Posted: 11/14/2019 10:13 AM
Post subject: Uncertainty on YouTube COPPA Regulations
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
I'm sorry if I'm casting rather a wide net, but it's better to be safe than sorry. Recently, YouTube has had a bit of a stoush with the Federal Trade Commission over how COPPA is applied on its website. This situation, and the fallout from it, has hits multiple news sites. The Verge has an article covering the changes in YouTube's rules for example. YouTube's own guidelines on this situation leave me a bit berfuddled, because whilst they consider "games" to be content aimed at children, I do not know how this actually affects video games, and for TASVideos, and uploaders - both former and present - of TAS-related content, this might actually be a bit of a problem. In addition, the process for manually changing individual videos - not all content on my YouTube channel is of TAS's, or even entirely of video games - is incredibly laboursome, and it's very undesirable to set the entire channel as being for children. Particularly since some videos are definitely not child friendly. I come here asking if this is a situation that the TASVideos staff, particularly the publishers, have come to any terms with. If action does need to be taken, I'll contact the other ex-publishers I've kept tabs with over this time. Hopefully, the consensus is that we don't need to do anything. But if we do need to do something, I hope we can figure out speedy procedures for setting individual videos as being for children - because right now, the tools Google supply for doing this on YouTube are actually awful to use. Also, obligatory YouTube corporate video discussing the matter.
Posted: 11/14/2019 10:28 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Some thoughts on the matter: <Mothrayas> Nach: every youtube channel received a message to set up in their channel settings whether the channel is "made for kids" <Mothrayas> which also links to this https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9528076 (determining if content is "made for kids") <Nach> Mothrayas: and kids being <13 right? <Mothrayas> Nach: according to that page, yes <Nach> Mothrayas: I wouldn't say our content is made for 0-12 year olds <Mothrayas> Nach: yeah, I thought the same <Nach> Mothrayas: we have several videos for games that are rated T and M, which is past 12, and further, even for those that are E or K->A, most young children probably won't understand them <Mothrayas> Nach: yeah, I figured the same <Nach> Mothrayas: Since Google is now able to detect with decent accuracy which game a video is depicting, and it knows what the rating for a game is, they probably already know many of our videos are for T or M games
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 11/14/2019 10:52 AM
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Spikestuff
They/Them
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Posts: 6444
Location: The land down under.
Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
Flygon wrote:
In addition, the process for manually changing individual videos
Just to point out this part YouTube did update their settings to just go "do all the videos, done." Anyone that's on the same account level can correct me on this since I looked for it on just videos alone in the "manually changing" method. It appears that non-partnered accounts cannot do the manually adjust the channel to be for or not for kids. TASVideosChannel as we all know isn't partnered. Again, if someone who isn't partnered can show that it can be manually fine tuned on selected videos please show cause I can't find it on where it's supposed to be located.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 11/14/2019 5:38 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I believe that the best option is to choose "I want to review this setting for every video", and then on each published video set the setting according to the game's own official age rating. I think that would make the most sense.
Posted: 11/14/2019 5:45 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11489
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
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Nach wrote:
most young children probably won't understand them
That's what I think. If a child understands TASing, that child knows how to access the actual site beyond youtube and how to pull off ACE in SNES games.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/14/2019 5:58 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
most young children probably won't understand them
That's what I think. If a child understands TASing, that child knows how to access the actual site beyond youtube and how to pull off ACE in SNES games.
I imagine most 11 and 12 year olds who have been using computers and the web for a while will be perfectly capable of visiting our site, and playing SNES games on their computer and all that. However as the rules reflect the range 0-12, where the knowledge gap between nearby numbers is huge, and many kids not having that computing experience, most of those in that age range will not be capable of doing more advanced computer tasks. Heck, a quarter of these people aren't even capable of climbing a large staircase.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 11/14/2019 6:03 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11489
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
NES TAS of 2011
So, if they can't enjoy TASes, it makes little sense to target them with our youtube content.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/14/2019 6:03 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
I believe that the best option is to choose "I want to review this setting for every video", and then on each published video set the setting according to the game's own official age rating. I think that would make the most sense.
The setting itself has little to do with the game's rating. A video may not include the objectionable parts of a game. The video itself may make parts of a fine game objectionable by the text entered into it, stuff drawn, or commentary added. Even if the video is technically suitable for children, you don't necessarily want to set your target market of a video to 0-12, thereby downgrading it appearing for older audience, marketing opportunities, or the ability to leave comments.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 11/14/2019 8:26 PM
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Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
1) Google has advertisers of every warp and weft, and heretofore you could get inappropriate matches of advertisements and content. The last few video hijack scares, particularly the Momo thing, were because the advertisements were mismatched to the videos themselves. The writeup that Google asked us all to read indicated that Kid-Friendly videos will draw from a dedicated Kid-Friendly advertisers pool in order to reduce the chances of a repeat of the Momo thing. (There are other issues with how YouTube handles ads that will need to be solved as part of this, but Video Hijack Scares are the main impetus here). 2) YouTube has a dedicated "YouTube Kids" subdomain which requires some degree of segregation between Kid-Friendly channels and Not-Kid-Friendly ones. The most direct way to do this is to force content providers to set this at some level, and I think it's reasonable to state that most content providers will be able to make this decision at the channel level. Whether or not it's reasonable is outside the scope of this post. All I am stating is what I perceive to be the reasoning behind the action.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Posted: 11/14/2019 9:05 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Pokota wrote:
All I am stating is what I perceive to be the reasoning behind the action.
