Additionally, specific other types of games are not allowed in any circumstance. Video games rated adult-only, or other adult video games with strong sexual content and/or extreme violence to AO standards, are not allowed.
Uhhh... why? This rule seems completely arbitrary to me.
For example, I would theoretically be able to submit a TAS of Manhunt 2 for PS2, PSP or Wii, but not for PC, even though the latter is probably faster to speedrun due version differences, and as far as I know is the version with the current world record.
Yes, I know about the usual argument about people getting offended/traumatized upon stumbling on said content accidentally and losing trust/reputation as a result to justify censorship. It still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, censorship offends me greatly, but this kind of rule is usually designed to achieve the opposite!
Now I don't want to start a debate about censorship beliefs and which opinion is better, because this will go nowhere fast. What I would like however is to have TASes of adult video games have a place to exist on TASVideos.
I'm not sure how strongly people on each side of the debate are, but either way, I believe having a "viewer discretion is advised" warning at the beginning of related encodes and hiding related publication screenshot by default would be a reasonable compromise that would please everyone.
What is your opinion on the matter? Should TASVideos allow adult content, and if so how should it handle it?
Also, what exactly constitutes "adult-only" video games?
The God of War series has pretty much in every single game at least one scene that's extremely explicitly sexual. Would that disqualify it?
How about the The Witcher series, which likewise has such scenes?
Would Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas be disqualified because it has an ESBR rating of Adults Only? Or how about Fahrenheit, which has the same rating?
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6452
Location: The land down under.
Warp wrote:
Would Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas be disqualified because it has an ESBR rating of Adults Only?
Yes, that's why the PS2/PC/Xbox box covers state "M".
Yes, I know what the ESRB is stating AO (Due to Hot Coffee), but I also can see what the Americans got in the very end.
Australians Banned it at first due to the little Hot Coffee incident (which can only be accessible by changing code to bring it back in), which was later taken out.
To Summarize: A Mod to the game code to bring back a game feature gave it the AO rating (after further investigation). This cannot be accessed in any normal way, only with the use of Mods you can use some "video game hacking tools" and have some Hot Coffee. It was later changed to M when 1.01 came out and removed any chance to Mod Hot Coffee back in (allegedly).
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4091
Location: The Netherlands
I wrote that rule, so I'll elaborate on it. The idea of it is basically identical to the rules of other video game video sites including SDA and twitch.tv.
TASVideos as a site intends to maintain some form of family-friendliness, and to uphold itself as a site for cool video game movies, not a shock site, fetish site, or porn site. That's why the site refuses video games of that nature through this rule.
SmashManiac wrote:
censorship
TASVideos is a private entity and reserves the right to publish or not publish any movie it receives. Refusing to publish a movie submission to its front pages is not censorship by any meaningful definition.
Warp wrote:
Also, what exactly constitutes "adult-only" video games?
The wording specifically says "rated adult-only" (although SmashManiac did not copy over the link). That is, a video game is considered AO if the ESRB rates it AO. Games that do not have a rating of this sort will be looked at case-by-case and rejected if they show qualities on the same level as AO-rated games (this is what "to AO standards" refers to).
Warp wrote:
The God of War series
All God of War games are rated M by ESRB, meaning all of them are not affected by this rule.
Warp wrote:
How about the The Witcher series
All Witcher games are rated M by ESRB, meaning all of them are not affected by this rule.
Warp wrote:
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
SmashManiac wrote:
Manhunt 2
These are examples of games that have both uncensored and censored versions released, where the censored versions are rated M (thus eligible in any case), and it's the uncensored versions where the issue lies.
In these cases, what matters for me is what exactly is shown in the game on a run-by-run basis. A run of San Andreas on the original version would be fine as long as it does not access any Hot Coffee content. Likewise, Manhunt 2 would be acceptable as long as no scenes are shown that are unavailable in the censored version.
Warp wrote:
The (uncensored) remastered version is rated M by ESRB.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I just want to add that I strongly agree with Mothrayas here. We have many children visit the site and some of our finest members are quite young. Our site is meant to cater to the whole of the gaming community, and not be restricted to adults. Therefore, it is best not to publish content not suitable for children.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I just want to add that I strongly agree with Mothrayas here. We have many children visit the site and some of our finest members are quite young. Our site is meant to cater to the whole of the gaming community, and not be restricted to adults. Therefore, it is best not to publish content not suitable for children.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4091
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
ESRB M rating is for 17+.
