To write what? That people who behave poorly might not receive the nicest responses from site staff? I thought that was implied in any community.
I have to disagree with that. If someone sends a private message to a staff member, it is not appropriate for that staff member to throw insults back, especially when the original message had no such things. It doesn't matter who the person is who sent the message. This is basic diplomacy.
If the primary administrator is sent a formal complaint about a staff member, dismissing it with "he wasn't doing staff duty" and then leaking it to the member in question (who then proceeds to send a somewhat mocking message about it to me), and then ignoring further messages (which were completely formal and polite) is not appropriate behavior, no matter who the complainant is.
Why is it so unreasonable to ask for a bit more of diplomacy and professionalism from high-ranking staff members?
your PROBLEM is clear, but the exact situation is unclear because we don't understand the context, so this topic is going nowhere because you're being stubborn about it for some reason.
Let's say, for example, you originally posted a nice post in like a wrong topic, and got a nasty admin reply. That wouldn't be ok, and you'd be justifiably angry about it.
But let's say you derailed a thread with an argument, or maybe used an example that was bad, and then got a nasty admin reply. That would completely changed the whole situation.
We literally have nothing to talk about because we don't know who did what, or why it happened, or who the hell you were even talking to. How is the problem supposed to be resolved if we don't fully understand the situation?
I mean seriously, when like 5 people are telling you to explain the context, it's probably a little bit more then 'oh, they want me to badmouth this person.'
So let me be.
As blunt.
As possible.
Post the context so we can understand who did what, and how to fix the problem.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
In other words, yes, there might have been improper treatment.
Thank you for acknowledging that. And I am saying that completely honestly and sincerely; this isn't sarcasm or anything like that.
But when the entire grounds for it are completely ignored, this becomes talking to one's reflection in the mirror, where every absurd one says is being agreed upon by all means. I call that ignorance and keep thinking that ignorance is slavery.
I know I have not always behaved in the best possible ways. Do I deserve a cold shoulder from some people here (including many staff members) for my past behavior? Probably.
But I really think that a line is crossed when that "cold shoulder" becomes outright hostile behavior and insults. I really think that some standards of behavior ought to be expected from site staff, even when dealing with a person they might not like.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
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Warp, as long as all we have to go for is "a staff member insulted me", there is very little we can talk about. What kind of staff member? Is it a publisher, a judge, a forum moderator? What words or sentences did he/she write specifically? What is the context of this PM conversation? What was it about, how did it start, etc.? I'm fine if you at least bring out a name, because then we can at least tell where to start.
As long as we do not get these answers, there is not much we can do here. Until then, this topic is useless.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I am willing to agree with you --in general-- that when you approach someone, they shouldn't respond with insults. --In general.-- In specific, if the person who is addressing me has repeatedly been negative, or condescending, or dismissive, or insulting, and is now complaining that someone is being mean to them, I am likely to tell that person --in specific-- to grow a pair.
In the situation you are describing, let me just be absolutely clear that I have the chain of events down:
1) A staff member, not acting in a staff capacity, says something that you take offense to.
2) You reach out to the site's primary administrator (who shall remain nameless), who tells you to stuff it, because that person wasn't acting in a staff capacity.
3) The site's primary administrator --has a conversation with the person you are complaining about, about their actions and your own-- and you are getting upset about this. I've come across this before, where people seem to believe that other people shouldn't have conversations about things that have happened, and I find the issue laughable at best. Of course people are going to talk about things. You did a thing, someone else passed that information along. That happens. Live with it. There is nothing objectionable about this act.
4) You received a taunting message from the staff member whose action you found objectionable in the first place. I would agree that this is questionable behaviour, and the sort of thing that should be brought to a moderator or higher, as something that needs moderating.
5) You continued to complain to the original primary administrator, who has dismissed you previously, in what you call "formal and polite", and that person has ignored you. Which you find objectionable. Now, under normal circumstances, I /might/ agree with you. But, as you may be aware, it is the end of December. A time commonly referred to (in many circles) as Christmastime. A time where people spend most of their waking hours with friends and family, celebrating the thing that happens in a few hours: the new year. I would posit that people (including the site's primary adminstrator) are busy, and likely aren't spending too much time reading forum posts and wanting to deal with quibbles on an internet forum. There are much more important things to be doing.
