Here's another option. Evil suggested using the game genie code anyways and not submit the run to tasvideos (we'd likely still post updates here though).
If everyone involved with the run prefers to do that, then good luck to you. At the end of the day I'm just wanting to see all of your fantastic work again, regardless of how it is presented.
If everyone involved with the run prefers to do that, then good luck to you. At the end of the day I'm just wanting to see all of your fantastic work again, regardless of how it is presented.
And present it we shall! There's a good chance it'll be me and Evil working on that project so I don't think that'll be an issue.
So I did end up making an Icecap Ring Attack testrun for Knuckles like I said I would. I manage to work out everything that was a concern for this level (well except finding a way to gain control during the 2nd score tally).
Link to video
Here's a somewhat late update on the Sonic any% tas. I looked through the whole tas to see if there were any improvements I missed. I found 2. Once I figure out what to do about Redeye (haven't really attempted it again yet) it'll be ready for submission.
CNZ2- Saved 119 frames by finally making Knuckles' route work for Sonic. Apparently with the barrel of doom clip there was literally only one vertical position that worked because of the bubble shield bounce.
MHZ2- Saved 5 frames after the loop that's after the big ring room. I used a faster exit out of Knuckles' area with the mushrooms.
This was so awesome. Amazing! Thanks for posting. How did you manage to make it back down the mountain so smoothly? I seem to recall that was an issue for me at the time...
This was so awesome. Amazing! Thanks for posting. How did you manage to make it back down the mountain so smoothly? I seem to recall that was an issue for me at the time...
Glad you enjoyed it :D
Getting down the mountain was actually quite easy. All I did was land on the steep slope near the top and then run down the mountain. To collect the rings I just slowed down enough to not clip through the floor.
I thought of a better way to handle going up the mountain. Get the camera to max horizontal speed, but don't outrun it too much. I ended up having to kill a lot of my speed before jumping so that I didn't get past the rings before the were able to load.
So, this is dumb, but for lack of other conversation I'd like to go ahead and suggest/recommend the following.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=063o22FBjVshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sa6jusKIss
Yes, at the same time - one muted, take a wild guess which. I'm still doing it but seem to be having pretty good results with the TAS 40-45 seconds behind. In doing so it occurs to me, by the way, that when laymen watch AIZ they might be like "Wtf?" but when those who know do they'll be like, "Damn..." It took balls, you guys, to do it the way that you did... I still think it was a good decision.
/delurk
I have been seeing all the new tech for the game, and thinking of coming back into it to update the S+T any%, HS+T newgame+, and T any% runs. I can see the following (potential?) improvements:
S+T any%:
Break second loop in AIZ1 to skip the tree;
MGZ1 level wrap into skip;
CNZ1 level wrap using spindash into spikes instead of lookup+drop into spikes; also maybe using T to make barrel bob up and down while Sonic spindashes through;
ICZ2 boss skip;
MHZ2 early capsule hit?
FBZ1 level wrap in starting area using Tails;
SOZ1 new level wrap using slope at start;
SOZ2 wall entrances through loops, maybe slide skip;
LRZ1 new level wrap right at the start;
DEZ1 gravity skip, maybe?
HS+T newgame+:
Improve second loop break in AIZ1 to skip the tree (avoids using a hyper flash and losing speed);
MGZ1 level wrap into skip;
CNZ1 S+T any% level wrap is probably faster now;
ICZ2 boss skip;
MHZ2 early capsule hit?
FBZ1 level wrap in starting area using Tails;
SOZ1 new level wrap using slope at start;
SOZ2 last wall entrances through loop might save time;
LRZ1 new level wrap right at the start.
For T any%, it is slim pickings:
MGZ1 level wrap into skip;
ICZ2 boss skip;
SOZ2 wall entrances through loops;
LRZ1 new level wrap right at the start might be possible.
Have I missed any? And any takers to help me optimize, considering how rusty I probably am?
Oh shoot you're getting back into tasing? That's awesome. In that case you might as well have the finished Sonic Alone run. The submission for that should be out soon btw.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/213787753/kaan55%20S3K%20Sonic%20alone%20any.gmv
Here are a few other improvements I can think of right now.
S+T any%:
AIZ1- Do the zip in the beginning of firey AIZ like in NG+?
CNZ2- Can be beaten faster by taking Knuckles' any% route like in my Sonic any% run. Can probably do a better barrel clip with Tails' help.
