Post by EEssentia

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:05 PM

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (826)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

TASeditor wrote:

[3331] NES The Battle of Olympus by Arc & nesrocks in 09:55.37: A bit like Zelda II, but doesn't break exits.

Excellent suggestion. But in case that one isn't picked, I would follow a simple formula: 1. A game from a series that everyone knows and loves: Mario, Zelda, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, or Sonic. 2. A movie that hasn't been published yet; something that would debut at the event. 3. A movie that is not just fast/perfect but shows something unexpected. SMB3 beaten in 2 seconds is a good example.

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:07 PM

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Spikestuff

They/Them

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Arc wrote:

SMB3 beaten in 2 seconds is a good example.

Super Mario Bros. 3 beaten in 2 seconds is a TERRIBLE example.

dwangoAC wrote:

The AGDQ 2018 games submission committee has asked us to submit TAS content. They have specifically asked us to focus on highly entertaining (and reasonably short or otherwise varied) content, and they have specifically asked us to avoid focusing on technical shenanigans for this event. Console verification is preferred where possible but not required meaning running TAS's in an emulator is acceptable for this event (although playing back videos is not acceptable). Good, practiced commentary is a must and having the authors of the run present is considered a bonus.

WebNations/Sabih wrote:

+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.

Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:29 PM

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014

Spikestuff wrote:

Arc wrote:
SMB3 beaten in 2 seconds is a good example.
Super Mario Bros. 3 beaten in 2 seconds is a TERRIBLE example.
dwangoAC wrote:
The AGDQ 2018 games submission committee has asked us to submit TAS content. They have specifically asked us to focus on highly entertaining (and reasonably short or otherwise varied) content, and they have specifically asked us to avoid focusing on technical shenanigans for this event. Console verification is preferred where possible but not required meaning running TAS's in an emulator is acceptable for this event (although playing back videos is not acceptable). Good, practiced commentary is a must and having the authors of the run present is considered a bonus.

Just to provide some flavor around this, they're specifically asking us to not focus on doing the things that are hard simply because they are hard. Pokemon Red, streaming live chat? Technically challenging. The crazy that was the main body of AGDQ 2017? Not what they want us to focus on. Another ACE might be old and tired at this point unless it's done in an interesting way or there's a particularly compelling (and not too technically difficult) payload. The point is that they would much rather we focused on entertainment and polish than get lost in "but we think we can pull off showing X this year". Thanks for all of the good suggestions. I'd like to throw a couple of my own half-formed thoughts out there: [2547] PSX Castlevania: Symphony of the Night "game end glitch" by ForgoneMoose & sockfolder in 09:47.20 [2603] PSX Spyro 2: Ripto's Rage! by lapogne36 & Crash41596 in 07:32.47 [3370] DS Super Mario 64 DS by Sharkey91, Really_Tall & ALAKTORN in 08:12.93 [1863] DS New Super Mario Bros. "warps" by adelikat, TRT, mindnomad & Y05H1 in 21:08.08 [2688] DS Metroid Prime Pinball by Noxxa in 03:59.63 [3205] N64 F-Zero X "Jack Cup, Time Trial" by jagg2zero in 07:09.37 [2691] N64 Magical Tetris Challenge "maximum score" by PoochyEXE in 01:57.38 I'm not going to pick movies as a dictator, I want us to narrow down and work through a list of half a dozen runs so we have an idea of what to submit come September 2nd. Keep the conversation going and thanks for the involvement!

I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:35 PM

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link_7777

Experienced player (876)

Joined: 11/15/2010
Posts: 267

I agree with the Battletoads suggestion for sure. I also think we should submit a TAS Trick review again. Admittedly the way we describe it, and the plan for how it would work may need to be revamped.