6) Again, you return to asking for professionalism and diplomacy, but you seem to be ignoring the professionalism and diplomacy you are receiving in this very thread by site moderators and staff, while trying to figure out how to start handling your very real and important issue.
As has been asked several times above, and immediately above by Mothrayas specifically, please give us something to start with, instead of continuing this thread with vague hintings at details.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
In other words, yes, there might have been improper treatment.
Thank you for acknowledging that. And I am saying that completely honestly and sincerely; this isn't sarcasm or anything like that.
I did not acknowledge anything. I stated that possibility exists, as abstractly as possible.
Warp wrote:
But when the entire grounds for it are completely ignored, this becomes talking to one's reflection in the mirror, where every absurd one says is being agreed upon by all means. I call that ignorance and keep thinking that ignorance is slavery.
I know I have not always behaved in the best possible ways. Do I deserve a cold shoulder from some people here (including many staff members) for my past behavior? Probably.
But I really think that a line is crossed when that "cold shoulder" becomes outright hostile behavior and insults. I really think that some standards of behavior ought to be expected from site staff, even when dealing with a person they might not like.
Ignorance is slavery. You're not going to change or improve, the thread is pointless.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I am willing to agree with you --in general-- that when you approach someone, they shouldn't respond with insults. --In general.--
Thank you. That's all I'm asking.
In the situation you are describing, let me just be absolutely clear that I have the chain of events down:
Yes, that is about what happened. Although:
5) You continued to complain to the original primary administrator, who has dismissed you previously, in what you call "formal and polite", and that person has ignored you.
My subsequent message to him was not as much as a complaint, but a plea to continue the conversation in private. I argued why I think a certain degree of diplomacy ought to be expected from site staff when they are acting within the site (even if they aren't "on duty"), in a very similar manner as I did in my original post, and that I don't think it's an unreasonable request that this would be more official policy.
I believe that he did read my message (because, AFAIK, messages get moved from the "outbox" to the "sent box" when the recipient reads them), and I waited for many days for a response.
Given this, and the fact that in his last message he expressly said he preferred a public discussion, I decided to do that.
6) Again, you return to asking for professionalism and diplomacy, but you seem to be ignoring the professionalism and diplomacy you are receiving in this very thread by site moderators and staff, while trying to figure out how to start handling your very real and important issue.
I don't understand why you think that. Some of the responses have been quite dismissive (and with a clear tone of "you deserve that kind of treatment"). Others are asking me to reveal the person in question and the contents of the original conversation (which I don't think is quite relevant, because my complaint was not about his opinions, but about his insults and hostile behavior.)
As has been asked several times above, and immediately above by Mothrayas specifically, please give us something to start with, instead of continuing this thread with vague hintings at details.
I honestly don't think it's necessary to start revealing the contents of private conversations, or who the person was. The list of my main points which you described above was pretty much it.
I'm not asking for this particular instance to have consequences. I'm just asking for a general revision of site policy with regards to this kind of thing in general.
In other words, yes, there might have been improper treatment.
Thank you for acknowledging that. And I am saying that completely honestly and sincerely; this isn't sarcasm or anything like that.
I did not acknowledge anything. I stated that possibility exists, as abstractly as possible.
Ignorance is slavery. You're not going to change or improve, the thread is pointless.
For a moment I honestly thought that you were willing to have an actual conversation.
I honestly don't think it's necessary to start revealing the contents of private conversations, or who the person was. The list of my main points which you described above was pretty much it.
"Pretty much it" does not describe the specifics of the situation, nor allow any sort of actual discussion of the events that transpired. It's impossible to establish precedent on hand-wavy ignorance of hard facts. Because you continue to refuse to provide any concrete information, I am making this my final post in this thread, unless moderation is needed.
Warp wrote:
I'm not asking for this particular instance to have consequences. I'm just asking for a general revision of site policy with regards to this kind of thing in general.
