Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
andypanther wrote:
Reposting a question from the "Gotta catch 'em all" submission of Pokémon Blue: If someone submitted an Ocarina of Time 100% under the alternative ruleset, would it be considered legit?
Please inform us why it wouldn't be considered legit.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
In the NSR variation, you don't have to get the items as intended, you can use any method you want, as long as you have them in your inventory at the end. That means you can dupe items until you get to the amount intended as the maximum (as done with heart pieces and gold skulltules), or you use memory corruption to write items into your inventory.
We all know that it's unlikely for an OoT run to end up in the vault, but I'm just curious if an NSR 100% would be vaultable.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Once you dupe these items on the menu, can you still collect the ones intended in the game and exceed the amount intended as maximum?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Once you dupe these items on the menu, can you still collect the ones intended in the game and exceed the amount intended as maximum?
If you were to collect the intended heart pieces after duping yourself to 20 hearts, the game would add additional hearts onto the screen until it would look very glitchy. As for gold skulltulas, you can also keep collecting them as intended, I think the counter will even increase past 100 (I might be wrong about that). Other things like quest items or songs are similar, glitching them into your inventory will not remove them from their intended "source" to collect.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
If the main goal is to actually collect them wherever they are, even if it means warping to them, and you did so, then you completed your objective. If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Even the current 100% doesn't collect everything (it skips some upgrades and jump straight to the last one). Not to mention it doesn't collect Maps and Compasses and Boss keys. (So when a 100% gets submitted here, I expect an endless debate concerning that)
As to that alternative 100% definition.
If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
It still does collect them. It just clones 1 skulltula or Heart pieces to obscene amount and collect all of them. But the original ones (that are slower to get than cloning) are still available to collect.
Andypanther, I would think that both runs can be published, but it wouldn't share the same category and oe of them would get the demonstration tag. We could probably do a parallel with the pokemon runs: gotta catch em all and coop diploma are both 100%, but they both do it differently and are both entertaining..
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Niamek wrote:
It still does collect them.
But the original ones (that are slower to get than cloning) are still available to collect.
Please, don't let me prevent you from contradicting yourself.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Well, it is contradictory. It depends on how you see it.
I too don't consider it 100% because it clones and doesn't get the original token or Heart piece. But that's the point of that "100% NSR" category. With that only, I'm not seeing this obsoleting a regular 100% like it's seperated in the oot community.
The 100% NSR definition is "do whatever you need to see a complete pause menu". This include cloning a skulltula token and Heart piece and doing some shenagians.
Since all heart pieces are the same, you could say you collect it by collecting a different heart piece.
I just wanted to point out that it still collects something. It just doesn't collect the ones intended by the devs because a cloned piece or token was faster.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Don't expect us to label something "100%..." if we have some users who will point out reasonable things are missing.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I am not.
I am expecting a big rant from the oot speedrunning community if the 100% is redefined to "all equipment, all skulltula tokens, all medaillon, all stones and all heart pieces". :)
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I've said a number of times, we don't care what is done in other communities. We have our own rules and our own users with their own mindsets. That may line up with what is done elsewhere, it may not.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
If the main goal is to actually collect them wherever they are, even if it means warping to them, and you did so, then you completed your objective. If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
Errr... I could argue with that (NES Megaman TAS completing the game without flagged as completed).
Fortranm wrote:
Would it be acceptable to die in a game with password system and then input the acquired password for death warp?
edit: I'm not a judge.
AFAIK nope. I've asked it during NES Metroid. edit2: Post here
Don't know the underlying rule though but something like "passwords only used to unlock harder difficulties".
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Nach wrote:
If the main goal is to actually collect them wherever they are, even if it means warping to them, and you did so, then you completed your objective. If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
Errr... I could argue with that (NES Megaman TAS completing the game without flagged as completed).
I'd say it's the opposite case. Those flags only get set after you beat it the normal way. The game has ended in any case, we don't depend on full game state being identical to normal completion. We just require that the game after glitched ending acts like after normal one.
Full completions TAS rules are different, see my post in the initial thread:
Post #468560
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
AFAIK nope. I've asked it during NES Metroid. edit2: Post here
Don't know the underlying rule though but something like "passwords only used to unlock harder difficulties".
What you seem to be wanting to do with that post is to reset after beating Kraid but before you can Up+A warp, and resume the game with a password the game hasn't actually given you yet. Do I have that right?
I'm not a judge, so I'll use a question to share what I think about the password thing.
If the game displays said password during the run, would resetting afterwards and then entering it be considered like something close to a "save and quit" strategy?
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
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Fortranm wrote:
Would it be acceptable to die in a game with password system and then input the acquired password for death warp?
I've discussed with a few other judges about this, and ultimately, our conclusion is that no, this would not be accepted. The rationale for this is: when you quit a game and enter a password, you are not resuming from a previous game save, but instead are starting a new game with a custom starting state. Anything that happened prior to the password is effectively irrelevant to the progression of the movie, other than the concept of having "seen" or "acquired" the password.