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:35 PM

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Fog

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (641)

Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 459

Fog wrote:

I'm totally not a sellout here, but [3140] Wii Gummy Bears MiniGolf by Fog in 12:27.13

Okay, actually sellout suggestions: [3087] GC Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 "All Goals and Golds" by Fog in 08:37.63 [2881] GC Tony Hawk's Underground 2 by Fog in 08:26.17 [3270] GC Ed, Edd n Eddy: The Mis-Edventures by Fog in 16:34.02

Posted: 8/22/2017 8:42 PM

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014

EEssentia wrote:

I always find SM64 to be entertaining and Super Metroid, especially the Reverse Boss Order one, although it may be a bit long. Still, I find that it just feels wrong to take an off-the-shelf run and play it back at GDQ. What's different from doing it at GDQ than simply watching the run at youtube? Each runner carefully practices their runs before the event and has to pull it off realtime. But a TAS has none of that at least not premade. So it feels wrong to pick an off-the-shelf one. It feels more "right" to make a TAS explicitly made for GDQ. The point of TASes, I think, is not just completing the game as fast as possible, but to pull off stunts to gives off "awesomeness" to the public, especially under a GDQ setting. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

And those are all very valid thoughts indeed! The main answer is commentary, i.e. taking a run that already exists and showing it off with properly practiced commentary, well polished and tailored for the viewers of a GDQ. Think of it as the value-add. Keep in mind that while many of us here on the site know what the gems are most GDQ viewers probably don't and it's up to us to dig them up and show them how they sparkle in the spotlight. I mentioned this in IRC but I think the best choice is to get a diverse grouping of different game types, say one racing game, one platformer, one 3D game, etc. I'd love to have an ACE if it makes sense to cap off the block but again I don't want to do that if it isn't highly entertaining in and of itself. I'd really appreciate it if someone can tell me (privately or in this thread) about a run they are working on that would be a good fit for the marathon as it'd be awesome to unveil something new that hasn't been seen before. This is all good stuff!

I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 8/22/2017 11:15 PM

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Grincevent

Active player (309)

Joined: 8/21/2012
Posts: 429
Location: France

In the list of well known games, there is a recent TAS that managed to beat the old one that was considered extremely solid: [3492] NES Castlevania by Challenger in 11:19.03 ...and the minimalist pacifist run from that guy, I don't remember the name, but it was suggested once in the past and rejected by the GDQ staff. But maybe their standards have changed for acceptance this time.

Posted: 8/23/2017 12:30 AM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (608)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

I'm willing to provide commentary. It would help to use runs that have detailed submission comments to ensure we can review and give the TAS justice. I also think it would be fun to do something like the Choco Mountain Gauntlet (but for another game). So, something where a bot sets up a difficult to complete scenario without total control.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 8/23/2017 12:56 AM

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014

Weatherton wrote:

I'm willing to provide commentary. It would help to use runs that have detailed submission comments to ensure we can review and give the TAS justice. I also think it would be fun to do something like the Choco Mountain Gauntlet (but for another game). So, something where a bot sets up a difficult to complete scenario without total control.

You have less than two weeks to identify a game in which to do so. I do like the idea and hope you can find a game. We will probably have to set up a poll or two to decide what the majority of people think will work. I like a lot of the suggestions but we're going to need to narrow them down a bit first.

I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 8/23/2017 3:24 AM

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Chef_Stef

Editor, Active player (476)

Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States

Arc wrote:

2. A movie that hasn't been published yet; something that would debut at the event.

This is a really interesting idea. What if the TASBlock was entirely new TASes that haven't been shown anywhere yet? People could volunteer runs that are due to be finished within, say, the next two months, elect to delay submission to TASVideos, and show them for the first time at GDQ instead. We get the surprise factor from previous GDQs but with something much more reasonable and representative of typical TASVideos content. If we don't go for that, I'll propose showing the recent Smash Bros Break the Targets / Board the Platforms run. It's in the same vein as Monkey Ball where it showcases the latest and greatest tricks in one place, taken to the next level with TAS tools.

Posted: 8/23/2017 7:09 AM

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Warp

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Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

dwangoAC wrote:

Another ACE might be old and tired at this point unless it's done in an interesting way or there's a particularly compelling (and not too technically difficult) payload.

I would agree that perhaps we should avoid ACEs. The marathon is, after all, about beating games as fast as possible, not about running your own code. It's a speedrunning marathon, not a demo compo. ACEs have been demonstrated several times already, there's no need to do the same again. Let's keep it simple and traditional: TASbot beats a game superhumanly fast (preferably on the actual console). No shenanigans, just superhuman speedrunning. (Although, of course, glitches are ok at least in some of the runs. After all, glitches are ok in regular speedrunning as well, so there's no problem there.)