You're asking for consequences in the form of site policy, based on circumstantial nothing and general displeasure. That isn't likely to happen.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
Others are asking me to reveal the person in question and the contents of the original conversation (which I don't think is quite relevant, because my complaint was not about his opinions, but about his insults and hostile behavior.)
I am not asking for content of the conversation. I am asking about context. How did things come to this stage, and such. I believe these are very relevant to the current discussion. Insults do not breed out of nowhere. What exactly is the matter at hand (what sort of insults, what sorts of hostile behavior) is, I believe, very relevant to the current discussion as well.
And again, without as much as a name, and with no context, there is very little anyone can do. What do you aim to achieve with the extremely scarce amount of information you have provided?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Warp, if I may, I'd like to say something on this topic.
Once I was promoted to site staff, I did in fact change my attitude greatly from how it used to be. I could even claim that I'm an example that disproves your original post. I'm well aware that I represent the site, now. I'm well aware that I need to be on better behavior at all times. I'm well aware that there are people that disagree with me being where I am. And I am still working to correct all of this. I want nothing more than to help out the site in any way I can. Have I made mistakes? Absolutely. I'm human. We all are. I apologize for making mistakes, in fact. I know that's not enough, which is why I'm also working on my behavior every day.
The thread feels weird because you seem to be implying that disrespect is an actual site policy, when the reality is that you may or may not have had one isolated incident with one member of the team, but since you refuse to disrespect their privacy by not posting salient information then we'll never know what actually happened. I think you might have misinterpreted the mod's intentions. I seriously doubt anyone on the team would just PM you insults unprompted. There could be some further context to this. Maybe it was prompted by your behavior in a public thread? Even you admit you're problematic of a poster at times, it wouldn't be unlikely.
Are we, as a team, perfect? No. Have we treated people with disrespect? I'm sure we have. We all have our own flaws, for sure. But the point I'm trying to make here is that for someone to logically bring up an argument that we, as a moderation team, are being too hostile towards people, then there has to be accurate evidence for it. If you were truly trying to be reasonable and they kept insulting you, then sure, you have a point here. But that point is that one member of the team needs to treat you better specifically, not that we're all treating everyone bad. This isn't an issue of site policy being wrong, this is an isolated incident, someone acting on their own in one particular case. We're not all like this all the time. Your problem is with the person you were supposedly PMing. It's not the forum's problem with the entire staff, which is what you seem to want it to be.
Warp, allow me to be blunt: I don't think the mod team is the problem here. I think you're the one who's contributing more to your problem than any of us are. If you change your attitude and apologize for your actions, both past and present, I'm entirely certain you'll find that people will treat you better. If you stop accusing us of these things, if you stop calling us assholes and dictators and weak-minded idiots, if you start gaining self-awareness and figure out that you might be the reason you're not being treated the way you want, then you'll have a much better time here.
For example, there's your comment to me from July, that I brought up earlier in the thread:
Warp wrote:
Congratulations Samsara, you turned a thread made in remembrance of a great person into a pile of trash by acting like a complete asshole. I hope you are happy about yourself and your perceived higher moral ground.
This is something you said, Warp. This is something you said to me in a thread where I was trying to stay reasonable and respectful toward you the entire time while letting you know that you, yourself were doing something disrespectful, something that could have put off a lot of people. And then you turn it around on me, as if I were the problem all along for trying to keep things on-topic and respectful. That's something you did, and yet you claim you're not the one disrespecting anyone.
This is just a single example. I could easily provide more, and I'm sure quite a few others can as well. If you keep acting like this, then we can't take this thread seriously. It's the pot calling the kettle black: Someone with a history of aggressive, hostile comments toward other users accusing the mod team of making aggressive, hostile comments toward them. You even admit that your behavior isn't the best. So why not change it? Why not make the effort to turn yourself around and understand people? I was able to do it, and while I may not be completely turned around yet, I'm certainly much better than I used to be. Like I said, maybe if you do work to improve yourself, you'll start seeing this topic differently. But if not, at least wait until you have other examples, specifically public ones.