AO ratings are pretty distinct from M ratings. There are reasons that console manufacturers refuse to publish AO games, many retailers refuse to sell AO games, Twitch bans streaming AO games, etc., whereas there is no stigma at all with M games.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Skilled player
(1007)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Most people who have known me for a while know that I am highly against pornography or anything that supports or encourages the exploitation of women or contributes to human trafficking but I can also confess that I really enjoyed playing GTA:Vice City when it came out (and hated that one mission where you had to watch a striptease act, but I digress). I'm very glad that we have a policy against AO games and I am in support of labeling potentially offensive runs. While I may have played GTA before our kids were born I wouldn't play it in front of my kids now (in the same way that I'm putting off playing Assassin's Creed II with asassyknitter until after the kids are in bed at night, but I digress again).
I'm not in favor of censoring M rated games but under certain case-by-case situations it may make sense to add labeling to the encoding and disclaimer screen shown in encodes. Just my two cents.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
dwangoAC wrote:
under certain case-by-case situations it may make sense to add labeling to the encoding and disclaimer screen shown in encodes.
I like this idea.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
My two cents on the issue is to have a simple age check for encode links for games rated M - this is what Valve does, and is in practice the same as what outlets such as GameStop or Funcoland or $videoGameRetailer_Local do by asking to see ID before selling M-rated games.
It doesn't need to be overly complex, just a simple "enter age to proceed" dropdown.
I Specify "encode links" since someone who wants to watch the movie file itself already has the game.
Thank you very much Mothrayas for sharing why you created that rule; it makes for a very good base for a discussion.
I have to correct you on one detail however: the first thing returned by Google when searching the word "censorship" is "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security", which is exactly what this adult rule does in its current form. So while TASVideos can ban such content, it's definitely censorship.
I few people mentioned that banning AO-games on TASVideos was to make it a safe environment for children. While I disagree with this opinion, it has some merit and I can definitely understand the concern. However, as I said earlier, I believe it is possible for TASVideos to remain a safe environment for vulnerable people AND allow adult video games movies for everybody else. For example, Amazon (which owns Twitch) has a giant collection of explicit sex-related products, but you have to search for them to see them (for the USA market at least).
The age checker solution suggested by Pokota seems like an interesting solution to me (although I would ask for the birth date instead of the age). The issue I see with it however it that it fails to take into account that age is only one factor of a child's maturity. For instance, I've seen plenty of 10-year-old children play M-rated games such as Counter-Strike without any issues whatsoever and with their parents' permission. I really don't feel TASVideos should bypass parents' beliefs about what's good or bad for their children. That said, I believe this solution is still better over banning AO-rated games altogether.
@Spikestuff: Can you clarify your last post? I do not understand what your point is.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4091
Location: The Netherlands
SmashManiac wrote:
I have to correct you on one detail however: the first thing returned by Google when searching the word "censorship" is "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security", which is exactly what this adult rule does in its current form. So while TASVideos can ban such content, it's definitely censorship.
Once again, refusing to endorse and publish a movie is not censorship by any meaningful definition.
Censorship would be if we actively removed and suppressed submissions of adult games. We do not, and if you'll look deep enough, you can still find submissions of strip poker etc., they just are not endorsed and placed on the main site.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
AO ratings are pretty distinct from M ratings. There are reasons that console manufacturers refuse to publish AO games, many retailers refuse to sell AO games, Twitch bans streaming AO games, etc., whereas there is no stigma at all with M games.
My point is that if the argument is that tasvideos.org should be child-friendly, then M-rated games are not such. Even the ESRB description for the rating says 17+.
To me it looks like the difference between M (17+) and AO (18+) is quite fuzzy at times. The latter seems to be stamped onto a game only because of rather subjective controversy, rather than there being a clear definitive standard that clearly delineates the difference between the two. (Eg. some AO-rated games do not have sexual content at all. Some M-rated games have sexual content. The distinction seems very subjective and fuzzy.)
I suppose that what I'm saying is that if the principle is "M-rated games are ok but AO-rated games are not", the argument cannot be "to make the site child-friendly" because neither type of game is.