Posted: 8/23/2017 7:12 AM

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Warp

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Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
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Chef Stef wrote:

What if the TASBlock was entirely new TASes that haven't been shown anywhere yet? People could volunteer runs that are due to be finished within, say, the next two months, elect to delay submission to TASVideos, and show them for the first time at GDQ instead. We get the surprise factor from previous GDQs but with something much more reasonable and representative of typical TASVideos content.

I think it's unreasonable to expect the high standards of entertainment for runs that have been submitted within a couple of months prior to the marathon. At the very least there should be a list of backup TASes to fill in the list. (Also, I think another problem is that AFAIK the organizer need to know in advance what runs will be shown, with a detailed description. Thus they need to be prepared well in advance.)

Posted: 8/23/2017 8:07 AM

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andypanther

Any

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Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Chef Stef wrote:

Arc wrote:
2. A movie that hasn't been published yet; something that would debut at the event.
This is a really interesting idea. What if the TASBlock was entirely new TASes that haven't been shown anywhere yet? People could volunteer runs that are due to be finished within, say, the next two months, elect to delay submission to TASVideos, and show them for the first time at GDQ instead. We get the surprise factor from previous GDQs but with something much more reasonable and representative of typical TASVideos content.

Please don't. It would suck for us to have the marathons dictate when we can see a new TAS.

Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.

Posted: 8/23/2017 11:17 AM

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TASeditor

Editor, Skilled player (1536)

Joined: 7/9/2010
Posts: 1319

Keep in mind the expected viewer count for TASBlock is 100k, that is much higher than the view count for some of the suggested TASes, even if they're some years old. Which means some runs will be new for several viewers watching. I generally dislike the idea of making a TAS specifically for AGDQ, we would would need in advance if the game would produce an entertaining and short run, and wheter it can be finished in a reasonable time span.

Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch

Posted: 8/23/2017 11:25 AM

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EEssentia

Joined: 4/13/2009
Posts: 431

Unfortunately, real speed runners also have to compete for a time in the marathon, and that means practicing their games. But just because they practice the games doesn't mean they make it into the marathon. To think that just because this is TASVideos, we should just be able to get an exception to that rule, I think, is unfair. To some extent, producing a TAS is a lot different from practicing a run, so there must be a fine line somewhere. But in general, I still find that it is less entertaining and much less fair to everyone else if TASVideos don't put effort into trying to bring their own, customized, TASes to GDQ. I think we should also keep in mind that GDQ runs are different from normal runs. They're much safer than normal strategies and runners specifically practice to do these runs for GDQ, as opposed to just normal speedruns which sacrifice safety for speed. @andy: Nothing is preventing people from creating regular TASes that can be published on TASVideos. Why would making a TAS meant for viewing on GDQ be such a bad thing? It is only one TAS among all others, and it has been done on every event before this with ACE, etc.

Posted: 8/23/2017 11:42 AM

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Warp

Banned User

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

If we want to encourage people to submit TASes specifically to be shown at GDQ for the first time, perhaps there could be a small incentive for that: After it has been shown at GDQ, it would then be permanently published at tasvideos.org on a special page dedicated to such runs. Even if the run is later surpassed by another (eg. by being faster), the original run would still remain on that page, forever (even if it's obsoleted in the regular runs list). It would be some kind of history of all runs that have been first shown at GDQ. Just an idea.

Posted: 8/23/2017 3:59 PM

Post subject: Highlighting GDQ runs, runs specifically for GDQ, game ideas

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dwangoAC

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Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014