One person does not speak for the rest of the team. As a team, we speak for the site, but as individuals, we speak for ourselves. For anyone else reading this, if you feel like we're being unreasonable as a mod team, please PM the person in particular about it and bring it up in a respectful manner to them, and we will respond in kind and most likely apologize, or at least respectfully explain our decision so we can come to a mutual understanding.
Now I need to stop re-writing this post, as it's been literally 4 hours since I started.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
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Warp wrote:
For a moment I honestly thought that you were willing to have an actual conversation.
I was thinking that about you all that time, repeatedly posting things that I consider important o ponder, and getting nothing on that regard. I state that I for example am always ready to discuss my reasons and check how solid they are, and if they are, it will be revealed. You don't seem to stand that approach, because you do not discuss what is said to you, you cherry pick things that have uncertain importance and only discuss them in a way that helps you repeat all you've already said. Your views do not evolve at all during all these years, and that's the main problem IMO.
Why I said that there is a possibility? Because if you try to analyze the actual event, there might be someone's fault, and there might be not. You never know if you don't ponder, abstract and analyze. But even if you do, you should have courage to acknowledge fully what you find out. The same applies to me, of whoever else.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I agree with both Samsara and Mothy on this.
As Samsara has said, it starts with you. Improving yourself and your problems can benefit not only you, but everyone else as well. Yeah, insults are wrong, regardless of who does it. Another thing to add is that Ignorance only begets more ignorance. If you show and display ignorance of your wrongdoings unto others, then others will do the same unto you. It's that simple.
Like Mothy also said, without the evidence or context of what ACTUALLY happened, who's to say if there is any truth to what the complaint or issue is. We can't strive for a better solution if there is absolutely NOTHING to go on! We aren't trying to be each other's enemies, which is why we are asking for the exact context of what really happened in the PM. We can't do anything otherwise and as it currently stands, this thread is pointless. It's point will then have meaning once we can get info to what happened so we can work for a better and positive solution for everyone.
The thread feels weird because you seem to be implying that disrespect is an actual site policy
I didn't mean it like that. My main issue is about how my complaint was handled by the administration. The complaint was dismissed on the grounds that the staff member in question was not doing staff duty in our PM conversation. This implies a certain policy (given that it comes from the primary administrator who, for all I know, is the person with the most authority in terms of site management.) I disagree with that implied policy (and I explained in my original post why.) I don't think that what staff members do within the site should be simply ignored and shoved aside, because they represent the site, even if they are not "doing staff duty".
when the reality is that you may or may not have had one isolated incident with one member of the team
Yes, it was an isolated incident with one single staff member. My intent was not to imply that all staff members are like that. The major problem I am having with this is what I explained above.
but since you refuse to disrespect their privacy by not posting salient information then we'll never know what actually happened. I think you might have misinterpreted the mod's intentions. I seriously doubt anyone on the team would just PM you insults unprompted.
I described in another post what happened: I sent this staff member a PM making a request about a conversation thread. His response was very hostile and contained swearwords and insults (such as "f**ing" and "idiot"). My message did not contain any insults nor any such hostility.
As said, the actual topic of the conversation is not what I'm having the problem with. It's that hostile attitude and insults, and especially the fact that they were completely dismissed by the site management.
There could be some further context to this. Maybe it was prompted by your behavior in a public thread? Even you admit you're problematic of a poster at times, it wouldn't be unlikely.
It was prompted by a public thread, but the insults were uncalled for. I did not insult him, nor ask for anything unreasonable.
But again, I'm not so much bothered by the insults themselves (if anybody, I know what it is to lose one's temper and say nasty things), but the subsequent attitude both from him (continual of hostile attitude) and the primary administrator (pretty much shrugging the whole thing, and then ignoring my subsequent message.)
This isn't an issue of site policy being wrong, this is an isolated incident, someone acting on their own in one particular case. We're not all like this all the time. Your problem is with the person you were supposedly PMing. It's not the forum's problem with the entire staff, which is what you seem to want it to be.
The site policy may be silent about the behavior of staff members when they are not "on duty" (even if they are acting within the site), but I think that shouldn't be so, and is precisely why I made this thread. I think the position should come with even a modicum of responsibility.