Requiring a TASer to "see" or "acquire" a password before allowing it comes with a lot of its own issues. How do you determine when a password is "seen"? Must it be visible on screen, or be somewhere in memory? If it must be on screen, how do you determine when it is sufficiently visible on screen when e.g. the password screen fades in from black? What if in-game graphics are glitched or parts of the password are (yet) obscured? In the end, there is not really a sane and consistent way to define visibility of a password. It also contradicts many other concepts of TASing, like the idea that the user is prescient and can predict future events before seeing them, or could just know or engineer the password before seeing it.
And obviously, without a requirement to "see" or "acquire" it, it would just be plain password usage, which most definitely is against the rules.
Grincevent wrote:
I'm not a judge, so I'll use a question to share what I think about the password thing.
If the game displays said password during the run, would resetting afterwards and then entering it be considered like something close to a "save and quit" strategy?
No - resetting and using a password are not equivalent to saving and quitting. When you restart a game after saving, the game is not in the same state as it was at the start. You can progress from where you left off because the game has retained that information. However, when you restart a game to use a password, the game is still in the same state as it was when it was first started up. The only difference now is that the player "knows" a password to skip the game to some state where he reset the game. Functionally, anything prior to using the password did not even need to be done at all. See also my reply to Fortranm.
andypanther wrote:
Reposting a question from the "Gotta catch 'em all" submission of Pokémon Blue: If someone submitted an Ocarina of Time 100% under the alternative ruleset, would it be considered legit?
Now that said "Gotta catch 'em all" submission has been judged and the Vault rules on full completion have been clarified, I can answer this. The Vault rules on full completion state that items must be collected through in-game methods (so memory corrupting to get items is not counted for full completion), and completing a set of items/flags must be done by collecting each individual component of the set (so e.g. duping Gold Skulltulas is not counted for full completion).
The rules you link to are vague enough that a movie following it is not necessarily illegitimate, but it does implicitly allow methods of obtaining full completion that would not be considered legitimate in the Vault ruleset on full completion.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Nach wrote:
If the main goal is to actually collect them wherever they are, even if it means warping to them, and you did so, then you completed your objective. If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
Errr... I could argue with that (NES Megaman TAS completing the game without flagged as completed).
(Regarding this movie): the game is handled as completed, just certain subsets (stages) of it are not. But this is not relevant to the present argument, which is defining full completion.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Among the password games, there is one example that restart back to a password screen, Deadly Towers.
When you start the game, you go through the password screen, whether you want to start a new game or not. When you die, you are kicked back into the title screen, and pressing start takes you back to the password screen with a new password already put in for you.
However, while the player does go back to a functioning password screen after death, the game inserts the password of its state for you with zero input from the player. All the TASer has to do is confirm the password after restarting. Aside from the password, which could have been attained sooner by inputting it there and then as opposed to making progress then dying a humiliating death, there are no other practical differences.
In this particular case, the TASer does not need to somehow demonstrate acquired knowledge of the password. So, ignoring all the controls of the password screen other than "confirm password" is a perfectly acceptable means of restarting the game from a "save file" of sorts, I take it? This is the closest possible case I can recall where a "password save" is used in an active password screen.
So, I would suggest that Deadly Towers is much closer to this line than a lot of other games. If judged by today's Vault standards, is this Deadly Towers TAS on the side of acceptance or rejection of this line?
Joined: 8/14/2009
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Among the password games, there is one example that restart back to a password screen, Deadly Towers.
When you start the game, you go through the password screen, whether you want to start a new game or not. When you die, you are kicked back into the title screen, and pressing start takes you back to the password screen with a new password already put in for you.
However, while the player does go back to a functioning password screen after death, the game inserts the password of its state for you with zero input from the player. All the TASer has to do is confirm the password after restarting. Aside from the password, which could have been attained sooner by inputting it there and then as opposed to making progress then dying a humiliating death, there are no other practical differences.
In this particular case, the TASer does not need to somehow demonstrate acquired knowledge of the password. So, ignoring all the controls of the password screen other than "confirm password" is a perfectly acceptable means of restarting the game from a "save file" of sorts, I take it? This is the closest possible case I can recall where a "password save" is used in an active password screen.
So, I would suggest that Deadly Towers is much closer to this line than a lot of other games. If judged by today's Vault standards, is this Deadly Towers TAS on the side of acceptance or rejection of this line?
Since the user never has to enter anything for the password, I don't count it as entering a password. So, I would consider this legitimate for the Vault.
Another way to look at this: when the game is reset after death, it is not in the same state as on startup: it is on startup state, but with your current progress saved (in the form of the password), and by pressing continue (without any other changes) you just load up that saved progress. In that sense, it is much like loading a savefile - it's just in the format of a password. You are technically given tools to edit your "save file", but making any such edits would count as using cheats, much like regular password entering.
Kurabupengin wrote:
Based on my reading of the speedrun.com topic and guide, this looks like a debug code, not a glitch, considering its specific requirement of entering one password (which happens to match up with a Japanese name), and its specific effect being the ability to skip stages just by pressing start and select.
