Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11477
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Niamek wrote:
Why no just tkeep small only? Same with all the others movies like walkathon.
The details are already in the movie descriptions. Should be enough.
Why revise? Why fix? Why contribute? Why care? Same with everything one would bother doing. Reality is already better than shit. Should be enough.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So the extra exits are forbidden because of those 2 forbidden techniques? We don't want to list the rules in the labels, only critical differences and unique goals. If there's a cherry-picked set of tricks that are forbidden to make it more entertaining, we could also list them in the movie description (if we haven't already). I'd need to know if those extra exits are sacrificed for speed or for entertainment.
They're not techniques, Yoshi is like a persistent power up that persists between levels, but does not require Mario to be big in order to use (unlike say Cape or Fire Flower). Additionally the Switch Palaces are levels that when completed, permanently place additional blocks in various levels that can be used as platforms to make certain levels easier. The Switch Palaces count towards the amount of exits, so by banning their usage, you cannot get their exits. The idea behind the movie is to have Mario and the levels be in a minimalist state, but reach as many exits as possible.
EDIT: Note that temporary power ups like the starman ARE allowed however.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
Some people are suggesting "maximum exits'', that's not a good label though, as 4 more exits are obviously possible (the switch palaces) and they are forbidden in this category.
So then you're saying it should be "small only, no switch palaces, max exits" or perhaps "no powerups, no switch palaces, max exits".
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
feos wrote:
So the extra exits are forbidden because of those 2 forbidden techniques? We don't want to list the rules in the labels, only critical differences and unique goals. If there's a cherry-picked set of tricks that are forbidden to make it more entertaining, we could also list them in the movie description (if we haven't already). I'd need to know if those extra exits are sacrificed for speed or for entertainment.
The extra exits are forbidden for entertainment. In SMW, after you clear each switch palace some blocks appear to help Mario in some levels. It is more interesting to beat these levels without those blocks.
Nach wrote:
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
So then you're saying it should be "small only, no switch palaces, max exits" or perhaps "no powerups, no switch palaces, max exits".
I don't think there is a good label that communicates Mario is always small, Yoshi is forbidden, switch palaces are forbidden and goal is maximum exits. It's already pretty obvious by the length of the TAS that it's not a sort of small only any%. And since every goal is listed in the movie description, it might be better to leave the branch name as it is.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
I don't think there is a good label that communicates Mario is always small, Yoshi is forbidden, switch palaces are forbidden and goal is maximum exits.
If there is no good label that communicates the goals of the run, then we should start considering it too arbitrary and reject the run.
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
And since every goal is listed in the movie description, it might be better to leave the branch name as it is.
Descriptions don't help you when you see two runs side by side with the exact same label but are supposed to somehow be different.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I don't think there is a good label that communicates Mario is always small, Yoshi is forbidden, switch palaces are forbidden and goal is maximum exits. It's already pretty obvious by the length of the TAS that it's not a sort of small only any%. And since every goal is listed in the movie description, it might be better to leave the branch name as it is.
I don't agree with that. I know personally I got a little confused looking at the name of this TAS and then at the length. I read the description and was less confused but it's still not an ideal scenario.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11477
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I have one last question. Would that run be shorter if it used more exits?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
I have one last question. Would that run be shorter if it used more exits?
Some levels would get easier due to some additional blocks you can stand on becoming available. Perhaps in a few places it may make it more straight forward to get higher.
However the time it takes to complete the switch palaces definitely outweighs any meager time savers they provide.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
When a run uses a combination of internal and external goals, we need to find out which of them it prioritizes, and which of them it only happens to have as a result of the primary goal.
If it explicitly and independently prioritizes more than one, and each of them is chosen for the sake of unique entertaining content, each needs to go into the label.
If it aims for fastest speed for the primary goal, and doesn't particularly care which other goals happen to be encountered, such extra goals don't need to be mentioned in the label.
The primary, external, goal in that run is "no powerups", the secondary, internal, goal is "maximum exits". It could get more exits if it didn't ban all permanent powerups (including "growing up"). This boils us down to:
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "no powerups, maximum exits" in 1:18:23.22 by PangaeaPanga
And saying in the description that the run bans permanent powerups that I listed above.