I'm not asking for staff members to treat every visitor like they were kings. Just a minimum amount of respect and diplomacy. And for complaints to likewise be treated with a bit more diplomacy (even a simple apology and something like "I will talk to him" would have sufficed.)
For example, there's your comment to me from July, that I brought up earlier in the thread:
Warp wrote:
Congratulations Samsara, you turned a thread made in remembrance of a great person into a pile of trash by acting like a complete asshole. I hope you are happy about yourself and your perceived higher moral ground.
This is something you said, Warp. This is something you said to me in a thread where I was trying to stay reasonable and respectful toward you the entire time while letting you know that you, yourself were doing something disrespectful, something that could have put off a lot of people. And then you turn it around on me, as if I were the problem all along for trying to keep things on-topic and respectful. That's something you did, and yet you claim you're not the one disrespecting anyone.
Because you are being reasonable and actually having a conversation, I really respect that.
I regret having said that to you. It was wrong, and I apologize for it. I still do not fully agree with what you said in that thread, but my response was completely inappropriate, and could have been worded much, much more respectfully.
I sometimes let my feelings overcome my rationale, and say things in the heat of the moment, but that's not an excuse.
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Warp wrote:
I did not insult him, nor ask for anything unreasonable.
How do you know that for sure?
Warp wrote:
Just a minimum amount of respect and diplomacy.
So you say that there isn't even a minimum amount of those. Okay. Do we need more of this?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I’m siding with Warp, slightly.
When was the last time you saw an administrator post in the forum? This site’s administration has become extremely non-caring and oblivious to the community, and the site has gone to shit as a result, quite obviously. Having said that, Warp, you’re either an idiot or are trolling if you think you’re in the right when ignoring everyone who’s asking for more information, or replying with “no more information is necessary”.
I’ve written complains to Adelikat earlier this year, and as far as I can tell, was completely ignored. Despite what people here might think, I have years of moderating/managing multiple different forums/groups under my belt and know to act completely different towards people when I’m in such a role. Just to say that I’m not just whining about the staff, I’ve spent the past 11 years of my life 24/7 reading/moderating forums, I know how these things go.
I must say I side with Warp on this (replace references to you, Warp, with "you" or resp. pronouns to not patronize you).
I understand that there's a certain circlejerk going around how "Warp derails any thread", "Oh it's Warp again, prepare for the trainwreck" (not actual quotes) and such, but I don't think it bodes well for any community to mistreat its long-term members like this (as referenced prior).
On the contrary, I think Warp generally conducts himself rather well, considering certain other users (Coldstardust and that guy whose name I forgot who posted porn in some submission thread (yes, I argued against his permanent ban, I have sinced changed my view given the history of that member!) come to mind) that plague this community from time to time (aside from spambots, those are a hopeless case). It might be my standards have become too low, maybe my views are twisted or information incomplete (or any combination), but I like to think I get the gist of this (if not, correct and give examples) and I also think that Warp is being held to unusually high standards in this regard with an unusual, but firm, opposition often taking position against anything he posts, just for the sake of it.
As for how staff members ought to behave themselves: While this is no legal institution that can actually impart and enforce any laws beyond the scope of this site on its members (like it sounds when one mentions an "official role"), there's a reason that this site actually exists and that we can write text into this textbox and send it to others to read:
The fact that we are similar-minded and share a common interest in video games/art and science (the line becomes blurry) and related activities. There'll of course always be a certain group of members that is more closely affiliated with the workings behind this site and community (be it through active involvement in technical contributions or other long-term following, the "core community") and these are often put into administrative positions (or "higher rank", even if unintentionally by the amount of posts) and are understood to be some kind of authority/representation of community (health/conduct).
If there's little integrity in that group this site might as well cease to exist, because those that compose that authoritative group (and by definition these appear often to other members and contribute disproportionately often) are being taken as measure for the quality of the community as a hole (justifiably or not) and the community will be judged by those indicators.
So yes, I think one can hold staff members to a higher standard, even when "outside the official role" (which is hardly distinguishable from "official role"), than relative newcomers or outsiders, for the good of the purpose of this site and its (core) members itself (also because new members are to be welcomed and not needlessly deterred)!