Even if this weren't to be a debug code and is a glitch, it still looks like an enhancement specifically granted by entering the password, which is not accepted (see Mega Man X3)
And finally, even if this were a glitch caused by effects unrelated to the password routine, it would be acceptable only as a demonstration (see Mega Man X), and I doubt a ten-second long skipfest would be acceptable as a demonstration.
So in short, no, this would not be accepted.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Among the password games, there is one example that restart back to a password screen, Deadly Towers.
When you start the game, you go through the password screen, whether you want to start a new game or not. When you die, you are kicked back into the title screen, and pressing start takes you back to the password screen with a new password already put in for you.
However, while the player does go back to a functioning password screen after death, the game inserts the password of its state for you with zero input from the player. All the TASer has to do is confirm the password after restarting. Aside from the password, which could have been attained sooner by inputting it there and then as opposed to making progress then dying a humiliating death, there are no other practical differences.
In this particular case, the TASer does not need to somehow demonstrate acquired knowledge of the password. So, ignoring all the controls of the password screen other than "confirm password" is a perfectly acceptable means of restarting the game from a "save file" of sorts, I take it? This is the closest possible case I can recall where a "password save" is used in an active password screen.
So, I would suggest that Deadly Towers is much closer to this line than a lot of other games. If judged by today's Vault standards, is this Deadly Towers TAS on the side of acceptance or rejection of this line?
Mothrayas wrote:
Since the user never has to enter anything for the password, I don't count it as entering a password. So, I would consider this legitimate for the Vault.
Thank you for posting, FatRatKnight. I was also curious about this, as it seemed in line with comparable TASVideos standards. I agree with Mothrayas. A password system which retains the game state in memory upon "reset" is distinct from a password system which does not. The password stored in memory is analogous to a save file or other record of progress, and should be acceptable for use in a TAS.
If a progress counter is filled by collecting a set of items or fulfilling a set of flags, all individual components of this set must be collected or fulfilled. Collecting or fulfilling the same component multiple times to inflate the progress counter is not counted towards full completion.
You can clip into the wall here. While it may look useless, turns out if you were to grab 10 picks over here, then use this trick to retrigger the food fight, not only will it count as obtaining 100% on the next guitar, but also resets all of the red picks you've obtained. So, given how incredibly out of way some of the later stages are for 100%, this may actually save time. :)
Edit2: Seems to save ~3,000 frames over doing it normally. :)
Movie of the entire thing for what I mean: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32505686992981034
So is this ok or not?
Edit: Just to note: I don't think it's memory corruption, nor ACE. The full run would be like an hour long, and this saves like 1 minute, due to the fact the repeated minigame takes a while, so only the very last stage actually benefits. All other completionist requirements are done "legit" since it is faster (the items are not far away, so less backtrack)
If a progress counter is filled by collecting a set of items or fulfilling a set of flags, all individual components of this set must be collected or fulfilled. Collecting or fulfilling the same component multiple times to inflate the progress counter is not counted towards full completion.
You can clip into the wall here. While it may look useless, turns out if you were to grab 10 picks over here, then use this trick to retrigger the food fight, not only will it count as obtaining 100% on the next guitar, but also resets all of the red picks you've obtained. So, given how incredibly out of way some of the later stages are for 100%, this may actually save time. :)
Edit2: Seems to save ~3,000 frames over doing it normally. :)
Movie of the entire thing for what I mean: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32505686992981034
So is this ok or not?
Edit: Just to note: I don't think it's memory corruption, nor ACE. The full run would be like an hour long, and this saves like 1 minute, due to the fact the repeated minigame takes a while, so only the very last stage actually benefits. All other completionist requirements are done "legit" since it is faster (the items are not far away, so less backtrack)
It sounds like this does violate the quoted rule. If you can skip visiting certain stages for 100% because you instead get the percentage points from repeatedly duplicating/collecting the same subset of items, it is in violation of this rule. You are supposed to fully complete the game from getting each individual pickup that counts towards the percentage counter.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
It doesn't skip any stages; just that the items are scattered all over the place in the final stage, so you have to walk all over the stage just to grab them all.
I think the only other question I would like to ask is about 100% is about is it allowed for glitches that allow obtaining/beating things not as intended. The examples I can think of now is Paper Mario (obtaining stars/badges/etc out of order, but still obtaining them), and Wario Land 2 (some stage exit doors are OoB, but at the same time, you cannot "beat" other stages outside the ones you're in; see any%). It doesn't corrupt memory I think; just that for some rooms, the stage exit is out of bounds, so entering them counts as beating that stage.
Edit: Oh, and there's also that OoB trick used in Monster House GBA that allows obtaining items out of order, including beating things out of order, but I literally have no idea even how to get 100% there, so there's that.
You can clip into the wall here. While it may look useless, turns out if you were to grab 10 picks over here, then use this trick to retrigger the food fight, not only will it count as obtaining 100% on the next guitar, but also resets all of the red picks you've obtained. So, given how incredibly out of way some of the later stages are for 100%, this may actually save time. :) Edit2: Seems to save ~3,000 frames over doing it normally. :)