Google already stated the reasoning behind the action is because the FTC sued them over COPPA violations. This means protection, and this means privacy, for children. Protection so that kids don't go searching through videos and end up seeing a storyteller in an orange jumpsuit getting their head sawed off by a bearded man yelling in a foreign language. Privacy so that kids cannot post their address into comments, and discuss meet-ups to go sleep on someone else's couch, or in their padded cage. This also means that Google themselves cannot deeply mine the users, so while they may have a great ad-pool, such as ads for the upcoming Disney movie, they cannot use targeted ads with kids. Unless you're specifically making movies for the young kids who are your primary audience, you do not want your videos set that way. The restrictions that come with it will probably not be in accordance to your liking.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 11/14/2019 11:59 PM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
A stupid thought - will YouTube let channel owners set their videos to 18+ only if the videos are (incorrectly) pinged as being child material? That will allow the comments section to stay open, but require the viewer to have a YouTube account, and also be over the age of 18, when viewing. Incidentally, a toggle to force viewers to be over 13 would be nice.
Posted: 11/15/2019 12:02 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Why not just set your channel to not for children? Setting videos to 18+ means random people can no longer see your video or anyone who isn't logged in. Your video cannot be viewed on default Android. It cannot be viewed in schools or libraries. On top of all that, you'll be scaring viewers away.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 11/15/2019 7:53 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
I believe that the best option is to choose "I want to review this setting for every video", and then on each published video set the setting according to the game's own official age rating. I think that would make the most sense.
The setting itself has little to do with the game's rating.
I don't understand this answer. All I'm saying is that if the game being speedrun has an age rating making it suitable for all ages, mark the video as suitable for all ages, else mark it as not suitable. I don't really understand what's the problem here.
A video may not include the objectionable parts of a game. The video itself may make parts of a fine game objectionable by the text entered into it, stuff drawn, or commentary added.
So? If a published video has any additional material added to it that might not be suitable, just mark it as not suitable. I don't see the problem. I find your objection incomprehensible.
Posted: 11/15/2019 10:52 AM
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Noxxa
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
I believe that the best option is to choose "I want to review this setting for every video", and then on each published video set the setting according to the game's own official age rating. I think that would make the most sense.
The setting itself has little to do with the game's rating.
I don't understand this answer. All I'm saying is that if the game being speedrun has an age rating making it suitable for all ages, mark the video as suitable for all ages, else mark it as not suitable. I don't really understand what's the problem here.
A video may not include the objectionable parts of a game. The video itself may make parts of a fine game objectionable by the text entered into it, stuff drawn, or commentary added.
So? If a published video has any additional material added to it that might not be suitable, just mark it as not suitable. I don't see the problem. I find your objection incomprehensible.
It does not ask to mark the videos as "suitable for all ages" or not. It specifically asks whether the target audience for the videos is young children (ages 0-12). I don't think there's a single movie we have published that actually is geared towards children, rather than a general audience. It doesn't really matter if the game itself is age-suitable or not - very few children are going to understand anything of a technical glitch demonstration that beats Super Mario World in less than a minute, for instance. They are not its primary target audience. And as has already been said in previous posts - even if a movie technically/legally can be chosen to be set that way, that does not necessarily make it beneficial to do so. It would unnecessarily restrict things such as user comments, or searchability for mature viewers.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 11/15/2019 11:26 AM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
My concern is whether Google/YouTube will think the videos are for children, not whether TASVideos considers the video for children. And for those of us with an incredibly size backlog of videos that're a nightmare to update, it's not nice having the behemoth breathing down the back of our necks. Part of why I opened this thread was to see whether this problem had been discussed amongst TASVideos Publishers, and whether they've discussed it with the broader videogaming community. And also to ask about ways to be able to quickly tag videos as being for children or not - ie. if anyone has figured out alternative methods for tagging the videos, rather than spending about a minute per video - which is an incredible amount of labour for bigger channels. It would be easiest to just set the entire channel as being for children, but there's good reasons to not apply that unilaterally for bigger channels. I didn't open this thread to be passive aggressive in any way, but out of sincere concern for the speedrun community as a whole - not just TASVideos. I hope this situation all amounts to nothing in the end. But Google's messaging on these things is abysmal as usual.
Posted: 11/15/2019 5:27 PM
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JosJuice
She/They
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Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 193
Location: Sweden
Flygon wrote:
And also to ask about ways to be able to quickly tag videos as being for children or not - ie. if anyone has figured out alternative methods for tagging the videos, rather than spending about a minute per video - which is an incredible amount of labour for bigger channels.
You can mass tag videos by going to YouTube Studio > Videos, selecting videos, and picking Edit > Audience. The tagging operation can take a while to complete (or at least it did when I used it the day YouTube sent me an email about it), but you can leave it unattended (and even close the page) once you have started the operation.