Now, I tried my best to make you all hate me (and it kinda worked) but I removed my comment about "3 hours" working on it, as that time frame was false. I worked for longer than that I started when this was canceled. About 8 hours was put into this (Probably less, I don't do time management).
Possible Improvements:
Well, if you can get pass RNG hell on the final level, 1 frame... and anything I don't know.
Entertainment
What is it? Well, it doesn't exist in this TAS.
Tricks used
NitroGenesis 2nd player Early Start.
Founder Unkown so we'll go with exposure's Death Abuse Exit.
What kind of reputation does that give TASVideos if a more experienced user (who's also a publisher) takes a rookie user's game submission, improves on it, and then submits it exclusively as his own--not even 24 hours after it's been submitted to the Workbench?
If that happened to me, not only would I not come back here again, I would make sure that others would know about it, as well.
This was essentially the biggest worry for me all the time when TASVideos was my site. Not the spirit of friendly cooperation I was looking for.
I can see he tried harder to entertain. Can’t tell the speed differences from just the encodes though.
yuigenron wrote:
1. 2P pause trick (found by NitroGenesis)
By pause trick, transition time in each zone become shorter, and 2P pause trick enable to omit a blank frame by using 2P start button.
However, this trick may have something to do with emulation issues, because Famicom 2P controller has no start button. (And this game is released in Japan only) So, whether this trick is allowed should be discussed IMO.
Oh boy.
yuigenron wrote:
3. Better Bomb Throwing in 99th zone. (found by Sonikkustar)
This improvement probably lost meanings due to New pause trick found by exposure.
2.Closed secret doors (93th and 99th zones int the TAS)
You can make the Closed door appear by throwing bomb to the door's position. New Pause trick omitted this process.
I don’t understand what you mean with that. The TAS still has to throw bombs to make the doors appear. What’s the pause trick?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
The solution is simple. In a frame war, when a bunch of people improve over each other in short time periods, the work can be considered collaborative, since every next movie won't be pushed to its limits without all the previous ones, it becomes more similar to people posting WIPs in a game thread, and once all the tricks are incorporated, there's a final submission, listing all the authors. All are happy.
[2406] NES Kirby's Adventure "game end glitch" by MESHUGGAH, CoolKirby, Masterjun, MUGG, TASeditor & illayaya in 00:35.91
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
3. Better Bomb Throwing in 99th zone. (found by Sonikkustar)
This improvement probably lost meanings due to New pause trick found by exposure.
2.Closed secret doors (93th and 99th zones int the TAS)
You can make the Closed door appear by throwing bomb to the door's position. New Pause trick omitted this process.
I don’t understand what you mean with that. The TAS still has to throw bombs to make the doors appear. What’s the pause trick?
Previous (needs two steps)
1. You need to make the Closed Secret Doors appear by bomb exploding.
2. By bomb exploding again, you can open the door.
New Pause trick
By pausing at the appropriate timing, you can make the doors appear and opened at the same time.
Not the spirit of friendly cooperation I was looking for.
If you ask me, I would love to read some kind of list of contributors with minimal details of other's TAS submission. (sorry, I suck at grammar)
What I mean is similarly like cinema movies' credits roll. Reading and just simply watching the amount of people involved in gathering the knowledge, using it in order to bring a high level of quality... for free for the previous viewers.
I guess everyone would be happy and wouldn't it cost space to include them in the submission text. I rarely see anyone thanking a gamefaq writer for helping how to open a door (A+B+start for hokuto no ken) or using a dumped map for planning.
edit2: and it would probably make others easier to find someone for their own project, like asking SNES Metroid TASer working on disassembly, speeding and helping up the process to collaborate instead of dead threads and mistargeted messages. Not mentioning the "value of contributing", mentioning your name on a wall of text is a magical thing for most of the people.
Or, make fucking long publication links thanks to a huge magnitude of authors like feos' example.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
The sentiment I'm getting from people is that if he had submitted this a week or two later, there'd be no hurt feelings at all? Or if it had been someone more established originally submitting it, it'd be just fine? These seem silly, particularly for a game this short. There's also the issue in the original run that if it DID have a bunch of known improvements and sloppy things like blank trailing input, it should have been rejected to begin with, especially, again, for as short as it is.
I'm not even sure why "maybe someone's feelings might be hurt" are even entering into it though.
This is assuming that he did redo all the input, which given the nature of the game and length, is reasonable to me.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Tangent wrote:
The sentiment I'm getting from people is that if he had submitted this a week or two later, there'd be no hurt feelings at all? Or if it had been someone more established originally submitting it, it'd be just fine? These seem silly, particularly for a game this short.
...
I'm not even sure why "maybe someone's feelings might be hurt" are even entering into it though.
You don't care about peoples' feelings being hurt? That's shocking, coming from you. You've always been so nice and caring and kind to people in the past. It really breaks my heart to see you say that.
Sarcasm aside (as I've run out for the day), why shouldn't it matter? This isn't just some "new TASer" for one thing. exposure is a Nico TASer, and we rarely see Nico TASers show up here, let alone stick around and submit their runs. I don't think the timescale had anything to do with it either: For me at the very least, the most deplorable part is the fact that so little was implemented, and none of the improvement comes from Spikestuff himself, yet in this submission he's taking all the credit. Plus, the "improvement" is most likely an emulation error anyway, meaning that it might not be valid at all.