I'm going to scattershot reply to a few things that have been said in the thread thus far that I have thoughts on. First, I agree with the general sentiment that a TAS block that consists entirely of new runs made just for GDQ would probably be a poor choice for a number of reasons, the least of which is that we only have 10 days left and the quality of such submissions would probably be low. Having said that, I do want to submit at least one "surprise" run that will be new and tailored just for the GDQ event. I'd prefer that surprise was a playaround of some game where the intent is to cause as much mayhem through glitchiness as possible before completing the game well under existing human times for the target game. This game should probably *not* be SMW because if we submit that again we're going to get some really dirty looks but I'm sure there are some other good choices. We would probably submit this game as a surprise with a private note to the submissions committee to allow the run to be developed over the next couple of months, to be finished by the end of the year. As far as highlighting runs that have been at GDQ events is concerned, the biggest issue is that many, many things we have done cannot be submitted on the site. Have a look at the list of past GDQ appearances and compare it to what we have been able to submit (let alone get published) and you'll see what I mean. This is something I have tried and failed to convince the rest of the staff is important and I am no longer willing to fight that fight, it is clear I'm outnumbered and GDQ content is not important enough (or doesn't fit in well enough) to be in a first-class category that is searchable through the Movies page. Having said that, I really do like the idea of a badge / icon that indicates a given run has been shown at a GDQ for the ones that *are* published. Thoughts? I think perhaps people are going too far with saying no ACE at all - the problem is that things veered way too far into the technical showing-off realm (I blame myself entirely for that getting as out of hand as it did). Having a nice, exciting ACE would still be very welcomed by a large subset of the audience, but that doesn't mean it is a hard requirement that we have one either. What I'm trying to say is what's important is entertaining the audience and I'm not willing to hardline exclude content before we've even had a chance to see it. I, for one, would welcome a fun exploit with a short but interesting payload if it fit in with the rest of the block well. Bonus points if said ACE allows us to do a credits roll to on-screen highlight the efforts of everyone who contributed to the TAS block, that was a good choice during AGDQ 2017. Yet again I end my diatribe with the question - thoughts? Thanks again to everyone chipping in to work through content. In light of the fact this thread is now firmly discussing AGDQ 2018 I'm going to change the thread title to reflect that.

I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 8/23/2017 4:04 PM

Post subject: Re: Highlighting GDQ runs, runs specifically for GDQ, game ideas

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Masterjun

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dwangoAC wrote:

This game should probably *not* be SMW because if we submit that again we're going to get some really dirty looks but I'm sure there are some other good choices.

It has a sequel, just saying.

Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)

Posted: 8/23/2017 4:33 PM

Post subject: Re: Highlighting GDQ runs, runs specifically for GDQ, game ideas

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Warp

Banned User

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

dwangoAC wrote:

As far as highlighting runs that have been at GDQ events is concerned, the biggest issue is that many, many things we have done cannot be submitted on the site.

My suggestion was about having a page at tasvideos.org that would be special. It would bypass the normal submission procedure. Those particular TASes would get there merely for having been showcased at GDQ.

I think perhaps people are going too far with saying no ACE at all - the problem is that things veered way too far into the technical showing-off realm

ACEs have already been demonstrated several times at GDQ. I'm not sure what else is there to demonstrate, other than making it for all intents and purposes a demo (rather than a game completion). But GDQ is not a demo compo, but a speedrunning marathon. I really think ACE demos have overstayed their welcome. But that's just my opinion. I suppose that the closest thing that it could be compared to is a glitch demonstration, which some runners may do after a run, if they have the time. But it's usually an extra, not the main attraction.

Posted: 8/23/2017 5:01 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)

Joined: 4/17/2010
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One problem with ACE is that we can't continue outdoing ourselves technically, because, as has been noted lately, there are basically only 2 ways to go ACE: - Streaming AV of arbitrary relevance and with little to no limits - Hacking the game and playing its improved version Both have been done live, the former doesn't even suggest any room for improvements to make it more entertaining anymore. The latter might have some potential, but still needs tons of dedication. ACE means no limit to me. And when there's no limit, it's hard to appreciate the work, because it gets hard to impress. To be impressed, the viewer should understand the limitations and then understand how they are overcome, in a creative and unique way. Boulder race was a great example of combining TAS, real-time play, novelty, and actual human emotions and entertainment. Dunno if something like this can be invented again, so I'd vote for some non-ACE glitchfest, as broken as [1955] SNES Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 "playaround" by SDR, Thevlackdemonn2294 & Dark_Noob in 30:28.38.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 8/23/2017 8:05 PM

Post subject: Re: Highlighting GDQ runs, runs specifically for GDQ, game ideas

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Arc

Editor, Experienced player (826)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona

Arc wrote:

1. A game from a series that everyone knows and loves: Mario, Zelda, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, or Sonic. 2. A movie that hasn't been published yet; something that would debut at the event. 3. A movie that is not just fast/perfect but shows something unexpected.

dwangoAC wrote:

First, I agree with the general sentiment that a TAS block that consists entirely of new runs made just for GDQ would probably be a poor choice for a number of reasons, the least of which is that we only have 10 days left and the quality of such submissions would probably be low.

