(Link to video)
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Note: A section of the final level has a copyrighted song playing during it, Attack on Sail Barge, that needs to be either muted or replaced to avoid a copyright claim.

Boy, oh boy! Super Star Wars! Notable as being some of the laggiest games in existence, this is probably the easiest one to TAS. IE, it's still really difficult to optimize.
The first thing that should be addressed is the use of Easy difficulty. Changing the difficulty reduces enemy HP and how many enemies spawn. It does NOT change anything else. So Easy mode is chosen for speed purposes.

Tricks and Glitches

Slide Cancelling

Pretty easy trick. Attack right when a slide is about to end, and you can slide immediately afterwards. Saves frames over the course of the run.

Slide Boosting

Slide boosting is basically using objects or enemies to boost you forward a great distance. This can be done either with taking damage, or getting smooshed behind an enemy or object to get the game to eject you. This can be used to clip through walls, as well.

Freeze Jumping

The biggest glitch in the run, whenever Luke uses his Freeze force move in midair, there will be a period of time where he can then jump again. This is used in every Luke level to skip platforms, and sometimes entire levels.

Luck Manipulation

Luck manipulation in this game is a fickle mistress, but it is possible via pressing different buttons to get different results. This can be used to despawn enemies, change enemy attacking patterns, and most importantly to manipulate stuff like Thermal Detonators from enemies.

Level by Level comments

Jabba Palace Approach

Lots of luck manipulation to reduce objects onscreen/drive in a straight line

Jabba Palace Approach II

First real level. Leia is chosen because she has a very powerful charge move and is the second fastest next to Luke. I manipulated a Thermal Detonator before the boss, and manipulated the boss to move away from Leia's shots so he'll take more damage.

Jabba's Dance Hall

Very difficult level to optimize, due to the sheer amount of lag and luck manipulation needed. I manipulated as many Thermal Detonators as possible here. The boss is similar to the first boss in that I make it move away from Leia's shots for extra damage.

Jabba's Palace

First Luke level. Frogs are used to clip through a wall to skip the lower section of the level. After that it's freeze jumps and manipulating the frog boss to not spawn as many projectiles to kill it faster.

Rancor Pit

Chewbacca is used over Luke because his spin attack can pierce below him, and also because his gun is very effective against the area boss. The Rancor itself is very tricky to finish quickly, so I manipulate 2 extra Thermal Detonators from the rocks it spawns.

Attack on Sail Barge

Freeze Jumps lets me skip straight to boss, which makes up for how little damage Luke does to it.

Inside Sail Barge

Leia may look different (and sexier), but the only real difference is that she can double jump. Pretty standard level.

Speeder Chase

I manipulate all of the Storm Troopers to the side so I can instantly destroy them by hitting them against the forest wall.

Ewok Village A

Very, very laggy level. I roll a certain distance away from the boss area to skip it.

Ewok Village B

A bit easier then the last level. I use a passing Stormtrooper to skip a few jumps, and boost off a mantis to skip this boss as well.

Endor

Very precise freeze jumps let me skip the entire level and go straight to the boss.

Falcon Shooting Stage

Another 3D shooter stage. What fun.

Reactor

Leia is used over Han because she can clip through a wall and save time. Sorry Han. The boss is destroyed by the stars powerup.

Inside Death Star

Standard stage for the most part. I skip the twin mecha boss by causing lag killing an enemy.

Falcon Shooting Stage II

I kill enemies nearby me so I can pick up the item they drop and reduce lag.

Tower

Towards the end I trigger the end of the level by getting high enough to hit it. Skips a floor of the level.

Tower Entrance-Vader-

I use a spike ball to clip through the staircase and go directly to Vader. Vader himself is very easy thanks to the Force Saber.

Emperor's Chamber

I manipulate the Emperor to not move from his starting position, which lets me destroy him.

Death Star Destruction

5 minute scroller hooray~

Q/A

Q: How much input was done by each author?
A: I did the majority of the input, while Tompa did a few improvements, in particular the beginning of the reactor and a bit in the rancor pit. He didn't want credit though, so it's just me I guess.
Q: Easy Mode is for scrub noobs!
A: Fine, do a run in the other difficulty modes and see how much fun you have. Easy Mode is the fastest mode there is, so I chose that.
Q: The last 5 minutes are booooooooooooorinnnnnnnnng
A: I like to view the last five minutes as an accumulation of the previous 2 games. This is the final SSW game, so an epic spaceship thingy is perfect for that.
Q: Is this optimized?
A: I'd say it's as good as it's going to get for right now. These games are extremely laggy and random, and I did the best I could. Those 138,000 rerecords aren't lying, it's really that difficult to optimize this game.

