Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I don't even care anymore. Its up to the TASer anyway if he wants to do the glitch or not. I consider it a cheap trick and major glitch but, who the fuck I am I to say it can't be used.
Again its really up to the TASer and I'm not and never will be a TASer because that shit is too tedious for me. I respect TASing as an Art Form and who am I to restrict their vision.
That is the thing about only allowing so many categories in the first place it really restricts what you want to do in a run. Maybe people would be more motivated to do more runs otherwise without fear of being rejected, but I digress because I don't want to bring up any undesired topics again. The site has rules and this site is about super plays. Just doing that glitch to me doesn't feel like much of a super play when compared to taking on Ridley with a Pee Shooter.
To me, the fun of low% has always been about watching an extremely underequipped Samus struggle her way through the game in situations that should barely even be possible. That results in creative, unique strategies being used all throughout the run to overcome the challenges that that presents. Given that description, it's easy to think that the challenge of fighting the bosses with virtually no equipment is part of the fun of the category as well, but frankly, Ridley and MB are just boring. There is absolutely nothing good about them in a low% run.
For that reason, I'm not opposed to ammo under/overflow being the sole published version of 13%. It would make the relatively minor sacrifice of less intense energy/ammo management to remove what have always been the two largest detriments to the category's entertainment.
Do you know if it'll end up being useful for the any% run? I know it has significantly less use since it'd be after Ridley and you're more well equipped for MB, but it'd still end up saving considerable time on MB or allow you to skip Plasma beam.
Do you know if it'll end up being useful for the any% run? I know it has significantly less use since it'd be after Ridley and you're more well equipped for MB, but it'd still end up saving considerable time on MB or allow you to skip Plasma beam.
The fact that I don't have enough supers to CF is a bit of a problem. I suppose the best option would be to collect Spore Spawn's supers on the first visit to Brinstar, which would also speed up Ridley a bit, but I don't intend to go that far back.
I stopped working on it for a few months, so it's only at the LN exit. Draygon is actually what's holding it up at the moment; I want to prove that the strategy I have planned will work before moving forward, since alternative strategies would probably change ammo requirements. The idea is the same as Saturn's RBO - shinesparking to the top and killing draygon with a wave SBA - but much quicker and much more complicated.
EDIT: I should also note that the public WIP was improved quite a bit. I found a way to skip Kraid's etank in favor of Ridley's and still make it through Norfair/LN around 70 frames faster despite having less energy.
Sounds interesting seeing as the RBO fight against Draygon is already one of my favorite moments ever in a Super Metroid run. The whole underwater segment seems like it'll be pretty spectacular.
Also very impressive on the E-Tank note.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Since Sniq´s impression is that there aren´t any TASers in here (anymore) that would work on future SM TASes (that would use the newer tech) other than Taco and the few people that get all the stuff from Sniq already, and thus doesn´t really want to post most of his testing results and discoveries (the stuff that he actually posted was just the tip of the iceberg) at this place (especially since he isn´t happy about how his discoveries are handled in here, since
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Since Sniq´s impression is that there aren´t any TASers in here (anymore) that would work on future SM TASes (that would use the newer tech) other than Taco and the few people that get all the stuff from Sniq already, and thus doesn´t really want to post most of his testing results and discoveries (the stuff that he actually posted was just the tip of the iceberg) at this place (especially since he isn´t happy about how his discoveries are handled in here, since
Draygon is actually what's holding it up at the moment; I want to prove that the strategy I have planned will work before moving forward, since alternative strategies would probably change ammo requirements. The idea is the same as Saturn's RBO - shinesparking to the top and killing draygon with a wave SBA - but much quicker and much more complicated.
Really looking forward to this run, Taco! Best of luck figuring out what you need for making this work.
Taco wrote:
I should also note that the public WIP was improved quite a bit. I found a way to skip Kraid's etank in favor of Ridley's and still make it through Norfair/LN around 70 frames faster despite having less energy.
Damn!!! And I thought it was already as good as it could be! Great work!
Me and Sniq finally got our semi-optimized 13% Charge/Speed Route Test TAS done. Final time was 50:41, and this can probably be pushed below 50 with further optimization.
There's a few major mistakes like not blowing up the tube when passing it the first time and some other minor details that can be improved, but the route itself is probably very close to final.
Early inputs for this test was borrowed from Taco's Any% WIP, and some rooms in norfair are heavily inspired by Namespoofers 14% Speedbooster TAS.
Any ideas or suggestions for improvements are welcome.
LSMV:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/30904919119106655
Encode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moIWUc_HoQM
I enjoyed that test run - getting run speed out of seemingly nowhere in a lot of places was interesting, the slow climb up Maridia's walls was amusing (but got old quickly, but I also realize there's nothing you can do), and there was some excellent use of shinespark copies to do damage to things.