I agree that we should not try to crank out a great TAS in a limited timeframe. I'm not saying to start making a new one now. But there is a GDQ every 6 months. Anytime, now or in the future, that someone is finishing up something that they know is a significant improvement to a popular game (likely TAS of the Year candidate), they could privately contact dwango in advance to arrange to debut it at whatever the next GDQ is. GDQ is our Super Bowl or WrestleMania-level event, we have to be at our best for it. The high viewership is the incentive to make a great run and keep it secret for a few extra weeks/months. If you publish your hypothetical amazing TAS right away, 5,000-10,000 people will see it. If you save it for the next GDQ, 200,000+ people will see your work and talk about it outside of the site. Also, the plebs should be able to understand what's special about what's being presented. For example, Super Mario 64 '1-Key' would have been a good movie to debut at a GDQ (kept secret until then). Because plebs would have been like 'omg they actually did the moat door, wowowow.' The plebs don't really like when you play an old video from the site. Imagine a keynote speech where a company talks about features released 3 years ago. Old news! People want to see games done quick™. Debut the hottest new time-savers that will get the plebs buzzing on plebbit. Not just 'oh it's a bot making no mistakes, who cares?' Stuff that breaks that game in a way that people hadn't thought possible. And then combine it with good, fun commentary and you're golden.

Posted: 8/23/2017 10:18 PM

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andypanther

Any

Former player

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Remember that lovely discussion about the AVGN tag? So if that gets removed, why should GDQ get an exception?

Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.

Posted: 8/25/2017 11:59 AM

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EEssentia

Joined: 4/13/2009
Posts: 431

If GDQ TASes were to become more traditional instead of playaround, exploits with chat, etc, then I don't see why they wouldn't accept such TASes onto the site? It may be tailored to GDQ, but the fact still remains that they complete the games as fast as possible while still playing around, that is, no different from existing movies.

Posted: 8/25/2017 5:39 PM

Post subject: Re: Highlighting GDQ runs, runs specifically for GDQ, game ideas

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Alyosha

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dwangoAC wrote:

Having said that, I really do like the idea of a badge / icon that indicates a given run has been shown at a GDQ for the ones that *are* published. Thoughts?

I think it's a good idea. GDQs are our only real exposure to a general audience, and runs featured there are also some of our best content.

dwangoAC wrote:

I, for one, would welcome a fun exploit with a short but interesting payload if it fit in with the rest of the block well. Bonus points if said ACE allows us to do a credits roll to on-screen highlight the efforts of everyone who contributed to the TAS block, that was a good choice during AGDQ 2017. Yet again I end my diatribe with the question - thoughts?

I don't think a TAS block would be much fun or entertaining without something like this. As Mothrayas pointed out earlier, a lot of the fun of watching GDQs comes from the humanness of live runs and runners. Even with good commentary, we miss out on this entirely (especially if it's just replayed on a computer which is another step removed from actually playing the game.) Something interactive in real time with a real person (like SMB3 or Mario Kart choco mountain were) is much more entertaining in my opinion. I'm not purposely trying to be a downer here, but I'm pretty skeptical that just playing several normal TASes back to back will hold many people's attention. EDIT: I guess since I'm advocating for something interactive I should give an example of something that could be done within the relatively short time available and without great technical difficulty. One avenue of ACE that is untapped so far is sending information back to TASBot via controller pings. As long as it's only a few bytes per frame, there should be enough time to send information to some offboard script for processing, and send the results back to TASBot to write back to the game. Ex SMB in SMW, you could have TASBot directly control the enemies for example and have them do trolly things they couldn't ordinarily do to react to the player. As long as the resources for the original SMB in SMW run are still available, this might be something that could be done pretty easily as well as be pretty funny to watch. There are probably lots of ways to do interactive things with TASBot (imagine a trolly anti-coop AI player 2 in Battletoads for example) but this is just something I thought might be plausible.

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