Yeah you gotta consider your demographic. What group is bigger? 18+ or younger? Who do you want more of? You really can't have AO games on websites like this without a disclaimer and I'm sure with how little there are, it wouldn't be worth it to restrict people just for those few games.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4091
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
To me it looks like the difference between M (17+) and AO (18+) is quite fuzzy at times. The latter seems to be stamped onto a game only because of rather subjective controversy, rather than there being a clear definitive standard that clearly delineates the difference between the two. (Eg. some AO-rated games do not have sexual content at all. Some M-rated games have sexual content. The distinction seems very subjective and fuzzy.)
AO ratings are not exclusively for sexual content. A variety of factors are involved, and while "strong sexual content" is applied to many of them (24 out of 29 AO ratings, in fact, plus two more that include "sexual themes"), it is not the only one. Violence considered too extreme is another factor that can get a game an AO rating.
More on this is described in the Wikipedia page that the very rule links to (and which has been linked here), and the ESRB page that Nach linked to here.
Warp wrote:
I suppose that what I'm saying is that if the principle is "M-rated games are ok but AO-rated games are not", the argument cannot be "to make the site child-friendly" because neither type of game is.
There is no absolute line of child-friendliness, and what one may consider child friendly, another will not. You could have endless arguments about this. We also want to keep a relatively sane policy, where we don't end up banning half of all video games.
So we need to draw the line somewhere, and the same line where retailers refuse to stock and sell games, where publishers refuse to release games, and where video sites refuse to stream games, and which is self-enforced in the gaming industry basically almost everywhere, would be a logical line to draw.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
We have a custom system. It is easy to add a field in the database to track the rating of games. It's no challenge to filter out adult titles by default. Depending on how troublesome we want to be, we can even require people to sign up for an account if they want to consume adult content.
So, yes, there are satisfactory solutions to avoid people being exposed to adult content by accident. As for purposefully seeking it out, that is something only proper parenting can deal with.
As for my opinion on the matter: I don't mind adult content on this site. As long as it is otherwise appropriate for the site. Many titles with adult content would be rejected on other grounds anyway. Sadly, adult games are rarely particularly interesting to speedrun. Sure, I can cite at least one well worth speedruns, but that's an exception.
I hate both games with explicit sexual content and with excessive violence/cruelty. Also, it looks like publishing AO-rated game runs would make things complicated and controversial. So I'm perfectly fine with having any AO-rated game runs rejected by default.
About the M-rated games, it looks like to me that each case should be treated differently. I think the runs which feature a lot of shocking content, should be rejected, while the borderline ones could simply feature some graphical and/or audio censure in order to hide the hurtful content.
dwangoAC wrote:
under certain case-by-case situations it may make sense to add labeling to the encoding and disclaimer screen shown in encodes.
I'm pretty sure that no disclaimer would persuade anyone to stop watching a video. On the contrary, kids may get even more interested in watching just because they think that "breaking rules is cool".
henke37 wrote:
Depending on how troublesome we want to be, we can even require people to sign up for an account if they want to consume adult content..
I think that this would not only leave the problem unsolved, but also annoy most viewes. I would personally be very annoyed to be forced to sign up and/or log in just to see a video that I don't even know if I'm going to like.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
SmashManiac wrote:
Thank you very much Mothrayas for sharing why you created that rule; it makes for a very good base for a discussion.
It's not open for discussion. You can discuss it, but it's not going to change.
Warp wrote:
To me it looks like the difference between M (17+) and AO (18+) is quite fuzzy at times. The latter seems to be stamped onto a game only because of rather subjective controversy, rather than there being a clear definitive standard that clearly delineates the difference between the two.
The age part of T, M, or AO is really a suggestion. Many parents have no issues with their child playing an M game if they're say 14+.
Warp wrote:
I suppose that what I'm saying is that if the principle is "M-rated games are ok but AO-rated games are not", the argument cannot be "to make the site child-friendly" because neither type of game is.
There's a larger issue. Posting videos of AO games anywhere on the site is enough to have various content filters (Microsoft, Symantec, "safe" ISPs, and others) to ban the entire site. Posting videos of M games will fly under the radar of most content filtering and not ban the entire site.
As Mothrayas put it above, there's no stigma associated with M like there is with AO.
henke37 wrote:
We have a custom system. It is easy to add a field in the database to track the rating of games. It's no challenge to filter out adult titles by default.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Skilled player
(1007)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Pokota wrote:
My two cents on the issue is to have a simple age check for encode links for games rated M - this is what Valve does, and is in practice the same as what outlets such as GameStop or Funcoland or $videoGameRetailer_Local do by asking to see ID before selling M-rated games.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
under certain case-by-case situations it may make sense to add labeling to the encoding and disclaimer screen shown in encodes.
