Post by ALAKTORN

Posted: 1/18/2015 5:26 PM
(Edited: 1/20/2015 6:32 PM)

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Atma wrote:

I feel like if you got hit on the 5th jump, you could potentially set yourself up better for the 6th jump to kill further downtime, and save more time overall. Just a feel though, probably wouldn't amount to anything.

Interestingly enough, I tried this and while it does allow for better positioning, being on the highest platform is what causes him to perform his extra high jump. This gains frames for better positioning, but loses frames the same way yours does by the extra high jump. It's actually one frame faster than the first fight I posted, but 3 frames slower than the one that combines our inputs. I'm still playing around with it a little more, but I think his extra long jump is going to kill any positional advantages.

Posted: 1/18/2015 5:33 PM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

That was definitely the right timing for getting hit, but you went against my expectations by going left again, rather than abusing the invulnerability to get through him as he jumps right.

Posted: 1/18/2015 5:48 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

I went left to get onto the top platform so I can keep 100% uptime on him. Going right doesn't need invulnerability, because he will be out of reach no matter what if you jump from the slightly lower platform. This is what I used in the second fight. This is faster than going left, but only because it's the better pattern as seen in the second fight. Having invincibility doesn't help there. Taking a hit helps a lot when going left, only losing 10 frames for the knockback. If he then didn't do his additional high jump for 7th jump, it would be faster by 14 frames.

Posted: 1/18/2015 7:37 PM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

diggidoyo wrote:

I went left to get onto the top platform so I can keep 100% uptime on him. Going right doesn't need invulnerability, because he will be out of reach no matter what if you jump from the slightly lower platform. This is what I used in the second fight. This is faster than going left, but only because it's the better pattern as seen in the second fight. Having invincibility doesn't help there. Taking a hit helps a lot when going left, only losing 10 frames for the knockback. If he then didn't do his additional high jump for 7th jump, it would be faster by 14 frames.

It appears you didn't quite understand my pattern of thought about getting hit > saving frames, so I decided the fastest way to get you to understand was to do it myself. Link This is 15 frames faster than the wip you posted in terms of last boss hp line disappearing. I may not have fully optimised the achievement window, I have no idea, so you should check that.

Posted: 1/18/2015 8:35 PM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Former player

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

I don’t know what’s going on with this optimization anymore but I had a thought, if you space out your shots so that you always hit him first frame but you’re shooting from really far away, then you could shoot and get hit by a flame shot on the same frame to get invinicibility without losing as much time, because the distance the pellet travels to the boss is all gained time on your knock back timer. It’s probably useless but I wanted to get that out there.

Posted: 1/19/2015 7:25 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

ALAKTORN wrote:

if you space out your shots so that you always hit him first frame but you’re shooting from really far away, then you could shoot and get hit by a flame shot on the same frame to get invinicibility without losing as much time

That's a good point, and it could help on a later stage, but the problem here is magma man is right on top of us we actually need the invulnerability. When he's far away its easy to maneuver around his shots. I tried taking a hit with his shots up close but he takes too long to fire.

Atma wrote:

This is 15 frames faster than the wip you posted in terms of last boss hp line disappearing. I may not have fully optimised the achievement window, I have no idea, so you should check that.

Ah I see, go left, but still force him right! I went left too early which forced his bad pattern. Thanks for the input. It now only loses 15 frames from 100% uptime. The only last improvement may be to go under him again before the last few hits so the fight ends in the middle. The post-fight cutscene doesn't actually start until you are planted on the ground, so the final jump to middle actually loses almost 40 frames in all of these fights. I'll check that and fix it if possible. But thanks for your help. EDIT: So it actually worked! I sacrificed some time to maneuver under him a second time, but this allowed the cut-scene to begin 34 frames sooner, resulting in 24 more frames saved. In total, 28 frames were saved from the first fight I posted. This should be the last boss that we have to buster fight, though, so the rest should be a lot more straightforward. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20214721285246858 Link to video

Posted: 1/19/2015 4:46 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (862)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 517
Location: Hell...

I looked at the new and first ones again to compare them. The new version looks a lot smoother than the first one. So I'm guessing that it'll be following Weakness order after Galaxy Man?

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 1/19/2015 4:53 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

GoddessMaria15 wrote:

I looked at the new and first ones again to compare them. The new version looks a lot smoother than the first one. So I'm guessing that it'll be following Weakness order after Galaxy Man?