Opinions? Staff and other members agreed that this label is good (at least as good as "small only", but most of us think that it's better: more accurate and still not overblown).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
From what I read before, star powerup wasn't banned before, but would be under "no powerups"?
No (permanent) powerups. Dunno if permanent should be in the branch label or not. I think it would be fine without and just clarify in the description.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Does the game even have warps?
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Also, there are many Super Mario World movies, including hacks, that lack an appropriate label, but we also have to decide if going for the "warps"-"warpless" naming or "low exits"-"max exits" naming
When we aim for fastest speed while avoiding major skip glitches, we don't care how many exits we end up using, so exit count is irrelevant here. So "warps" SMW (and hacks) should remain "warps". But when the goal is getting all exits, we should use "all exits". And when all can't be used, yet we want maximum, we should use "maximum exits", like in the fixed "small only" branch.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
All walkathons need to mention their warp usage, as per recent guidelines addition. Even though warped walkathon can be considered speed-focused, it has an entertainment-focused counterpart now, warpless walkathon. To prevent confusion we label both by their warp usage.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11477
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
[802] SNES Biker Mice from Mars "final round" by Baxter in 05:12.62
Uses a password to skip to the hardest track in the game with full equipment, only beats one track, looks super entertaining, was accepted as a demonstration, doesn't aim to be a speed record or legit any%.
I really don't know how to call this, unless we start using "demonstration" in the branches.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
final track all equipment?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Password
It's set up to basically win the game with ideal equipment at the last "world." There are no restrictions, and nothing special other than a password is used, and no restrictions on the password itself is given, aside from the fact it was something obtained normally.
I don't see any particular reason to name the branch anything but "password" myself. It's a password to the last world, much like how we don't specify "fastest warps path" in our Super Mario Bros. TASes. It's a password that gets the best relevant equipment, not something we'd care to mention that we get Erdrick's Armor and Erdrick's Sword in a Dragon Warrior TAS.
That's my reasoning, anyway. If it makes sense, then good. If not, you'll have your reasons why it isn't.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11477
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
"Password" still doesn't tell anything about what to expect. And I think password is just a way to showcase this highly impressive, but still very odd goal.
I don't like "final track, all equipment", but it tells everything one should know about the run to be able to decide if they want to watch it.
It's also interesting that we have "playaround", which showcases non-fastest-completion entertaining gameplay, but for password-based speed-oriented entertaining gameplay we don't have any common name.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
I don't like "final track, all equipment", but it tells everything one should know about the run to be able to decide if they want to watch it.
I don't like it either. I only suggest it as a starting point which is informative and accurate, and hopefully causes someone to have a better more refined idea.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
* The DSS sumoning glitch is not a warp. It is just a high-speed movement that ignores any obstruct in the path. You can tell this with frame-advance, memory watch and/or just the exploration status (colorization) of the in-game map.
* Neither are the OoB room-transitions using the DSS sumoning warp glitches. These normal room exits are always working just as expected, in-bound (see below). It's the DSS sumoning glitch that catapults the character out of bound.
* There are indeed glitched warping spots in this game but they are all located in a particaular room in the Arena Area, and this run has nothing to do with them.
Yeah, you can safely assume that I am an expert of this game. ;-)
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Reading over that Biker Mice from Mars submission, not all equipment is gotten by password. In fact, it is briefly visible between tracks that two of the four stats are maxed out, the other two are still at their defaults. Including "all equipment" would be inaccurate.
It's also not "default equipment" either. The TAS just gets whatever it needs from the password, and leaves the rest alone.
I still say "password". Any particular reason why I would think "warps" means I aim to take the maximum number of warps possible in a run? I agree that "password" has a minimum of description, but I ask to be convinced that "warps" is enough to specify fastest path using warps but "password" isn't enough to specify fastest path using password.
If it's a matter of expectation, then I may well have missed the point in my previous paragraph.