SOZ2- Possibility of level wrap via light switch glitch.
DEZ2- Faster level wrap by doing kind of a stair clip from the extending stairs.
For T any%:
LBZ2: Possibility of level wrap. If Amy can do it Tails can in theory do it too.
DEZ2: Faster level wrap through first extending stairs. Will probably use similar method to Sonic any%
I can help you optimize. Might not be the worst idea to stair with T any% given how rusty you are.
About S+T:
AIZ1 zip after the fire is sadly not possible without HS: you can't get far enough in it to hit the spikes and stop without being too high to be ejected out of the floor. Though now that I think about it, it might be possible to push Tails into the floor of the flamer area and zip him out to give Sonic a push.
That is a nice route for CNZ2, I had missed that.
SOZ2 is not possible to level wrap; it has a 16-pixel wide column of solid tiles at the very start, followed by a wide gap without any terrain. You would need a speed of more than 32 pixels/frame, meaning zipping on a downward slope and jumping, which is not available.
I don't think that DEZ2 level wrap will be faster for S+T than what is already present in the run. You still need to wait for the stairs to extend so you can enter the terrain, and there is nothing to bump into to quickly halt momentum. But it might be possible to stop Sonic in a higher position in the extending stairs, so that Tails can drop him more quickly (i.e., climbing "up" less) due to not having to move the camera.
For T any%:
Amy can do the LBZ2 level wrap? Is there an easy movie available? I need to check, but I think that she can do it because her standing height is higher than Tails'. If this is the case, then Tails can't do it.
DEZ2 level wrap: ah, I forgot, Tails can likely do it earlier, in the first stairs. Nice catch.
Out of curiosity, which OS are you on? I am currently on Windows, so I was thinking of maybe moving the runs to use Bizhawk instead of Gens. Although to be fair, changing from an inaccurate emulator to another slightly less inaccurate emulator is not much of a win, as far as I am concerned...
S+T:
AIZ1: It is possible. I've managed to do it. It seems that one of the new techs you've overlooked is the new way to do stair clips with S+T. Basically you have Tails be the thing that kills Sonic's Horizontal speed. Here's an example.
Link to video
SOZ2: Ah but all that is available. The only problem is this level wrap will be insanely difficult to pull off. (the inputs in the video below are mine btw)
Link to video
DEZ2: You can have Sonic zip left then use Tails to clip into the ground.
For T:
LBZ2: Here, I somehow didn't notice this earlier but Amy did it by doing Down+A.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/202407449/anypercent-speedrun.gmv
My OS is windows 8.1 (desktop) and 7 (laptop). However I've had issues with getting Bizhawk to run on either of them. Also, none of the tools appear to have been ported to Bizhawk. Personally I'm fine with using gens.
I know about the S+T stair clips by halting momentum; T solo can do them as well, and I have one lined up for T in S1 on SLZ1 that I have been procrastinating about implementing for years. I did not think it was possible in that spot, because the hyper dash has some very useful properties for entering terrain that are not easy to replicate.
Can you share a gmv for SOZ2 movie so I can take a peek at the inputs?
The Amy movie only goes to the middle of MGZ1, I think you picked the wrong one. But if Amy does it with down+A, Tails is boned either way.
Oh well those stair clips are not too hard for me. S+T is very broken in this regard because they can do a lot of the stair clips HS can plus more.
Here's the SOZ2 gmv and savestate. I think if we get a bit more speed here we will get the proper lineup. The main problem I'm having is that the slopes stop you with most of time.
SOZ2 gmvSOZ2 savestate
That's odd. Dehacked even shows it as a 26 minute movie. Oh well I uploaded it again just in case. I was thinking Tails was boned too because I didn't notice the Down+A until now. I even tried going at it with a bit more speed by jumping from spinning cup above but that didn't seem to work either. Oh well, LBZ2 looks like a fun level anyways :p
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/65058854/anypercent-speedrun.gmv
Here are a few more improvements I thought of for Tails
HCZ2: Faster boss fight by having Tails go above the upper boundary of the boss. Might even be able to get a frame perfect kill.
LBZ2: Possibility of beating the second boss in one pass.
LRZ1: Clip through the collapsing bridges like in my Sonic run. Tails may also be able to take a faster route by exploiting the downward zipping you can do with his flight.