Thanks

Thanks to Exonym, Samsara, Spikestuff, xy2, Mothrayas, and scrimpy. You all know why, you sexy ducks.
Special thanks to Tompa for helping optimize the earlier section of the run.

Suggested Screenshots

Up to you guys.
Tompa: Judge judge!
Tompa: Alrighty. First off: This is a fast-paced TAS which shows off a lot of neat moves and tricks. Optimising it is very struggling because of the high amount of lag as well as randomness.
Second off: The difficulty discussion. Easy was picked here because it would make a faster run through the use of more damage boosts, more tricks and glitches, slightly faster boss fights and shorten some levels. Two such levels are the Speeder Chase, where you have to kill twice as many enemies (20 compared to 10) in Jedi mode before you can finish the level, and the Falcon Shooting Stage, 28 Ties VS 12. Neither one of these make the run more enjoyable or more challenging, it only makes it longer. The Guidelines are recommendations in order to make a more entertaining run. In my eyes, Easy mode is the choice to use to accomplish this for the case of this run.
Accepting.
feos: Pub.

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Posted: 9/9/2015 12:24 AM
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Invariel
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The answer was given repeatedly in this thread, but I will quote it for posterity, since you refuse to look elsewhere:
feos wrote:
feos: The research before making this run seems to be done very poorly. Since 2007 there exists a WIP that is 532 frame faster in Level 1 + Boss. And that WIP was not even optimized to maximum. Since 2009 there exists a real-time run that uses quite some tricks that prove this TAS's sub-optimality. The main thing is skipping the Level 4 Boss (saves ~13 seconds) by scrolling the camera up, which does not let him spawn. Also, standing right before the mini-boss of that level, one can kill him a second faster than in this TAS. This does not come from the difficulty difference, since that only adds 1-2 HP to bosses. The game speed isn't different in a European version, used by that RTS. I also can't agree with the difficulty chosen here, because it does not affect the gameplay, it only increases the player's damage. That means you can do much more damage boosts in an Easy run, not losing actual gameplay. Rejecting the run, and hoping more effort is put in a TAS of such a complicated game, ideally several people would work on it, due to heavy luck manipulation required.
The bolded part is relevant to the discussion (that shouldn't be happening because multiple judges have weighed in on the subject).
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Posted: 9/9/2015 12:37 AM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Tangent wrote:
The question was raised about why a lower difficulty was chosen, at least one seems to be the complete opposite of a valid reason for choosing a lower difficulty in a ton of other games.
1) A harder difficulty is slower 2) A harder difficulty is less entertaining 3) A harder difficulty is harder to TAS How much clearer do you want me to be? Would you like me to write a thesis on the pros and cons of each difficulty while I'm at it?
I'd like you to explain why those are appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for this game, but not appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for other games. --- Invariel, I addressed that in the very first post I made in this thread. To recap: Past remarks are not precedent for future decisions. That point wasn't actually discussed in that thread at all. That run had numerous optimality problems which were clearly the far more deciding factor over difficulty choice.
Posted: 9/9/2015 2:24 AM
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arandomgameTASer
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Tangent wrote:
I'd like you to explain why those are appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for this game, but not appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for other games.
I don't give a crap about other games, that's for a different topic. All I told you was why I chose the difficulty for this game in particular.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Posted: 9/9/2015 6:43 AM
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phunqsauce
Joined: 6/5/2005
Posts: 139
Awesome display of platforming, enemy despawning and skipping. Gotta love how mode 7 makes the Death Star look like it is made out of legos. Yes vote! Can't wait for ESB!
I like stuff...
Posted: 9/9/2015 2:47 PM
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Yoni_Arousement
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Regarding the difficulty argument, this game comes to mind.
I like Doraemon
Posted: 9/9/2015 3:07 PM
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Archanfel
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I would like to apologize to arandomgameTASer that you doomed suffer to communicate with Tangent about difficulty choice. It supposed to be my personal excruciation, not yours. Great run btw.
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Posted: 9/9/2015 3:10 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Re: difficult, if the run is good enough for Moons, then who cares what difficulty it uses?
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Posted: 9/9/2015 4:03 PM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Tangent wrote:
I'd like you to explain why those are appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for this game, but not appropriate reasons to choose a lower difficulty for other games.