If exposure was given co-author credit, and really I see no fucking reason why anyone would refuse to do so unless they're a gigantic asshole, then no one would be complaining. As far as anyone's concerned, all of the improvements in this movie are exposure's.
There's also the issue in the original run that if it DID have a bunch of known improvements and sloppy things like blank trailing input, it should have been rejected to begin with, especially, again, for as short as it is.
Again, the "known improvement" is likely an emulation error, and there were no other improvements aside from that. The run wouldn't have been rejected for having blank input at the end, either. Also there's a possible reason for the blank input: Japanese runners usually time to the end of the credits instead of stopping the time at the last action needed to reach the credits. I'm not sure if that's what was done in the first submission, but it's just there as a reason.
Spikestuff wrote:
I should've done what happened to me when it was my early times of TASVideos that was less harsh than what I just pulled.
This isn't really an accurate comparison, though I agree it was much less harsh. What you did here is basically plagiarism, what RachelB did to you was just a straight improvement. This is basically "Hey, this improvement missed something that was in the published run! What a great opportunity for me to take all the credit for it, instead of being someone with a lick of common sense and letting the author know about this improvement!"
But that doesn't matter anyway since the improvement is an emulation error.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
The sentiment I'm getting from people is that if he had submitted this a week or two later, there'd be no hurt feelings at all? Or if it had been someone more established originally submitting it, it'd be just fine? These seem silly, particularly for a game this short.
...
I'm not even sure why "maybe someone's feelings might be hurt" are even entering into it though.
You don't care about peoples' feelings being hurt? That's shocking, coming from you. You've always been so nice and caring and kind to people in the past. It really breaks my heart to see you say that.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Don't touch me, creep.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I'm afraid that's not possible. However Tangent certainly won't cut you.
Also, voted no. Sorry Spikestuff.
"The word tangent comes from the Latin tangere, to touch." -- sincerely, Masterjun
All syllogisms have three parts, therefore this is not a syllogism.
It's not an emulation error, the game is programmed to accept 2P start input, and it works on a toploader last time i checked.
Think of it as a left+right thing.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Left and right, and left+right are buttons you can press on an actual controller.
What’s a toploader?
andypanther wrote:
Pressing start with player 2 should always be allowed for Famicom games, since it's a purely physical limitation, like left+right.
Physical limitation of what, having to dismantle the Famicom and use some kind of eletrical current to give it the pause signal as opposed to pressing 2 buttons on a controller? Yeah sounds about the same to me.
Speaking out of my ass there, I have no idea what 2P pause would even be on a Famicom.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Yeah, left+right is an inaccurate comparison, as it is possible to do it on console with stock controllers (at least for some systems, SNES most importantly) and has been demonstrated to be possible plenty of times.
A better comparison would be the four missing SNES buttons that are used in many of the SNES ACE runs. There is no way to press these on a stock controller, but the console accepts it as valid input. Thus, the question is whether 2P Start on the Famicom is correctly registered as input by the console. If it is, this run is valid; if not, it is an emulation error.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
ALAKTORN wrote:
@Moth: I’m pretty sure after much debate about those ACE runs Nach posted about official SNES mouse/keyboard controllers that could do those inputs?
Yes, but those don't fall under my definition as "stock" controllers, even if they're official.
That's not my point though; controllers (official or not) could send any sort of input to the SNES, including left+right or a missing button, and the SNES would take it as valid input. But I guess it depends on whether you count any sort of input data streamed into the console, or only input data sent by officially licensed controllers for the system.
Regarding official or unofficial controllers: there's a fair amount of both first and third party Famicom accessories, including an official Famicom keyboard, but I don't know how it works in terms of sending input to the Famicom. Might need some looking into.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Technically, the original Famicom's P2 controllers lacked a Start and Select button, due to the microphone in its P2 controller. However, the P2 controller on the AV Famicom (basically the Japanese NES-101 (its model number is HVC-101, and also an official Nintendo product), commonly dubbed the "toploader") does have a Start and Select button. So....it could technically be valid input on the AV Famicom, but not on the original Famicom (in the latter case, the controllers are hardwired into the console).
Did the Famicom and NES work the same way the SNES/N64 did, by essentially making the two NTSC regions incompatible through the physical format of the games? So in that case, you could use P2 start in a Famicom game if you used one of those adapters to play it on an NES. I don't see why this wouldn't be legit, the games accept the input.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Did the Famicom and NES work the same way the SNES/N64 did, by essentially making the two NTSC regions incompatible through the physical format of the games? So in that case, you could use P2 start in a Famicom game if you used one of those adapters to play it on an NES. I don't see why this wouldn't be legit, the games accept the input.
Yes, you could play a Famicom game on a NES with a simple adapter, and then press P2 start. But it's easier than that; the Famicom AV has the same controllers as a NES, but takes Famicom games.
I have a impression that 2P Pause involves emulation errors, not because the game accepts 2P Pause, but because you can omit a blank frame by 2P Pause trick. That "Pressing 1P Start in a frame, and Pressing 2P Start in the next frame" can do Pausing and Unpausing means that the game recognize 1P and 2P Start as different inputs? If so, whether emulation errors is involved in this process should be investigated.
And there's another problem. (But emulation errors may be not relevant here)
This game uses a Microphone feature. When you have a certain item, you can stop the enemy' s movement by shouting to Microphone. Fortunately, this function isn't useful in the TAS. What should I do when I want to use 2P Pause and Microphone at the same time? (FCEUX has a opotion of "Replace Port 2 Start With Microphone")
