 seconds with zero not being able to shoot enemies far in front of him, so it will be pretty close.
Posted: 3/7/2021 3:46 PM
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Noxxa
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Saber+2 brings the number of hits on Velguarder (Sigma 1 boss) down from 8 to 6. That would be two seconds saved there. However, that requires luck-manipulating for money at the same rate as my run (if not slightly more because you have less stages to do it in), in order to get 2000 before Sigma 1. I don't think it'll change much for Isaz & Sowilo, as Drill Crush does 6 damage to them either way.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 3/7/2021 3:57 PM
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Alyosha
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Hmm, that means I need to average about 50 income per level, sounds pretty tedious. With how close things are, it might be the only way to definitely be ahead though. Do you happen to have any scripts or memory addresses still left from your original run for luck manipulation?
Posted: 3/7/2021 4:01 PM
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Noxxa
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I have a bunch of general memory addresses, but unfortunately nothing for the RNG. I've lost all my other resources for this game since then.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 3/13/2021 2:03 AM
(Edited: 3/21/2021 10:55 PM)
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70058201114250334 Here is a WIP of launch octopus stage with zero. It is 400 frames slower then the original, a bit more then i was expecting, which means this route is now only barely on the edge of being viable. Launch octopus is weak to lightning, so I could get a 6 hit kill, but it's probably the same speed as just hitting him 8 times after all the menuing. So just to summarize. ~11 seconds are saved by not getting any of X's weapons and the associated actions plus zero having a faster load in animation. Then ~7 seconds are lost on launch octopus stage and ~3 seconds are lost on bosses that now take 8 hits instead of 7. I think exit animations are about the same, and the weapon texts I think are roughly equal overall, so as long as I can beat the remaining two levels while only losing one second, I'll be able to be 2 seconds ahead if I get Saber 2 and get 6 hit kill on valguarder. It's pretty crazy how 2 completely different routes are less then ~150 frames apart overall.
Posted: 3/14/2021 1:35 AM
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Alyosha
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I have started redoing things with RNG in mind and aiming for early saber 2. One thing I did was forgo damage in the intro stage. This cost 10 frames but allowed me to farm 60 money without having to worry about the lag time of healing up when collecting it. Right now I have 100 money and am 2/3 into flame mammoth stage. I also I found that jumping up to the conveyor here: Is about 30 frames faster then climbing the wall, and I don't have to take damage so I can try to do a bit more farming. This can be done in the original run too, so it doesn't really count as a time save for the new route, but does make farming money just a little bit easier.
Posted: 3/17/2021 12:04 AM
(Edited: 3/21/2021 10:55 PM)
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Alyosha
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Here is a new wip that gets back to launch octopus about 1 second ahead of my previous attempt: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70145395782161866 This time though I already have almost all the money I need to get Saber 2 before Sigma 1. It wasn't as annoying as I thought it would be. I probably could have been less aggressive at farming early on and saved maybe 20 more frames, but at the risk of RNG taking a turn for the worse I think I'll leave it as it is. Now all I need to do is get a good launch octopus fight and I should be able to complete the run.
Posted: 3/19/2021 4:25 AM
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Alyosha
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Well seems like the zero route is dead. Not being able to kill enemies fast leads to lots of extra lag in later levels. Plus zero can't kill the last three enemies before the mini boss in the hornet's stage as fast as X. There is no way I can catch up to the several seconds I lost. I think it's faster overall to change to X later in Tiger's Stage, and it's definitely a time save to take the overhead path in flame mammoth's stage, so I guess now I'll just try to improve the original route. At least farming doesn't seem to be so bad.
Posted: 3/19/2021 7:50 AM
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Noxxa
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Aww, that's unfortunate. I'd hoped to be able to see the exact difference in time between my route and the Zero-only route, since it's still only a matter of seconds, but I guess we already know the most important part now (that the Zero-only route is definitely slower).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 3/20/2021 2:56 AM
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Alyosha
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I'm still going compare my WIPs to the original route and post my results once I get back up to the same point, but it's already clear that Zero's lack of reach is just way too costly. the combination of the fish / mini boss in octopus' stage, the climb in catfish's stage, and the climb / enemies in Hornet's stage was just too much. Anyway, I've redone the first 4 bosses and am 1 second ahead with plenty of money for now. I'm going to compare going through tiger's stage with zero and X, I think it's going to be better overall to switch to just before entering the second ride armor. Also Zero can go through the first part of Sigma 1's stage much faster then X (it looks like X needs to stall for about 2 seconds to wait for platforms), so maybe it is preferable to switch to zero on the last hit of hornet, since velguarder will take 8 hits anyway. EDIT: It's about 40 frames faster to do Tiger's Stage as Zero. Since zero can also defeat tiger in 7 hits, I wonder if it is better to beat the level as tiger and switch in octopus. Then we save 20 frames of load in animation from X, but maybe it's not worth it not to have the claw attack.
Posted: 3/21/2021 10:29 PM
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Alyosha
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Here is a more careful comparison up to catfish's stage. Currently Zero is ~160 frames ahead. X route: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70254910989155755 Zero route: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70254895436613917 Just based on known factors, zero will lose 2 seconds to the 2 remaining bosses, but regain them on velguarder. In addition ~100 frames will be saved once I need to switch back to X. So zero has to do the next 2 levels within about 250 frames of X to stay ahead. It seems almost doable, but my last attempt made it seem far off. I'm going to retry though since it just seems so close. EDIT: I did a rough draft of X's climb in Catfish's stage. It turns out you also have to add a lot of lag to X's climb as well, it seems like VBA did not emulate this game especially accurately. He can still do it a bit faster then zero, but it's really not by much. I think not accounting for lag in X's resync is what led me to think that zero would be a lot slower, now that I am re-syncing and doing a direct comparison, zero isn't losing much time in Catfish's stage. he will still ose a good chunk of time in Hornet's stage, this is unavoidable, but maybe with enough work it will work out. At the very least, I have plenty of money in both runs, at this point it's basically a non-issue.
Posted: 4/1/2021 3:19 AM
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Alyosha
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Turns out zero can make a time saving in Hornet's stage: This saves about 1.5 seconds, and I think this is enough to guarantee zero to be faster overall. I had resynced zero up to sigma 3, and zero is slightly slower in sigma 2 which about cancels out the timesave in sigma 1. With saber 2 he can beat the boss a bit faster though. Without this timesave it was neck and neck, really within frames, it would have been difficult to actually conclude that zero was faster, but I think this new time save is enough to put zero over the top.
Posted: 4/3/2021 3:46 AM
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Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70526268622635359 Complete game WIP here. The refights are mostly the same as the original. There is a lot of extra lag once respawning in the main lobby after each fight, not really surprising considering how much lag has added up in the game so far. Also a lot of extra lag on Sigma, maybe destroying some of his green ball attacks can cut down on it, but sometimes that also causes extra lag too, I'll try some things and see what happens. I think this is close to done though. I console verified up to the start of Sigma 3, which is also good as it means all the extra lag is at least accurate to console.
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