In the individual case of circlejerk-y opposition (like it seems to me it is here) all you're doing is taking away a source of leisure for that particular member: Yet the very reason to provide this leisure is why this site was founded. If Warp didn't care he'd simply go away, but he doesn't and I care to write this text. (As it sometimes turns out, some people's views are wholly incompatible with those of the rest of the group, which leads to their exclusion (or worse). But I believe this to not be the case here and we don't need to turn into an echo chamber or the sort.)
On the topic of the "Giants" thread specifically I also take Warp's stance: I'd rather see an actually interesting topic rather than some fantasy that stands to fall apart at its seams whenever one examines it closer (assuming it wasn't ironic, hello Planet X). While Warp hasn't been the most amicable at times, I see that he places value in getting others to see that there are other much more tangible (and fascinating) topics rooted in hard science (this term is being thrown around casually a lot ("science vs X"), much to its demise) and I see this (even though it might not sound like it all the time) as well-intentioned, even though conveying this properly might be an exercise in futility.
OTOH this was the off-topic forum and as long as general guidelines are being followed even outlandish topics (within reason) ought to be allowed and tolerated and there comes a point where the bloating of that thread for the sake of pointing out flaws in its plausibility or utility ought to be stopped or taken to private chat or a separate thread.
I wish that we could make this case more about things that we care about in this community instead of about people/gossip. Whether the complete (and truthful) reasoning behind this controversy will be revealed is up to those directly involved, but I wish it will be; maybe it can make a change.
All syllogisms have three parts, therefore this is not a syllogism.
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Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
ALAKTORN wrote:
I’m siding with Warp, slightly.
When was the last time you saw an administrator post in the forum? This site’s administration has become extremely non-caring and oblivious to the community, and the site has gone to shit as a result, quite obviously. Having said that, Warp, you’re either an idiot or are trolling if you think you’re in the right when ignoring everyone who’s asking for more information, or replying with “no more information is necessary”.
I’ve written complains to Adelikat earlier this year, and as far as I can tell, was completely ignored. Despite what people here might think, I have years of moderating/managing multiple different forums/groups under my belt and know to act completely different towards people when I’m in such a role. Just to say that I’m not just whining about the staff, I’ve spent the past 11 years of my life 24/7 reading/moderating forums, I know how these things go.
So, your complaints about the site staff being non-caring and "oblivious" to the community are entirely based on the (in)action of one person (adelikat)?
To be honest, I'm not really sure why everyone is always expecting adelikat to respond to everyone's small issues or complaints. adelikat is generally pretty busy with many things, including keeping the site up running and especially working on BizHawk development. I'm not surprised he wouldn't respond to these sort of messages, he clearly has better things to do in this time rather than get involved with people having issues with each other or with staffers on forums. He shouldn't be needing to 'babysit' members on this forum, so to speak.
Besides, we have plenty of moderation staff that are always active and into community management. Me, Invariel, or Samsara for instance. As a forum administrator, I am de facto in charge of the moderation staff, so if you have an issue with any moderator, then try contacting me instead of adelikat. If there is a judge or publisher you have an issue with, then contact the respective senior judge/publisher. The site administrators are busy people, so I can understand quite well why they will not always be able to respond to individual people's issues. So next time, try contacting other staff members, those that actually are in charge of, or are involved with community management, instead of just the #1 top admin.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I'm going to jump in alongside ALAKTORN and RGamma and say that I'm siding with Warp-- with major qualifications.
While Warp has framed this in terms of responsibilities (of the site's staff and admin) I see it as more about the users' expectations toward each other.
Warp had a problem with one of the site's staff. I don't think it matters that they were part of the staff. I've been a part of many forums with abysmal and hostile staff.
Warp then privately contacted a site admin to complain about the staff member's behavior. The admin dismissed the complaint. Again, I don't think that matters because we have no expectation that the admin should take any given complaint seriously.