I did find the Ridley and Mother Brain fights to be tedious and boring though, partly because those fights drag on, but also because damage isn't applied as close as possible to the boss's face, so it looked like a regular good player fighting those two - stay away from the boss, charge and shoot at range, lather, rinse, repeat.
I recognize that this is a test TAS, and I know that the final version will be polished, but I don't suspect that those two fights are going to get much faster, and they take up a significant portion of the run, which (to me) detracts from overall entertainment.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I guess Ridley and Mother Brain fights are the biggest drawback of this route, just like in the current "low%, Speedbooster" run.
It's a shame that 13% PB-Ice is one of the route that require missile underflow.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Is it possible in the room before Botwoon to release the Pancake Enemy, shoot half the pillar, jump into it to get stuck in the Ceiling/Floor and get a flash suit from it?
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
"Is it possible in the room before Botwoon to release the Pancake Enemy, shoot half the pillar, jump into it to get stuck in the Ceiling/Floor and get a flash suit from it?"
In short: We had this idea long ago already, and Sniq tried to get stuck deeper into the shot-block to make use of this, but it didn´t work.
If you have Bluesuit of Flashsuit already, even in the suitless case (with Reserves), then yes, one could get into the ground a bit on top of the lowest of the 3 shot-blocks (but not into the bottom ground, because annoyingly none of those shot-block walls allow to just shoot out the lower 2 shot-blocks while the upper one is kept in order to get a bit into the ground), and then one can get hit by such red worm and extend knockback frames for a Flashsuit, so yes, a Flashsuit can be gotten, but it wouldn´t help much. Reason is that the Flashsuit producing (preferably horizontal) spark with which one wants to break the speed-block wall (and still have another Flashsuit left for Draygon) is initially positioned too high up, such that the horizontal spark would immediately at the beginning hit some solid pixels in the ceiling and stop right away.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Liked the run a lot, really loved the Draygon kill and some of the more bizarre shinespark/flashsuit setups. Nothing that immediately jumped out to me on first watch far as improvements goes, other than general movement optimization and some potential improvements in ammo management. Maybe entering the 3rd metroid room already morphed, placing the first PB immediately and then using the metroids invulnerability frames to run straight through the first metroid instead of rolling under?
I enjoyed the testrun quite a lot. I've never seen this particular route in conjunction with the tricks used before. It's also very funny to see a low% get an a reverse tank, since that is one of the less important items of the game, but then again, I don't know the low% route well enough to understand the exact missile and health requirements the run has. I'm looking forward to how an optimized version might look.
Dem moonwalks tho.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
This was an excellent test run. Looked incredibly well optimized throughout. Moonwalks looking sexy as well. Cant wait to see the final run!
Currently there are 7 published Super Metroid runs. When this run gets published, it will drop to 6, and when Taco's run is done that number will drop down to 5. Looking forward to it!
...I don't know the low% route well enough to understand the exact missile and health requirements the run has.
As far as ammunition, you need a total of 18 projectiles to fully break Mother Brain 1's glass case, and then I think she has 6000 health, so once the glass is at least opened, enough of your missiles/Supers need to hit her directly to drop that to 0 by the time the glass breaks.
For energy, Mother Brain 2's Rainbow Beam does 300 damage, and there is no way to pause during it to manually trip your reserve tanks, so you need at least 1 energy tank, and then any combination of 2 more energy tanks / 2 reserve tanks.
Both of these apply to all categories.
...I don't know the low% route well enough to understand the exact missile and health requirements the run has.
As far as ammunition, you need a total of 18 projectiles to fully break Mother Brain 1's glass case, and then I think she has 6000 health, so once the glass is at least opened, enough of your missiles/Supers need to hit her directly to drop that to 0 by the time the glass breaks.
For energy, Mother Brain 2's Rainbow Beam does 300 damage, and there is no way to pause during it to manually trip your reserve tanks, so you need at least 1 energy tank, and then any combination of 2 more energy tanks / 2 reserve tanks.
Both of these apply to all categories.
Oh, that clears a lot of things up. Thanks for explaining.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Here is some routing for 13%PB-X-Ray, which is likely the fastest option among the 13% options that use a Crystal Flash during Draygon´s grab:
Regarding upcoming room names, I mainly refer to this list of rooms with their corresponding names: http://deanyd.net/sm/index.php?title=List_of_Rooms
The beginning would basically be like Taco´s early game inputs (including Moonwalk) for the new any% TAS (or even better, if possible), up to early Super Missiles, except that the Terminator E-Tank might be skipped.