I don't give a crap about other games, that's for a different topic. All I told you was why I chose the difficulty for this game in particular.
Then don't. Why are they valid reasons for this game? Because the run would be harder to make and require more resource (health) management? Yeah, obviously. That's what a harder difficulty means. The boss HP is perfectly understandable and I have no issues with that. Every other reason you've given is exactly why the guidelines say TO use the hardest difficulty, and I don't feel it's appropriate to use them as reasons to avoid it. Like jlun2 asked, where does it end then? It's not even like there haven't been numerous times where runs on a lower difficulty were accepted with the stipulation that a slower run on a harder difficulty would obsolete it either, which is what I'd expect to happen here anyway.
Posted: 9/9/2015 5:08 PM
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GoddessMaria
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...There has been a bit of submissions that were not played on Difficult (or whatever a game's hardest difficulty is called) such as cheetah_7071's Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones, Vykan12's Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon, and the aforementioned The Great Circus Mystery Starring Mickey & Minnie by jaysmad. The only time someone nitpicked about it was during Vykan's Shadow Dragon submission despite the clear explanation as to why he did what he did. I see the same thing going on here too... Let me ask those people this 1 question: Would you want to TAS this game on the Hardest difficulty?
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Posted: 9/9/2015 6:05 PM
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Noxxa
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The spirit behind the difficulty guideline is pretty simple: choose difficulty according to what makes the most interesting run. That's all there is to it. By default, that would be the hardest difficulty because those are obviously more impressive to complete, but it definitely does not always apply. If raising the difficulty just means that boss battles take more repetitive action and damage-taking speed tricks have to be forgone, then it is definitely justifiable to pick a lower difficulty. I don't know why people are making such a big issue out of this. We get a more interesting run this way, so why force the change?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 9/9/2015 6:39 PM
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jlun2
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Mothrayas wrote:
The spirit behind the difficulty guideline is pretty simple: choose difficulty according to what makes the most interesting run. That's all there is to it. By default, that would be the hardest difficulty because those are obviously more impressive to complete, but it definitely does not always apply. If raising the difficulty just means that boss battles take more repetitive action and damage-taking speed tricks have to be forgone, then it is definitely justifiable to pick a lower difficulty. I don't know why people are making such a big issue out of this. We get a more interesting run this way, so why force the change?
Is there even a hard mode TAS to actually compare, or is this just basing on assumption?
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 9/9/2015 6:46 PM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Mothrayas wrote:
The spirit behind the difficulty guideline is pretty simple: choose difficulty according to what makes the most interesting run. That's all there is to it. By default, that would be the hardest difficulty because those are obviously more impressive to complete, but it definitely does not always apply. If raising the difficulty just means that boss battles take more repetitive action and damage-taking speed tricks have to be forgone, then it is definitely justifiable to pick a lower difficulty. I don't know why people are making such a big issue out of this. We get a more interesting run this way, so why force the change?
What speed tricks would have to be foregone here on a higher difficulty? Only rarely does health dip under half. That doesn't seem to be a limiting factor. And to clarify, I fully expect and have no issue with this being accepted, but I strongly disagree with the reasons given for why a lesser difficulty was chosen (fewer enemies, easier to TAS, faster) and believe that a slower run on a harder difficulty should obsolete this, regardless of speed. I'd also hate to see games on harder difficulties obsoleted because of the reasons given here.
Posted: 9/9/2015 6:56 PM
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Samsara
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Mothrayas wrote:
If raising the difficulty just means that boss battles take more repetitive action and damage-taking speed tricks have to be forgone, then it is definitely justifiable to pick a lower difficulty.
That's exactly what it is. On Brave/Jedi difficulties in all three games, bosses have more HP and you take way more damage, and these are games where it is almost literally impossible to avoid taking damage, especially in a speedrun/TAS setting. Considering there are things like damage boosts and using repeated harm from enemies to zip through walls, a run on Brave or Jedi would likely end up at least a minute slower, if not more, due to possibly not being able to use these tricks.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 9/9/2015 8:42 PM
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arandomgameTASer
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Tangent wrote:
What speed tricks would have to be foregone here on a higher difficulty? Only rarely does health dip under half. That doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.
Sorry I forgot, you're an expert at this game. Jedi mode updates damage taken MAJORLY, so yes it would actually affect the tricks used. That Sail Barge fight? Way slower. The frog skip? Ain't happening. General cool stuff that makes this game fun to watch? Yeah right.
Tangent wrote:
but I strongly disagree with the reasons given for why a lesser difficulty was chosen and believe that a slower run on a harder difficulty should obsolete this, regardless of speed.
Sucks for you.
Archanfel wrote:
Great run btw.
Thank you, loved that Lost Vikings TAS by the way.
Mothrayas wrote:
I don't know why people are making such a big issue out of this. We get a more interesting run this way, so why force the change?
^ I'm not going to comment about the difficulty setting any more, so bugger off if you feel like contesting that point further. Any comments pertaining to actual improvements to the run, or just what you thought, are of course welcome.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Posted: 9/9/2015 8:47 PM
(Edited: 9/9/2015 8:56 PM)
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Weegeechan
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The game is also notoriously laggy with the crazy amount of enemies spawning on the hardest difficulty. I'd rather watch a run on an easier difficulty than watch one that is riddled with lag for the sole purpose of knowing it was harder to complete. Skips and glitches are also always very entertaining so I think it would be a great loss if they weren't included because of the difficulty level that was chosen. Honestly, it would make more sense for Jedi difficulty to be it's own branch rather than being the main difficulty setting. That way there could be that variety that some viewers might want to see. ------------------ EDIT: Sorry arandomgameTASer, I was writing this before you posted above me. I would like to mention this was really entertaining :) It was cool to see multiple characters being used but it was definitely a shame about the long auto-scroller at the end. But it didn't diminish any enjoyment I had so I gave this a yes vote. I hope someone one day does Empire Strikes Back as well!
Posted: 9/9/2015 8:48 PM
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scrimpeh
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Choose the difficulty that makes for the most entertaining run. I can't believe anyone has to deliberate for more than 5 seconds over this. Footnote 1: What difficulty setting is the most entertaining depends on the game and is for the author to determine. Footnote 2: Does easy difficulty make this particular run more entertaining? I don't know, I didn't watch it. That's for the judges to decide.
Posted: 9/9/2015 9:12 PM
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jlun2
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Can someone actually show game play as "evidence" that hard mode severly kills entertainment? Currently, even if this was true, people only saw the normal mode TAS and never the hard mode. If this game had an easy mode and you used it, assuming this TAS didn't exist, I'm sure people would argue "easy is more entertaining" simply due to the lack of comparison. tldr: video of a rough TAS why hard mode is boring or otherwise it's hard to argue about entertainment compared to this.
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 9/9/2015 9:15 PM
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arandomgameTASer
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jlun2 wrote:
Can someone actually show game play as "evidence" that hard mode severly kills entertainment?
Why do you need evidence? I already told you why.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Ok, I guess I poorly explained that. Jedi Mode in the Super Star Wars games are not suitable for TASing because: *They give bosses more HP *You take more damage *more enemies spawn So point #1 means all the bosses are slower, #2 means less cool speed tricks, and #3 means more lag optimization, just for a movie that is virtually identical to the Easy Mode, only slower. So in the interest of entertainment and speed, for this run in particular, I decided that Easy mode is the best option. Obviously the use of hardest difficulty should be different based on the run.
So no, I'm not going to show a demonstration of Jedi mode, because a TAS of Jedi mode is never going to happen. If you want to see the differences just look up a let's play of it or something.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Posted: 9/9/2015 9:56 PM
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Samsara
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jlun2 wrote:
Can someone actually show game play as "evidence" that hard mode severly kills entertainment? Currently, even if this was true, people only saw the normal mode TAS and never the hard mode. If this game had an easy mode and you used it, assuming this TAS didn't exist, I'm sure people would argue "easy is more entertaining" simply due to the lack of comparison.