Not quite. After Galaxy Man we'll run through Hornet Man. This will give us the weapon we need for Jewel Man's mini boss. Then after Jewel Man we'll have the rush jet so we can finish Splash, Plug, and finally Tornado. Concrete>Magma>Galaxy>Hornet>Jewel>Splash>Plug>Tornado It's an odd route when only looking at the weaknesses, but it makes up for it mostly with the mini-boss fights. Especially since both the bosses we had to buster can still be beaten in under 10 seconds.

Posted: 1/19/2015 5:03 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (862)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 517
Location: Hell...

Ahh! After thinking about it, I can see why now. The Hornets hitting the Jewel Mid-boss as its in the air (at lease, I hope that I am thinking correctly about this...). I wish you all the best on this run and shall be following this! ^^

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 1/20/2015 11:09 PM

Post subject: Let's name this agwawaf day!

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Here is version 2 using agwawaf's idea. I believe it's faster, haven't had time to check. This version also utilizes Got4n's 1 frame ladder zip but unfortunately again we are facing bad boss manipulation. Galaxy Man is flying way too high. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20250404688289990 Edit: Just measured, in my first version using Concrete->Rush Coil->Concrete, the second gate began moving up at frame 24498. In this new smoother and sexier version, going with Rush Coil->Concrete, the gate began moving upwards at frame 24469. So that's a total gain of 29 frames using agwawaf's idea. Thank you sir!

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/21/2015 12:33 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Hmmm, I'm not sure. 29 frames would be half a second. I just compared the two with my crude video editing skills and it's a lot closer than that, if not slower. Your run is on the left, my old one is on the right. Few things to keep in mind, I missed two potential ladder zips, and a freeze-frame of the beginning shows your run gets a few frames of a headstart due to my shitty editing. Even with all that, it's practically dead even by 0:30. Then I pull ahead even more for some reason later on in the stage. The only thing that stuck out was a missed rush coil opportunity at 0:50. It didn't work in Concrete Man's stage because the floor was so low, but this time the floor is high enough to benefit from it. Link to video Thanks for the input file, though. I'll see if I can beat the beginning with the concrete shots again, then we can figure out what's missing from the rest of the stage. Hopefully it's enough to fix his pattern in the process. *knocks on wood*

Posted: 1/21/2015 7:24 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

I am quite surprised. I mean you do not have to be a scientist for instance to optimize climbing ladders. What am I missing? The only possible explanation is due to loading times assuming your video was made in 2012? If you did it recently with our Dolphin version then agwawaf's idea was slower. Really interested how this turns out.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/21/2015 12:37 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Yea, I'm actually surprised they are so close! But all it means is that I have to verify if using the concrete shot actually saves 75 frames or not. Zipping over the gap instead of taking damage probably saves around 30-35, platforming up to the teleporter instead of coiling might save around 25 more, then it's all about if that last part of the first screen makes up the rest. Thankfully, I kept these videos around all the years, though. The .dtm's would have been better, but this is the last stage I've ever TAS'd before. After this we wont have these reference points to go by, so we're going to have to be more analytical on our own.

Posted: 1/21/2015 12:39 PM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

diggidoyo wrote:

Yea, I'm actually surprised they are so close! But all it means is that I have to verify if using the concrete shot actually saves 75 frames or not. Zipping over the gap instead of taking damage probably saves around 30-35, platforming up to the teleporter instead of coiling might save around 25 more, then it's all about if that last part of the first screen makes up the rest. Thankfully, I kept these videos around all the years, though. The .dtm's would have been better, but this is the last stage I've ever TAS'd before. So after this we wont have these reference points to go by and so we're going to have to be more analytical on our own.

29 frames may be different times if he's talking about Frame and not VI, VI is in all case 60fps, Frame is fps dependant, Megaman might be 4 by 4 frames, take the VI counting! (wished I could help, but I have 6 tests ;()

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 1/21/2015 12:51 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

got4n wrote:

29 frames may be different times if he's talking about Frame and not VI, VI is in all case 60fps, Frame is fps dependant, Megaman might be 4 by 4 frames, take the VI counting! (wished I could help, but I have 6 tests ;()

True, but he mentioned numbers in the 24,000's. You're right that we're actually talking about the VI, but for continuity's sake between dolphin and the rest of tasvideos, I think it's fine we call it frames. 29 would be the number of times we "frame advanced."

Alright, check this out AngerFist. This is the farthest point I get ahead of rush coil in the beginning, plus a few extra frames for the editing error and missing the ladder zips. I just checked in Dolphin, and of course... it takes exactly 75 frames for your run to go from that point to mine, haha. Definitely got a hefty frame war here! No one said this would be easy. :/ Also, I found some of your lost frames, in that you actually lose a couple frames in the first teleporter room for using the coil instead of concrete. This is because your vertical acceleration as you enter the first teleporter is much higher than mine since I only jumped while you were boosted. This extra vertical acceleration is carried over when you exit the teleporter, and it takes you a few extra frames to be able to grab the ladder. There's more than that throughout the stage, but it could be little things like that that are adding up.