I'm pretty sure that no disclaimer would persuade anyone to stop watching a video. On the contrary, kids may get even more interested in watching just because they think that "breaking rules is cool".
Let's be honest for a moment and acknowledge that nanny filters and age checks are nothing more than a technical solution to a social problem. To rephrase that, if you have some kind of blacklist that prevents people in a library from accessing pornographic material on public terminals you will likely find that people will figure out ways around it, either by sidestepping the filter or *gasp* checking out a physical book that contains the same type of content. The point is that it's a social issue; people who want to get past a warning are always going to do so, just as ThunderAxe31 stated.
Having said all that, as a parent I find it very helpful when the React channel on YouTube adds a disclaimer at the beginning of content that may not be appropriate. Some "Try not to laugh or smile" videos are absolutely a blast to watch with our kids while others warn that they contain adult content allowing us to skip them and move on to something else. The point is that the disclaimer allows us to make an informed decision about whether we want to keep watching or not. It will never, ever stop someone who is dedicated from watching it from watching it, the same way any proposed age check would probably be even less effective than a simple disclaimer for this site.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this; I'm sure people who don't have a child in their life probably have a completely different perspective but I hope I've made a convincing argument that a disclaimer will not hurt them and only stands to benefit others like my wife and I.
FWIW, I feel that these games don't belong here - it's not like we are the only place TASes can exist (much as we like to pretend otherwise), so there is nothing stopping anyone publishing content from these games elsewhere. However, on a practical level, the AO games which are being discussed above are not the sort of games that are currently amenable to TASing. We ought to clarify the rules at some point, but they are mostly not a concern for current levels of TAS capability. More relevant, and wholly undiscussed thus far, are Atari porn games. While I imagine they would be vault fodder, they can certainly be TASed with current technology. They also pre-date the age rating system. What to do about those?
Also, the existence of ACE means that a TAS of a non-adult game could still theoretically involve adult content...
I hate both games with explicit sexual content and with excessive violence/cruelty.
And I hate sim games. That doesn't mean they should be rejected by default.
I'm sorry if my words where open to misinterpretation; of course I wouldn't ever suggest to ban a game just because it doesn't fully meet my personal tastes.
What I was trying to say with "I hate", is that I think that games which mostly consists in doing or witnessing of sexual acts or violent/cruel acts are a disgrace for the gaming in general.
Also, that was said just in order to explaining why I'm personally fine with the current rules, as I stated later in the same line. Sorry if expressing my opinion was out of place.
dwangoAC wrote:
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this; I'm sure people who don't have a child in their life probably have a completely different perspective but I hope I've made a convincing argument that a disclaimer will not hurt them and only stands to benefit others like my wife and I.
Of course, in my opinion, disclaimers wouldn't create any problem, contrarily of annoying and easily bypassable age checks.
Still, I'm wondering if it would be considered an even better solution my idea to censure only the most shocking parts in encodes, of the M-rated games which represents borderline cases. The viewers could still watch the uncensored run by playing it on emulator, which is often too much hard for the youngest childrens, not to mention the inability to skip forward in the movie and the emulation techincal difficulties which are often found in modern consoles, which are basically the ones that feature the most controversial games.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Skilled player
(1007)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Still, I'm wondering if it would be considered an even better solution my idea to censure only the most shocking parts in encodes, of M-rated games which represents borderline cases. The viewers could still watch the uncensored run by playing it on emulator, which is often too much hard for the youngest childrens, not to mention the inability to skip forward in the movie and the emulation techincal difficulties which are often found in modern consoles, which are basically the ones that feature the most controversial games.
You're suggesting adding video editing work to the publishers that is of little benefit and is much more time consuming than simply adding a static image or text overlay to the beginning and being done with it. Now, I'm oddly in favor of cutsceneless encodes on occasion (OoT was much more enjoyable that way) but I don't like the idea of adding work that will likely only cause irritation to most everyone involved. I don't want to come across as a jerk, and I'd agree that if time and resources were not of concern it could be a possible solution but I think there are better options.
To Summarize: A Mod to the game code to bring back a game feature gave it the AO rating (after further investigation). This cannot be accessed in any normal way, only with the use of Mods you can use some "video game hacking tools" and have some Hot Coffee. It was later changed to M when 1.01 came out and removed any chance to Mod Hot Coffee back in (allegedly).