If one takes the Terminator E-Tank, then one will have more energy for Maridia (without Varia) and shinesparks (which will be explained later on), but if the E-Tank is taken, then one will have to refill more energy (which means more drops being required) until Reserves get partially filled which is required for G-/R-Mode setups in Maridia.
Then the Brinstar R-Tank is gotten, since it is the fastest R-Tank, and at least one is required, and existing TASes indicate that getting the R-Tank after the early Super Missiles would be faster than vice versa.
From here on, one could get Spore Spawn´s Super Missiles, which seems only useful in the case that one doesn´t go to Wrecked Ship early on (to get the quicker, left Super Missile there), gets X-Ray, and enters Maridia from the top of Red Brinstar using G-Mode, or if on does some R-Mode CF-Flashsuit setup (roughly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJGJUP_0iWI&index=18&list=PL5If8zSOO37bcgBr6XeWNtZMrxHn6fARx ) near Kraid´s lair to travel through Maridia starting from the GlassTube by chaining sparks (using tricks showcased in the movies from one of my previous posts), but the latter one is not an option, since this map here of all places in which the R-Mode CF-Flashsuit setup can technically be done ( http://i.imgur.com/Xo4Lb8E.png ; in the green rooms, the room state does not matter for the setup; for the orange rooms, those rooms have to be in a certain state in order to allow the FlashSuit setup) shows that in Kraid´s lair no such room exists to do so, because one additionally would have at most 10 powerbombs for the CF and would hence need a quick PB drop during the setup. The only reasonable place to do such R-Mode CF-Flashsuit setup at all seems to be the activated central shaft room in Wrecked Ship (note that spark enemies in WS could also rapidly hurt Samus during a CF, but they don´t allow to gain Reserve energy during the CF inside those beforehand, since one cannot control the energy drain by switching suits during the CF, if one doesn´t have suits).
Note that Draygon needs to be killed before Ridley, since without Charge, one doesn´t have enough ammunition to kill Ridley beforehand, so it makes sense to avoid Norfair early on (and also Kraid´s lair, which means no Varia for Maridia) because of elevator rides and backtracking if one would go down there, due to the fast option to enter Maridia via G-Mode in Red Brinstar from above Everest room.
Furthermore, if one unpauses the game without having Speedbooster, then Bluesuit is lost if one had it before, so for a few things like adapting Reserve energy (to 4, 3, 2 or 1) for (fast) G-Mode setups, one would need to be careful in that case.
Now, the early Powerbombs are collected, and then X-Ray and/or the upper Red Brinstar Powerbombs (in any order), or skipping both, to afterwards continue towards Phantoon and getting Moat-Missiles on the way. In the case that one decided to not get the Moat-Missiles, not kill Phantoon and not collect the left WS Super Missiles, and instead chose to get Spore Spawn´s Super Missiles (since they should still be faster than Maridia Mainstreet Super Missiles, due to the detour after getting them to set up the JesusWalk for which I linked a movie in a previous post, especially since no sparks could be used), and probably the Missiles near Charge, and X-Ray to then immediately enter Maridia from the top left, Phantoon would preferably be killed last (on the way to Tourian), and no sparks could be used to speed up Maridia up to Draygon, because of the lack of near/close R-Mode CF-Flashsuit setup places.
In the early WS case (which I deem faster), one could get the Flashsuit with the above mentioned method, and would in any case go back to Red Brinstar (since Forgotten Highway is a far too long detour towards Draygon), and switch Flashsuit to Bluesuit via Crystal-Spark ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKCn8nD-crQ ) probably in the nomnom-plant room (due to quick drops) from where the G-Mode can be set up (with 2 quick elevator rides), in case it isn´t faster to let a worm crawl to the door to the savestation room to enter the Green Gate room in indirect G-Mode. In the case of having a Flashsuit, it probably is slower to instead continue towards the GlassTube to start travelling up from there via Flashsuit producing sparks (for which either Reserves or speed-echoes seem to be needed in the water) or Bluesuit producing Superjumps set up via Slope-X-Mode.
Having arrived at Everest room, if one doesn´t have Bluesuit, the JesusWalk method needs to be applied, which is somewhat slow. Otherwise one could of course spark to the right door or use Slope-X-Mode for a Superjump to get to the same place, just with a Bluesuit additionally (and another option would be to do a Flashsuit producing Slopespark using the speed-echoes from the Bluesuit).
Now in snail room, one could do some short inbounds X-Ray-Climb (which works with Bluesuit aswell) and potentially fire a Super Missile at proper time meanwhile to enrage the off-screen moving snail crawling on the left Grapple-block wall so that it quickly meets Samus at the end of the climb for the R-Mode Force-Stand clip setup in pre-Botwoon room ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_S75DqLOaw&index=20&list=PL5If8zSOO37bcgBr6XeWNtZMrxHn6fARx ) if one doesn´t have Flashsuit which would get cancelled if one uses X-Ray in a non X-Mode-starting manner; or one could go the normal way and do some catnap222 strategy ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Ij1D7bx5M ).