The admin then forwarded information about the PM to the staff member in question. This is where I think Warp's privacy was violated. When we send PMs to one another-- be it to regular users, staff, or admins-- we have an expectation that those conversations will be kept private. This is one of those bedrock principles that I think any healthy forum is implicitly founded upon. To be fair, I think there is some grey area here. For example, I think it is within the PM recipient's discretion to mention that they received a PM from a specific user without discussing the content. I also think it's fair to post the content of a PM if it directly contradicts a certain narrative (e.g., the staff and/or admin in this case could post their PMs if it directly refutes Warp's assertion that he was civil throughout the conversations). Above all else, however, PMs should remain the business of their two parties unless it becomes absolutely necessary to disclose their contents. To that extent, I agree with Warp and am troubled by what he says if it is true.
By the way, Warp, when someone asks you to clarify something, never tell people that you were already clear enough the first time. I have dealt with people who do that and it is incredibly aggravating. Even if you simply quote a relevant portion of your original post, it goes a long way toward structuring the discussion and specifies whether you are bothered that the site's staff insulted you, that the admin ignored you, or that the admin shared your PM. Even this thread's title, "Site staff attitudes", implies that you're most troubled by the way the staff treated you. If I am right and you are most bothered by the PM sharing, a better title would be something like "Site admin sharing private messages". By being specific in your complaint, especially when asked for clarification, you keep the discussion on-topic and avoid 40 posts that essentially boil down to, "What is Warp really complaining about here?"
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I don't want to get into most of the points here, but I guess at least have to respond to a few things
1) I did not forward a private message, but I did reveal some details to feos. Warp was contacting me via PM at the same time as feos was talking to me about warp on IRC. I had no desire to get in the middle of that, but I did reveal some information.
I should have not have done this. And I apologize
2) Warp, I didn't ignore you. I responded, in a reasonably timely manner. Not as reasonable as you wanted but I was at work, doing non-work things, that I shouldn't have been doing anyway. You saw that I read your post and felt ignored. But I do skim forum PMs that come my way to make sure the world isn't on fire. If it isn't an emergency (this was not), I'll get to it when I can. How many forum PMs did I get within the course of a workshift about how I was ignoring you?
I responded to you, and you didn't like what I said and proceeded to argue. I owe you a response, but I don't feel like I owe you a debate. What I said initially was sufficient. To characterize all of this as ignoring you, is unfair, in my opinion.
So, your complaints about the site staff being non-caring and "oblivious" to the community are entirely based on the (in)action of one person (adelikat)?
You’re free to disagree with what I’ve said, but you have no reason to spew this bullshit. Never have I said nor inferred that in my post, stop putting words in my mouth.
Joined: 4/17/2010
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Bobo the King wrote:
IThe admin then forwarded information about the PM to the staff member in question. This is where I think Warp's privacy was violated. When we send PMs to one another-- be it to regular users, staff, or admins-- we have an expectation that those conversations will be kept private.
Let's see.
Imagine there's some post by, say Spikestuff, that was attacking, say, Scrimpy. Scrimpy dislikes that attack, sends Nach a PM telling this was a bad act by Spike. Nach contacts Spike in order to punish him.
- Hey Spike, I need to punish you for something.
- For what?
- I can't tell you, or someone's privacy will be violated.
-
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
IThe admin then forwarded information about the PM to the staff member in question. This is where I think Warp's privacy was violated. When we send PMs to one another-- be it to regular users, staff, or admins-- we have an expectation that those conversations will be kept private.
Let's see.
Imagine there's some post by, say Spikestuff, that was attacking, say, Scrimpy. Scrimpy dislikes that attack, sends Nach a PM telling this was a bad act by Spike. Nach contacts Spike in order to punish him.
- Hey Spike, I need to punish you for something.
- For what?
- I can't tell you, or someone's privacy will be violated.
-
Aside from the fact that I already mentioned that there is a gray area here, your hypothetical scenario is completely out of line with what we've been told by Warp.
Adelikat apologized, I'm satisfied, and I think this thread has effectively run its course.
And, on that note, this discussion has run its course.
In the future, if someone has an issue with a staff member, contact the lead member of that branch of staff, and not adelikat directly.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