We can get enough speed for a level wrap with those inputs (need at least 11777 if x = 46:0 is reached, I managed to reach 12259 without issues); the problem is positioning. We need to be able to reach position 266 with a speed of at least 11777 (and not a lot more). So far, I have managed to get to position 261 with the necessary speed, which just bumps into the wall.
After looking at how it is done, I managed to eliminate the LRZ2 level wrap from T run, he cannot do it. Also, now that I saw the technique, I agree that the AIZ1 zip will be easily doable, Tails can just set it up and drop Sonic into the floor. It is not at all what I have for SLZ1 in TiS1, which requires careful speed management to be possible.
Will look into the other suggestions.
marzo, guessing that's a typo and you mean LBZ2 :D ... there is one in standalone S3 for Tails that we use, I think some people have tested it on S3K and haven't been able to get it to work.
But given in RTA S3K runs we just soft reset after defeating the 2nd LBZ1 knux boss to get to MH (I guess that's also a benefit of switching to BizHawk is you save frames in cutscene skips).
Here's the Standalone S3 Tails wrap (at 14:10 - Sonic is similar too in standalone S3):
Link to video
I doubt this will work as is, but might give ideas for getting something to work for S3K.
Also, thinking about it, CN might be quicker with the new S+T RTA route with some changes.
This is the current route in the WR, which is a 0:48, and 0:32
https://youtu.be/hK5cNdHoKoY?t=452
Known changes that can be made:
Tails can be manipulated by 1p Sonic to get a 0:42 in act 1, so a 2p controlled Tails should be able to knock that down.
Wheel glitch wrap from the platform under the wheel, should save ~4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZiz7upBvq8
Stair clip whilst in the ceiling (using 2P tails to cancel sonic's momentum rather than bubble shield in this video), should bring act 2 to under 30s easily.
https://youtu.be/92HNLFhlwj8?t=106
So worst case for S+T is probably a 38 + 29. :)
Ok cool I'm glad we're on the same page with the stair clips now. I think I know what you have for SLZ1. Given how hard it is I can help you with that if you want.
Wow it looks like you got better results than I did for the SOZ2 level wrap. Can I have a look at that gmv? Maybe I'll be able to get a level wrap out your inputs.
Oh yeah there are the new discoveries with wheel glitch in CNZ. We may have to tas both wheel and non-wheel glitch because either one could end up being faster. In Sonic's new non-wheel glitch CN2 route there are a few decent sized timesaves we could go for with Tails' help.
That Tails level wrap won't work in S3K. For some reason in S3 alone straight walls don't trigger vertical zips.
My typo was actually in that I eliminated LRZ1 level wrap, but LBZ2 is also eliminated because of the different method Amy uses.
I had not considered the resets when moving to BizHawk; that would indeed be a big benefit. The downside would be having to use the slower level wrap in LBZ1 to get wheel glitch, or maybe fight from the top corner of the boss arena. Either option would probably be slower, but skipping LBZ2 (boss) and the transition cutscene will more than make up for the lost time.
The wheel glitch is currently not being used in the TASes (except T any%) because it is slower than the other methods in use; maybe if it can be used to save enough more time in the second act than it wastes in the first, then it could become viable. Worth a shot anyway.
In S3&K, they added a check to forcibly enable zipping when the angle is a multiple of 90 degrees; zipping is normally disabled when you are not moving mostly horizontally. This prevents the S3 floor/ceiling entrances by running down/up a vertical wall into a floor/ceiling.
So, after trying a while to obtain the SOZ2 level wrap, I decided to go another route. I hacked a save state to give me the perfect position and speed to get a level wrap. You end up on the loopback area, on the place corresponding to where the first push switch you encounter on the level (just right of the first sandfall). With the version I made, the level wrap put me inside the floor under the switch. This allows me to go under to the position corresponding to the area with the giant ring in Knuckles' path, which puts me more-or-less on the right Y position for the boss. I can also use the slope at the left to go up, or fall to its left to go further down.
I had to fall, and move quite a bit to the left on the loopback area in order to be teleported to the boss arena, and even then it took a while for the camera to catch up I managed to crash the game several times in the process of getting to the correct position.
So at least in theory, the level wrap is possible and leads to the desired results. Time now to investigate if the positioning required is at all possible.
Welcome back Marzo! I can't wait to see how much Sonic runs will be destroyed this time, and if you are interested we have some more new improvements for the Knuckles run.
Also, I encoded the Sonic any% TAS so people can watch it.