Posted: 1/23/2015 6:34 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Seems like a good idea, but you have to be close enough to him to get into the concrete block before it forms completely. He shoots around 10 frames to early to be able to zip off him. Plus, I don't have any C.shots to spare since I use every one in this stage.

Posted: 1/29/2015 7:17 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Hello! It's zee Fist again. I was bored so I figured I should try going all Concrete Shot route and this is what I have: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20446625195677497 Interestingly, it's "only" 5 frames slower compared with my Rush Coil version. I do think however you could probably save around 5-10 frames from this recent Concrete Shot version.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/29/2015 10:31 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Haha! God damn, that was slick. Love the ingenuity here. Can't believe it's such an intense frame war with this one level. I completely forgot about that weapon refill halfway through the level that makes something like this possible. Since it doesn't use rush, it automatically saves 150 frames (losing 32 frames to pick up the refill). The only hindrance here is you ended the stage with only 5 c.shots left, when 7 are needed to kill the boss. Means we'd have to remove 2 of the c. shots and somehow still save those 5 frames you mentioned. Perhaps if we reorganized the weapon usage, by removing the non-essential shots, we could utilize that trick I told you about with the Bunby Catcher near the end. His speed might be enough to save all the frames we need. Great work on this, though! Glad we're being so critical. I had considered this level complete after I TAS'd it back in 2011 and I hadn't considered anywhere near this many options. Dat filename tho.

Posted: 1/29/2015 10:45 PM
(Edited: 1/30/2015 11:23 PM)

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Glad you liked it my man :) I know just the place to save 2 Concrete Shots. Let's see how this turns out. Edit: I think I know a place to save at least 3-4 frames. Wooot! Edit 2: I actually managed to save 10+ frames (the long ladder, se below my moviefile for reference).

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/30/2015 11:21 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Here comes version 5? In order to save those two extra Concrete Shots, I had to take another hit :( http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20472615707661779 This version is 21 frames slower compared with the one I previously uploaded. There is one more version left for me to test, then I am completely done with this godforsaken stage.. Tased the whole stage so many times now. Edit: Diggi, my final version involves getting two big refills for Concrete Shot. Then I will max out zipping a lot of enemies. How many more Concrete Shots will I afford using grabbing a second big refill?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/31/2015 4:11 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

6th version done: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20488208451072215 I grabbed two big weapon refills and this is the result.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/2/2015 12:00 AM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

All dem rerecords! I'm glad you did all that though, because it looks like your double weapon refill strategy actually is the fastest route. From what I saw, this final run of yours is a mere 2 frames faster than your run with the rush coil and finishes with the right amount of weapon energy. I just finished combing through it and I saved 22 frames just tightening up a few spots but still following your same path. Then I counted how many frames each of your c.shots saved instead of taking damage. The double zip halfway through the level saved 40 frames for instance, so 20 frames per shot. That's pretty good. But the double zip near the beginning only saved 9 frames for the second shot (with the first shot being mandatory). Then there's another shot later on that kills the big orange blob that only saves 4 frames vs avoiding it. This means we can save those two shots for the bunby catcher strat, which I just tested out saves 87 frames. I'm going to finish the stage run tonight then go ahead and finish the boss if I can get the right RNG. EDIT: Alright, here it is. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20520706368644420 Saves a total of 90 or so frames off your last WIP and I went ahead and finished off Galaxy Man. The save file is actually 1 second slower than my WIP from 2011, but I checked them side by side and since it doesn't use rush coil at all, it's still about 2 full seconds faster for real time. Finally on to Hornet Man, a stage that hasn't been TAS'd at all yet! Link to video

Posted: 2/2/2015 5:53 AM
(Edited: 2/2/2015 6:01 AM)

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Diggi, I got to say, I love our collaboration. I do the rough work and you come like an angel and tidy things. Love that and fantastic work! The stage looks really optimized now and I am so glad we can move forward with good conscience :) Edit: For what it's worth, I tried that bunby strat to no avail.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/2/2015 5:55 AM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

AngerFist wrote:

Diggi, I got to say, I love our collaboration. I do the rough work and you come like an angel and tidy things. Love that and fantastic work!

Yea, it's just good to have extra sets of eyes on these things. Helps to catch things that slip by after TAS'ing the same sections over and over lol. I know how tedious that can get.

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