In the Bluesuit case, no Force-Stand clip setup is required towards Botwoon (which is nice, and I think the early time-loss if one generates the first Flashsuit in WS should be worth it, provided using Flashsuit-/Bluesuit-techniques efficiently, and makes for fine entertainment aswell ;P). And it is to note that even though having enough ammunition for a ceiling-CF clip past the crumble-blocks in pre-Botwoon room, since there is no way to exit Botwoon´s room right after entering it (in order to refill the due to the CF lost, required ammunition), one could not continue that way, because of the missing Charge beam (even if one would farm all 6-1=5 (since 1 enemy needs to be used for a PB drop) slowly out of the CF´s powerbomb explosion area lured enemies before Botwoon).
Botwoon´s E-Tank seems useful in any case, and (except if another G-Mode setup is used, as it is demonstrated in 1 of the movies that I posted previously), together with traversing its tunnel, unavoidable without a spark. Otherwise, one can (get the E-Tank anyways and) either spark through the speed-blocks (and potentially farm the sandpit bugs), or walk through the speed-blocks in Bluesuit´s case (to e.g. spark up in pre-Colosseum room or past Colosseum), or one can use 1 of the red worms for Slope-X-Mode and spark in X-Mode through the speed-blocks to aswell have a Bluesuit afterwards.
For pre-Colosseum room, if one has Bluesuit, it should be possible to lure 1 of the sandpit farm bugs in the E-Tank room to the door to the right to charge a spark and do the JesusWalk setup that allows to enter X-Mode in the closing door-shell in pre-Colosseum room for a Superjump up this room (releasing Samus with yet another Bluesuit on top). Otherwise one has to slowly climb or spark up in pre-Colosseum room. Afterwards, one can potentially spark past Colosseum room (since the upcoming Draygon CF for which ammunition needs to be prepared will get one a Flashsuit anyways), if BlueSuit was kept until this point. Technically one could carry a Bluesuit into the Draygon fight, but I don´t see an advantage of doing so.
At Draygon, the Draygon-grab-CF probably wants to be executed early on, so that one gets a Flashsuit that together with (from there on almost unlimited) ammunition counts can be used to quickly get rid of the boss and exit the room with Bluesuit similarly to the RBO TAS (to either do slow inbounds X-Ray-Climb or spark up in pre-Draygon room). Sniq mentioned that it might be possible to enter X-Mode late at the Draygon fight (probably using Draygon´s body for knockback) and spark diagonally up to the right where the high platform is, in order to store a Superjump (and meanwhile, beforehand or afterwards kill Draygon), so that the in pre-Draygon room unleashed Superjump carries Samus to the top with a remaining Bluesuit.
So from here on, ammunition management is more or less trivialized and one can concentrate on health drops. On the way back, in the case of having a prepared spark, it of course could be used for Colosseum room or Botwoon E-Tank room to go down the left sandpits faster (and possibly using some method like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rk3NiVlHGY&index=14&list=PL5If8zSOO37bcgBr6XeWNtZMrxHn6fARx ), towards Varia before Norfair. I don´t think that the route involving the long vertical Maridian tube would be faster in any case. One could keep the spark even past Maridia, but I´m not sure how useful it would be for the further sections, and rather doubt that it helps, but maybe the Beetom speed-hall in Upper Norfair could then be used. And yet another R-Mode CF-Flashsuit setup from there on seems to just waste time aswell (but I´ll mention those things anyways, just for the sake of not missing ideas).
If one still doesn´t have 3 Tanks yet (which I doubt), there´d be Kraid´s E-Tank on the way, obviously. Then, the fast reverse Lower Norfair G-Mode setup is most likely applied, followed by fast Ninja-Pirates and a very fast Ridley fight (with Super Missiles, I assume).
Then out of Norfair towards Tourian (possibly with a detour in the delayed Phantoon fight case), using the Green-, Red- or Blue-Brinstar route (whatever is fastest), and finally powerbombing Metroids (without much trouble, I guess, because of the 10 Powerbombs cap), getting past the big Metroid, and finishing up MB´s room without Zebetite-skip and Stand-up glitch, followed by the Tourian escape.
- - -
For anyone (or any team) that wants to tackle a TAS of this thing, I would recommend testing many of the possibly relevant tricks (regarding ammunition/health/farming consequences and requirements, time costs and gains depending on what combination of tricks are used, etc.) and/or making some test-TAS before starting a serious TAS of this.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