Link to video
Hey Evil_3D and Kaan55! Congratulations on achieving special Star ranking. At the end of the day, what you guys have created is a real and lasting contribution to culture. I hope you'll be able to look back on this project for years to come as a source of personal pride. It was an honor working with you both. If you guys are still struggling, pressed for time, with regards to the submission text and if you think I may be able to help in any way then I welcome you to hit me up privately. I may have more time on my hands... Also thanks to everyone for their kind comments in the submission thread, ages ago now, and also welcome back Marzojr - looking forward to whatever you may end up producing!
Hey Evil_3D and Kaan55! Congratulations on achieving special Star ranking. At the end of the day, what you guys have created is a real and lasting contribution to culture. I hope you'll be able to look back on this project for years to come as a source of personal pride. It was an honor working with you both. If you guys are still struggling, pressed for time, with regards to the submission text and if you think I may be able to help in any way then I welcome you to hit me up privately. I may have more time on my hands... Also thanks to everyone for their kind comments in the submission thread, ages ago now, and also welcome back Marzojr - looking forward to whatever you may end up producing!
Hey long time no see! Thanks for the congrats man. It was quite a journey which I already look back with pride.
And thanks for the offer with the submission text. I think I’ll pm you right now actually
Thanks to Ben for showing his current RTA route for S3&K special stage 5 and opening my eyes on how fast it's to navigate between different sections by jumping over the red spheres instead of going through the middle...
Here's a further optimized route which is 122 frames faster than the currently published knuckles 100% TAS: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/63404872837707951
I just got done watching the (relatively) new Sonic 3 and Knuckles “Sonic” TAS. I don’t know if anyone has pointed it out before, but there is a potential way to optimize LBZ on any non-knuckles run that has been utilized in many speedruns.
Is there any good reason we don’t use a save file and play on “no save” mode, because this does require it to progress.
It’s shown off at 12:24 in the video below.
Link to video
It is puzzling to me as it is ~60s faster in raw time, and about 25s faster than what’s currently done in the Sonic any% TAS.
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper)
"Now that's a map!'
XD
I just got done watching the (relatively) new Sonic 3 and Knuckles “Sonic” TAS. I don’t know if anyone has pointed it out before, but there is a potential way to optimize LBZ on any non-knuckles run that has been utilized in many speedruns.
Is there any good reason we don’t use a save file and play on “no save” mode, because this does require it to progress.
It’s shown off at 12:24 in the video below.
Link to video
It is puzzling to me as it is ~60s faster in raw time, and about 25s faster than what’s currently done in the Sonic any% TAS.
Gens doesn't support soft resets in TASes so cannot utilise strats that need a reset to load a save file. And BizHawk currently doesn't have all the useful tools that TASers use (Camhack, solidity viewer, etc etc)
I’m not sure how much this is in demand, but I have been working on a Sonic alone, zipless TAS.
It is not glitchless. I have only banned zipping, level wrapping, and all forms of antigravity glitches (wheel glitch, AsIntended, slope glitch). Screen wrapping, and going through sprites and walls is allowed, so long as zipping is not performed.
I have also decided that I want to utilize soft resets in this TAS (though none of them are in yet) and as thus, am using BizHawk to do so.
My initial master plan was to start with the 2005 TAS from SprintGod as a base, and while most levels have been properly synced with that, a few levels have not been able to be properly synced. I have begun to include some improvements in, with the largest by far being the double spin dash in Flying Battery 2.
Current progress is seen in this photo. The test to the left of the level is what TAS I took inputs from (SG05 is SprintGod v2, Nitsujia07 is nitsujia v2, k55 is currently kaan55’s bonus TAS) (after all, why reinvent the wheel?)
While I have posted two userfiles to the site, the most recent one is only up to the end of MH2, and this goes up to Sandopolis 1, though inputs for Sandopolis 2 are in but not synced yet. (I believe I’m one to two frames late) The download link below will give you the proper progress.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=81800517785878484703
I’m open to any and all improvements, so long as they follow the rule set.
Video up to MH2 is here:
Link to video
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper)
"Now that's a map!'
XD
While I have posted two userfiles to the site, the most recent one is only up to the end of MH2, and this goes up to Sandopolis 1, though inputs for Sandopolis 2 are in but not synced yet. (I believe I’m one to two frames late) The download link below will give you the proper progress.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=81800517785878484703
I’m open to any and all improvements, so long as they follow the rule set.
Video up to MH2 is here:
Link to video