So you've made it clear that you haven't watched the run (easiest difficulty is used, not normal) or read the thread (people familiar with the game have explained why easiest difficulty is used). Got it. Link to video This video is for The Empire Strikes Back, but all three games in the series share the same changes in difficulty. First death is on Easy, second death is on Jedi. As I've already said before, several tricks in RotJ require taking damage. Health pickups are rare and usually cost more time due to any and all enemies creating around a half second of lag when spawned and killed, and that's not counting extra lag from the item itself dropping. There are health increases, but if I remember correctly they're only active for the current level/life and they don't refill your health when you pick them up, meaning you'd have to manipulate another health pickup just to top off, and even then you'd still probably not have enough health to take damage for the zipping, since you're basically stuck inside enemies for a while before they actually happen, meaning the run loses awesome glitches and at least a minute or two of time. Damage boosting doesn't save nearly enough frames to be worth manipulating and grabbing health pickups, so all enemies would need to be avoided/manipulated out of the way, and over the course of a 20-30 minute game that really adds up. So you either watch an entertaining run with zipping glitches and lots of damage boosting abuse, or you sit through basically the exact same run without those glitches/boosts. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather choose the former.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 9/9/2015 10:06 PM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Samsara wrote:
This video is for The Empire Strikes Back, but all three games in the series share the same changes in difficulty.
More relevant SRotJ comparisons. Second boss easy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHk5JBuR9v8&#t=3m27s Second boss normal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYMrO7EX8cI&#t=10m45s Second boss hard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSV6olPzUvY&#t=8m50s As I said though, health rarely dips even under 50%, so I'm not convinced that it'd totally lock much of anything. Edit: The frog zip on stage 3 for example (and another one shortly after), health doesn't drop under ~80% the whole stage. It certainly wouldn't prevent that.
Posted: 9/9/2015 11:06 PM
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NEVERDOORS
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Tangent wrote:
And to clarify, I fully expect and have no issue with this being accepted, but I strongly disagree with the reasons given for why a lesser difficulty was chosen (fewer enemies, easier to TAS, faster) and believe that a slower run on a harder difficulty should obsolete this, regardless of speed. I'd also hate to see games on harder difficulties obsoleted because of the reasons given here.
lmao mate do you know how absurd this sounds sick TAS. easy yes vote
Posted: 9/10/2015 1:10 AM
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arandomgameTASer
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Tangent wrote:
Samsara wrote:
This video is for The Empire Strikes Back, but all three games in the series share the same changes in difficulty.
More relevant SRotJ comparisons. Second boss easy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHk5JBuR9v8&#t=3m27s Second boss normal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYMrO7EX8cI&#t=10m45s Second boss hard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSV6olPzUvY&#t=8m50s As I said though, health rarely dips even under 50%, so I'm not convinced that it'd totally lock much of anything. Edit: The frog zip on stage 3 for example (and another one shortly after), health doesn't drop under ~80% the whole stage. It certainly wouldn't prevent that.
I don't care how much evidence you present to me, I'm still not going to do a Jedi mode TAS. It took 138,000 rerecords and roughly 6 months to do easy mode, could you imagine how long Jedi mode would take, with additional enemies? Just for an inferior product? No thank you. I've had enough of this meaningless arguing, so from now on I'll just be ignoring any post you make involving difficulty choice. Let me know if you learn how to, what do they say, drop it.
TaylorTotFTW wrote:
sick TAS. easy yes vote
Thank you :)
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Posted: 9/10/2015 1:44 AM
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Tangent
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
arandomgameTASer wrote:
I don't care how much evidence you present to me, I'm still not going to do a Jedi mode TAS.
Okay? Claims were made that appeared to be in error. I showed why I believed them to be in error. Better understanding overall can be nothing but a good thing.
Posted: 9/10/2015 2:39 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Tangent wrote:
arandomgameTASer wrote:
I don't care how much evidence you present to me, I'm still not going to do a Jedi mode TAS.
Okay? Claims were made that appeared to be in error. I showed why I believed them to be in error. Better understanding overall can be nothing but a good thing.
Be careful in your pursuit of better understanding that you do not piss off the people who are working hard to entertain you for no physical reward. Some arguments are not worth having, because the damage done by the argument itself vastly overcomes any benefit the argument could potentially have if resolved to satisfaction.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 9/10/2015 5:06 AM
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electricslide
Joined: 1/27/2014
Posts: 181
I would much prefer a slower run on Jedi.
Would you want to TAS this game on the Hardest difficulty?
We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard
I have played this game on Jedi. Jedi is brutal. That is why I would personally find it more entertaining (and satisfying) to watch someone destroy Jedi.
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